Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

DavidPT said:

You too, just like TribSigns and some others, are being ridiculous here with this interpretation of yours. You are not even remotely making sense of the text.

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It is ridiculous or foolish to the ones who lack spiritual discernment. Paul wrote:

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If one applies 70 AD to it, as an example, though I disagree 70 AD is meant, and that if one has the Holy Spirit meaning the living waters in verse 8, one is to believe that the Holy Spirit wasn't even sent out from Jerusalem before it was destroyed, but was instead sent out after it was destroyed? That idea alone destroys your interpretation. But it gets even worse for your interpretation when one factors in all of the following as well.

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Zechariah 14 has nothing to do with 70AD. Verse 1-5 was talking about the fall of the Old Testament Congregation as a representative of God's Kingdom. Not National Israel, nor the physical city of Jerusalem. God was talking about HIS PEOPLE, the Jews, the people of Old Testament congregation suffer judgment for coming against Messiah the Prince (read Daniel 9:26), thus their city becomes desolate. And God also made a way for the remnant to escape into the New Testament congregation.

We should remember to keep that distinction clear so as not to confuse God's actual word with their personal opinions or interpretations. There is no mention of Romans coming against Israel in 70AD, nor Russia coming against Israel in the end times. It is "the Lord" that fights against the nations that came against Jerusalem. Not physical nations. Rather it is spiritual warfare and Spiritual desolation and restoration. A Spiritual Temple, City and Reign, a Spiritual Kingdom, rule and a Spiritual King, Spiritual living water and splitting mountain. It's not Physical/Literal.

Zechariah 14:3

• "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

Did the Lord fight against the nations with spears and shields, or the jets, bombs? Was Rome or Russia the key players? Where is this stated in Scripture? It isn't! The real question is "how" did the Lord fight for HIS people of Jerusalem? Was it a physical battle among His congregation with physical armies setting Israel free from her enemies, or did He fight for them spiritually, freed them Spiritually and restore them Spiritually? When God talks about going forth fighting against the nations/gentiles to help Jerusalem who is besieged, He is illustrating that there was a battle going on in His congregation (represented by Jerusalem) and He would judge those that have forced His people into spiritual captivity. How will Christ's people overcome this war?


Revelation 12:7-11

• "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
• And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
• And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
• And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
• And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When was the great accuser cast down and salvation and the strength of His kingdom went forth, all the victory of His messengers accomplished strictly by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony! Period! You see...it is NOT a battle of swords, guns, Russia, Rome, or even right in front of God's throne in Heaven, but in the kingdom of heaven on earth. In this example, the Old Testament congregation! Hello?!

Likewise, when He says "as when" (or like) He fought in the day of battle, that is a reference to the deliverance of the children of Israel from Egypt at the red sea when it was parted to make a way that His children could escape their bondage. SAME PORTRAIT in Zechariah of the mountain cleaving in half and the great valley as a way of escape for His people. It is the portrait of the deliverance of His congregation! Get it?!

Exodus 14:12-14

• "Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
• And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
• The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace."

And indeed the Lord HIMSELF did fight for them and delivered them. Not in a "premillennial physical army battle", but God fought for them in that "spiritual" battle that made a way for them to enter into the promised land. This deliverance from Egypt prefigures Christ's deliverance of Israel from spiritual bondage in Egypt that was overcome at the cross. In this same way, Zechariah predicts the coming of Christ as when the Lord will fight for them, just as He fought in that day of battle. Spiritual warfare, a spiritual ending of it, and spiritual peace and safety established by the Deliverer. That can only mean that the battle against those nations the prophecy of Zechariah 14 says the Lord will fight for them, is also a spiritual battle, but just as effective as when He brought them through the Red Sea.

Exodus 15:3-4

• The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
• Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea."

The question is, how was the Lord a man of war in this? Did He have physical men fight against Pharaoh's army and use them to deliver His people through the red sea? Or was the battle spiritual and God being the man of war Himself that cast Pharaoh's army and chariots into the "sea," a spiritual (rather than literal/physical) battle? Think about it. The same with His battle in Zechariah which is patterned after this ay of battle that the Lord had for His people.

As for how that could possibly be Him fighting against those nations, this has already been addressed. Christ came conquering and to conquer, riding upon a white horse with a sword protruding from His mouth, and He fought:

Psalms 45:2-6

• " Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
• Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty./i]
• And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
• Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
• Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre."

Confirmed also that this spoke of Christ in Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:8

• "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

That prophesy in Psalms spoke of a spiritual battle, spiritually men who were the enemies of the King were falling by the arrows of His bow. It wasn't a physical war against the people who fought against Jerusalem, but a spiritual one. And Jerusalem's warfare was ended, and in this Christ, her iniquity was pardoned, she is freed from her captivity, she is brought peace, and she dwells safely, where Christ now rules in New Testament Congregation with Salvation message for both Jews and Gentiles! You can continue to look at a physical nation in the middle east for the fulfillment all you want, but clearly "all" has been fulfilled concerning the nation Israel. Her kingdom has been taken and given to another that salvation may go to the whole world, including Israel. In this case, the CHURCH!

Psalms 2:5-9

• "Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
• Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
• I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
• Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
• Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

It has been done! Not 'will be done." God's people Israel are being saved, not will be saved at some future date. God is no respecter of persons, there is a remnant chosen by grace from "every" nation.

Selah!

DavidPT said:

Why do some of you refuse to at least be reasonable about some of these things?

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Because they simply cannot handle the idea that they will be involved in what is so graphically described and their only recourse is to spiritualize it all.

Then, as we who do see an at least partial; literal future fulfillment of the end times prophesies, we are accused of lacking Spiritual discernment!
This accusation is rude and unjustifiable. They will be Judged for it. James 4:11-12

TribulationSigns said:

It's not Physical/Literal.

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Quite wrong.
The ancient events such as the Flood, Exodus and Jesus Advent, were physical and literal.
We can expect a literal reset of our civilization, as the Lord did in the days of Noah and your lengthy post is just useless avoidance theology.

Quite wrong.

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Well, let me know when the frogs will literally come out of a human men's mouths. Let me know when the rivers and seas will transform into the blood. Let me know when the locusts come out of the crack of the Earth to attack men that send them to hospital for 5 months. Let me know when a woman floating in space, about to give birth to a child. Let me know when a huge seven-headed animal coming out of the Atlantic ocean? You want physical/literal? Good luck!

The ancient events such as the Flood, Exodus and Jesus Advent, were physical and literal.

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So are you saying that since the "ancient events" like the Flood and Exodus were fulfilled physically or literally, the events in the book of Revelation will also be fulfilled physically and literally? Humm?

See...God is making known mysteries that were before unknown concerning His magnificent salvation plan, what was written and meant by it in the Old Testament, and what is future prophesy, through cryptic language, imagery, and symbols. It is revealed that the Holy Scriptures all have a "deeper spiritual" aspect to them that is far above the very literal or physical meanings. In the book of Revelation, God wants us to understand the mystery in prophecies so that through His Spirit we might know the eternal nature of the gospel. By using symbols like Lampstands/Candlesticks, locusts, Stars, Dragons, blood, frogs, or the Moon in these contexts, it is made manifest that He is talking about things infinitely more important than the physical objects of the world or universe. Through Revelation, it is revealed to us the true deeper Spiritual meaning of these symbols as "representing" truths that were kept secret from the beginning. God Himself gives us (through John) an example from which we can discern the interpretations. He tells the apostle John to write in this revealing:

Revelation 1:19-20

• "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
• The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

For example, "Mystery Revealed!" The 7 stars are "revealed" to symbolize 7 messengers (Not Angels, or physical balls of fire out in space), and the candlesticks or lampstands are revealed to symbolize the 7 churches of these messengers. Mystery Revealed! So yes, the truth of this cryptic language is made known to God's servants so that they will know the truth of the things that were, the things that are, and the things that are going to be. And that's exactly what we find in this book.

And in the past, you were unable to answer my questions about the frogs of Revelation 16 as an example:

Rev 16:12-14
(12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
ou believe that the plagues of Frogs in Exodus were literally. And you are right. However, it does have spiritual signification that applies to the frogs in the book of Revelation. That does not mean there will be frogs literally coming out of the mouths of men. You need spiritual discernment to understand what God is really talking about the frogs here! I have explained this before, yet you could not receive the Truth. Guess you can't stand lengthy posts

We can expect a literal reset of our civilization, as the Lord did in the days of Noah

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Reset of civilization? Ahem...

and your lengthy post is just useless avoidance theology.

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Well, then don't read it. It does not stop me from sharing my teachings with other people. Some people will receive it, some won't. I am not worried about what you think about my post. I will leave the judgment to God.

keras said:

This accusation is rude and unjustifiable. They will be Judged for it. James 4:11-12

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Indeed, the Lord judges, and I am comfortable with that.

Everyone would have to speak for themselves, but I'd say that the vast majority take Genesis as a literal historical narrative. For example, God created Adam on the sixth literal day, from literal dirt, of the literal earth, etc., etc.

However, that does not then mean that there are not places in Genesis where God has not divinely inspired written some very allegorical things which are "Spiritually Discerned" by the children of God.

For example:

Genesis 3:15

• "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This very literal story has a very "allegorical" meaning that was divinely placed there by God. The serpent represents Satan, the Woman represents the Church, and her seed is Christ who shall bruise Satan's head with His heel. These things are clearly "Spiritually Discerned" by most very literal-mined studious Theologians, without there being one single passage that says, "Take this Allegorically." So how do they all come to this very same conclusion? The very same way I have been explaining here all along. They study the scriptures diligently, comparing scripture with scripture, and they let the Bible interpret itself. They are led by the Spirit to do so.

So that symbolism is that the seed of the woman, or Christ (Revelation 12:4-5), would in due time come and wound the head of the enemy, destroying the works of the devil. Ultimately, putting Satan under His foot.

1st John 3:8-9

• "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
• Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

The seed is what bruises the head of Satan, that old serpent. And this is all "Allegorical interpretation." And it is all Biblically justified. And because Christ has power over the serpent, He has given it to the Church that the serpent is subject unto her also.

Luke 10:19

• "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Ephesians 2:15-16

• "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Mark 16:18

• "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Just because some Christians have an aversion to understanding the spiritual/metaphorical nature of God's word and the allegorical aspects of scripture, doesn't mean that there is no justification for such spiritual understanding.

It's so easy simply to say we shouldn't take scripture Spiritually, but it's impossible to prove it because the Bible is "through and through" a very Spiritual, Allegorical, as well as Metaphorical book. From the story of the Serpent to the story of Hagar and Sarah representing the two covenants. From the symbolism of Lambs, to the historical metaphors in Israel being told not to mix two types of seeds in a field. From tearing down a house that has the plague in it so that not one stone remains upon another, to Jonah suffering in a fish for 3 days and 3 nights. From Israel delivered from bondage in Egypt, to the golden candlesticks that were to be burned continually in the Holy Temple. ..the list is endless. And these things are discerned spiritually, and not by everyone.

So for anyone to simply say we shouldn't see an allegorical meaning, or a symbolic meaning, or a Spiritual meaning to historical events, if we don't read an actual command to, "Interpret this symbolically," would be to not really understand how scripture was authored, or why it is absolutely unlike any other book that could "EVER" be written!

So yes, Spiritual discernment is important and only can be granted by the Spirit of Christ.

TribulationSigns said:

So yes, Spiritual discernment is important and only can be granted by the Spirit of Christ.

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Sure, it isn't hard to know what is allegories and metaphors. Such as the frogs.
What does seem to be hard for you is to discern the literal meaning of those 'frogs', which is actually given to us in Revelation 16:14
Why even bring up such a silly accusation against me?

PS I still think your avatar is ugly and provocative.

Thus Zechariah indicates that, although he speaks in terms of the old city of Jerusalem and land of Judah, this holy city and promised land will be part of the new creation. The earth as his readers know it will have passed away.[3]

MacKay helps to illumine the significance of the “living waters”:

Jerusalem was always poorly provided with water, but the renewed city is the source of a divinely provided supply. Zechariah here resumes the picture presented by Joel and Ezekiel of the Temple as a source of water (Joel 3:18; Ezek. 47:1–12). This is not just typical of physical change, but of the spiritual blessings that water represents. It is ‘living’ water flowing freshly from a spring or fountain, and symbolic of true spiritual life given in salvation (Jer. 2:13; John 4:10; 7:38). This looks back to the river of Paradise, when ‘a river watering the garden flowed from Eden’ (Gen. 2:10), and it looks forward to Paradise restored…. Truly ‘there is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy place where the Most High dwells’ (Ps. 46:4).

Unlike Ezekiel’s river which flowed only to the east (Ezek. 47:1, an embarrassment for those who take both prophecies to refer to the same literal future event), the water splits half to the eastern sea, that is the Dead Sea, and half to the western sea, that is, the Mediterranean. In this way it is available for all the land. And it is available all the time, in summer and in winter. Many streams in Palestine were only winter torrents which dried up in the heat of summer, when the need for water was at its greatest. Not so this source of supply. It is available all the year round. There is no disruption of the bliss of the new creation ‘for the old order of things has passed away’ (Rev. 21:4).[4]

Verse 9 expresses the consummated, universal submission and worship given to the one true God in the age to come. “And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.” Night forever gone. The river of living water. All the earth serving and worshipping the Lord. If these things do not point us to John’s vision of the eternal state in Revelation 21 and 22, I doubt much will.

https://cbtseminary.org/an-amillennial-interpretation-of-zechariah-14-4-of-8/
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I wonder why there are no Amils in this thread that agree with this Amil in this link? At least that Amil is not making total nonsense out of verse 8 like Amils participating in this thread are.

I agree with this Amil about verse 8 to a degree. He is def correct that it is meaning during the new heavens and new earth, which has been my position all along. Why anyone would dispute that, Whether they are Premil or whether they are Amil, is beyond me, especially the fact verse 8 is meaning during the time of verse 11, and that the new Jerusalem is the only Jerusalem that could possibly fit that verse.

keras said:

Sure, it isn't hard to know what is allegories and metaphors. Such as the frogs.
What does seem to be hard for you is to discern the literal meaning of those 'frogs', which is actually given to us in Revelation 16:14
Why even bring up such a silly accusation against me?

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I am waiting for your explanation for frogs in Revelation 16 that come out of the mouths of the dragon, beast, and the false prophets. How do you understand it? Remember they are spirits of the devils. What does it coming out of the mouth signify, humm? Do you actually believe that your human antichrist and false prophet will spew literal frogs out of their mouth if it is your literal approach of Revelation 16, don't you? If not, then are you going to try spiritually to interpret it to fit your doctrine? Based on what Scripture?

I am waiting to hear from you.

PS I still think your avatar is ugly and provocative.

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Okay. And?

sovereigngrace said:

That is far from a typical Amil interpretation.

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It's one thing when Amils don't want to consider anything Premils propose, but why be closed-minded to what other Amils propose because their interpretation of something is not the typical Amil interpretation of that something in question?

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


How is it possible that this can already be true in this age before the 2nd coming even happens first? How can verse 8 not be meaning during the time of verse 11? How can verse 11 be meaning before or even during the time of verse 2, rather than after the time of verse 2?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


Does it look like Jerusalem is safely inhabited at the time, one of the requirements for verse 11?


Obviously then, the fulfillment of verse 11 is meaning a time post the fulfillment of verse 2. How can it not be? That indicates that the fulfillment of verse 8 is also meaning a time post that of verse 2, the fact verse 8 is meaning during the time of verse 11.

The question is, since verse 8 and 11 are clearly meaning during the time of the new Jerusalem, and that you can't have the NJ without there first being the new heavens and new earth, can this even work with Premil?'

I have to say yes, based on verses 16-19, since that too is obviously meaning a time post that of verse 2, plus it's meaning after the fulfillment of verse 12, and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled. Verses 16-19 are clearly meaning during the time of verse 11, which then presents a major problem if there is not a thousand years after the 2nd coming. That means that what is recorded in verses 16-19, it will be like that for all eternity, that some will be under the threat of punishment for refusing to come up to Jerusalem or else. But if there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, this at least provides an end to this threat of punishment eventually.

Apparently, Amils participating in this thread don't even think Zechariah 14 locates Jesus on earth at anytime in this chapter, except for maybe verse 4, which some apply literally, to be meaning when Christ lived on the earth during His first coming. Anyone paying closer attention to the text though, they can easily see that verse 4 is meaning a time chronologically after that of verse 2, not a time chronologically prior to it instead.

When it comes to a chapter such as Zechariah 14, what it seems to boil down to, how good is one at playing connect the dots?

TribulationSigns said:

I am waiting for your explanation for frogs in Revelation 16 that come out of the mouths of the dragon, beast, and the false prophets. How do you understand it? Remember they are spirits of the devils. What does it coming out of the mouth signify, humm?

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Something such as this, I'm likely more apt to maybe agree with you about, whatever your interpretation of those things might be. But as to your interpretation of Zechariah 14:8, no way do I even want to entertain that since it comes across as complete nonsense to me, the fact verse 8 is meaning during the time of verse 11, and that the time of verse 11 hasn't even arrived yet.

TribulationSigns said:

Okay. And?

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I don't know why some find that avatar to be an issue? I have zero problem with it myself.

DavidPT said:

Something such as this, I'm likely more apt to maybe agree with you about, whatever your interpretation of those things might be. But as to your interpretation of Zechariah 14:8, no way do I even want to entertain that since it comes across as complete nonsense to me, the fact verse 8 is meaning during the time of verse 11, and that the time of verse 11 hasn't even arrived yet.

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Zec 14:11
(11) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Do you honestly think God is talking about Jews living safely within the city border in the Middle East?

Let me explain something here:

Zechariah 14 describes the great conflict or warfare of God's congregation (symbolically Jerusalem) and how her enemies (professed believers) bring her by force into spiritual captivity (Matthew 11:12). It explains how the coming of Christ ends the warfare and brings comfort to Jerusalem by setting her captives free and judging her enemies! He is talking about the Old Testament Congregation at this first coming of Christ!

The language of "dividing the spoil" in the midst of Jerusalem is to signify the people (who are the spoil) being taken by the enemy. All these descriptive prophesies of Zechariah chapter 14 must be understood symbolically. The enemy took the spoil of the kingdom (which were God's people) and the Lord Jesus Christ brings restoration by defeating them and freeing the spoil from this enemy. Christ spoke of this in His parable about His kingdom, His defeat of the ruler Satan and His binding and spoiling of that house.

Matthew 12:25-29

• "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
• And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
• And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
• But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
• Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

This is what Revelation 20 is about. Christ has bind Satan so that He could spoil His people from Satan's spiritual bondage. As I have explained many time, Christ said that if He had cast out Satan by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God had come unto them. Satan is the enemy, this strong man illustrated here in this parable, and his spoil are those whom Christ came to release from bondage under Satan. But first Satan had to be bound. The same Kingdom (The Old Testament congregation at that time) that Christ said suffered violence and was taken by force by the enemies of God. Jesus took a remnant from those in control of the kingdom, returned the captivity (the spoil), and gave the kingdom to another (Matthew 21:43). All of these things of Zechariah 14, including the gathering of the nations/gentiles (unsaved professed believers) against Jerusalem as judgment, the Mount of Olives (verses 2-4), the removal of the mountain (symbolically kingdom), the fleeing to the valley, the great earthquake (verses 5-6), the neither light nor dark, the Living Water flowing from Jerusalem, earthquake and the one king over all the earth (Zechariah 14:7-9), it turning as a plain, Jerusalem again safely inhabited while there is judgment for her enemies as plagues (Zechariah 10-15), the assemblage of all spoils from all nations at spiritually Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, the holiness to some and judgment to others, and the use of "every pot in Jerusalem and Judah" for sacrifice (Zechariah 16-21), is all part of this prophecy of the coming of Christ and must be understood symbolically.

When Zechariah 14:1 says "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee," that is describing the great conflict or warfare in God's kingdom on earth, the Old Testament Congregation as a representative of God's Kingdom at that time, with the enemies that spoil her, before Christ comes to comfort Jerusalem, spoil the enemies and give the kingdom to others who will bring forth fruits. That is the New Testament Congregation which brings gospels to the ends of the Earth where she can bring forth fruits! See, God was talking about Old Testament congregation being in apostasy and conflict in Israel during the days of Christ when He came and took the spoil of the enemy. As also Christ Himself taught in Luke chapter 11 when He said that "all that were not with Him were against Him." In other words, they were the enemies that fought against Him.

Luke 11:20-22

• "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
• When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
• But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
• He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

All that was not with Christ were the enemies that were gathered together against Jerusalem. He was talking about the Scribes, the Pharisees, and all people deceived by them. The enemies all came against Christ at the Cross. As it is written about His people coming against Christ!

Joh 2:18-21
(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

It is a sign that Christ's own people, the Jews, will come against him. Destroy the temple (by putting him to death). The Old Testament Congregation as a kingdom representative fell along with Christ's death. This is what splitting the mountain (kingdom/old testament congregation) referred to. But Christ did rebuild the temple in three days. That is the New Testament congregation! This is why Christ has made a way for His remnant (believers) to flee from the Old Testament congregation to a New Testament congregation where they can dwell safely IN CHRIST. During the New Testament Period, Christians are able to keep the feast of tabernacle IN CHRIST! A study about the Feast of Tabernacle can be read here.

Yet there are some people (especially premills) with the carnal mind (lack of spiritual discernment) who will insist that Zechariah will be fulfilled literally in the future with Jews in Jerusalem or Israel, waiting for armed conflict with an army of Antichrist from Europe or whatever, where the Jews will need to flee to some mountains in Jordan waiting for Christ to come and touch his feet literally upon mount olive with a great earthquake and with physical water flowing from Jerusalem, and all people will come and worship Christ in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, blah blah. Sorry this is not what God talked about. The chapter has all been fulfilled spiritually and it has everything to do with God's congregation of Israel, first the Jews, then the Gentiles. Not your Jewish friends in the Middle East.

I don't know why some find that avatar to be an issue? I have zero problem with it myself.

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Exhibit A! A proof that not everyone has a problem with my avatar. Therefore it's just a personal opinion or feeling as an excuse for some people making a big deal about avatar as a distraction from having a serious bible discussion. It usually happens when someone could not defend his doctrine during discussion.

Timtofly said:

You mean Revelation 20, that your private interpretation and opinion of Recapitulation literally changes the text of Revelation even though John warned:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Premil do not add Christ to the text of Revelation 20. We just see it as a continuation of John's writings, despite the added chapter and verse markings. I wonder if adding numbers to John's letter counts towards that curse? Recapitulation is an addition to the reading of the text. We do not even have to interpret symbolic terms. Satan, the FP, and the beast show up at Armageddon. The FP and the beast are defeated by Jesus on the earth. Satan is bound for 1000 years. The FP and beast are in the lake of fire for 1000 years. Simple reading comprehension. It is the NT. Do not even need the OT for corroboration, since you take issue with comparing Scripture with Scripture, unless it suits your theology.

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This post is beyond ridiculous. Amil obviously interprets the text differently than premil, but in no way, shape or form are we trying to add to the prophecy. That verse you quoted is talking about someone purposely adding things to the prophecy which Amils are not doing. If our interpretation is wrong, so be it. But, we are not purposely trying to add to the text.

TribulationSigns said:

Zec 14:11
(11) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Do you honestly think God is talking about Jews living safely within the city border in the Middle East?

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The first thing for you to realize about my position, I take that to mean during the new heavens and new earth. There is zero reason to think that the NJ will be located any other place besides in the ME. It for sure won't be located in Texas, or anywhere in this country. Will there be Jews living there at the time? Of course there will be. But there will also be Gentiles living there as well. How can I know that for sure?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Is verse 3 meaning only for the Jews? No. It is meaning for both Jew and Gentile, it is meaning for the church. And guess where Revelation 21-22 undeniably locates Jesus after He has returned? In the new Jerusalem, and that verse 3 above states, that where I am, there ye may be also.


As to Zechariah 14, it begins with the Great trib. It progresses into the 2nd coming. It spans into the new heavens and new earth. It is silly IMO to think that nothing in Zechariah 14 involves anything beyond this present age we are currently living in. There are even Amils that agree with this, but that none of them agree there is a place for a thousand years to fit anywhere in Zechariah 14, though.

TribulationSigns said:

Exhibit A! A proof that not everyone has a problem with my avatar. Therefore it's just a personal opinion or feeling as an excuse for some people making a big deal about avatar as a distraction from having a serious bible discussion. It usually happens when someone could not defend his doctrine during discussion.

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I refuse to discuss issues with someone who displays a confrontational avatar and whose posts are bullying and overbearing.
Anyway, as your beliefs are so wrong and unbiblical, so fixed in error, there is nothing I can do.

Timtofly said:

Not literal fire then? They just spiritually vanish into the lake of fire? Teleported?

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What are you talking about? Of course it will be literal fire and I didn't say otherwise. I believe 2 Peter 3:10-12 is the same event as Rev 20:9 and they are talking about literal fire coming down upon Christ's enemies on the earth.

Should this not be an ongoing generational thing for the last 1991 years? Why does only the last generation on earth benefit from this victory?

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Again, what are you talking about? What does what you're saying here have to do with Revelation 20:7-9?

chad kincham said:

The early church believed in the sabbath-millennium, and Barnabas, who was with Paul in ministry, taught in his epistle, that God took six days to complete creation, and rested on day seven, as a foreshadow of there being six thousand years, or days, from Adam to the second coming of Jesus, with the millennial reign being the seven thousandth year, or seventh day, aka Gods sabbath rest for His people, which Hebrews 4 touches on,

When Jesus returns in flaming fire, a sword, and the wrath of God, He wipes out evil people, lands on mount olive, splits it in two, with a huge chasm in between, and the kingdom’s of this world become His kingdom, Revelation 11:15, and His followers reign and rule with Him on the earth.

During the millennium Satan is bound in chains, and the millennial reign is an object lesson for all creation, of the difference between Satan being god of this world for thousands of years, with all the evil, and suffering he caused, and Jesus ruling the nations for a thousand years, with peace, no evil, and long life for those in His kingdom.

Then Satan is loosed in order to tempt those born during the millennium, and he immediately deceived enough people to raise an army to surround Jerusalem where Jesus rules from, but they are destroyed by fire from heaven.

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You are saying that the purpose of the millennium would be to teach people the difference between 1) Jesus ruling the nations for a thousand years with the resulting peace, lack of evil and long life and 2) Satan being god of this world for thousands of years. And, yet, Rev 20:7-9 tells us that a number "as the sand of the seashore" would rebel against Christ when the thousand years ended.

Why would such a vast number of people choose Satan over Christ despite having seen how superior the conditions on earth would be during Christ's reign compared to Satan's reign? Wouldn't someone have to be completely insane to pick Satan over Christ after seeing firsthand for a long time how much superior things are when Christ is in charge compared to Satan?

friend of said:

Actually, it's always been this way. Just read book of Job.

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So, do you think the first coming of Christ had no impact on Satan then?

How do you interpret passages like these:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

DavidPT said:

You too, just like TribSigns and some others, are being ridiculous here with this interpretation of yours. You are not even remotely making sense of the text.

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I agree if you insist on interpreting it literally. But, figuratively, I believe our interpretation makes plenty of sense. You have a very strong tendency to take things literally, so it's not a surprise to me that you would have trouble seeing a figurative interpretation of any scripture verse, including Zechariah 14:8.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.


The first thing to note, this is meaning after the fulfillment of all of the following first---Zechariah 14:1-5, not prior to those events instead. Whatever period of time one applies to verse 2, verse 8 is meaning post that time. If one applies 70 AD to it, as an example, though I disagree 70 AD is meant, and that if one has the Holy Spirit meaning the living waters in verse 8, one is to believe that the Holy Spirit wasn't even sent out from Jerusalem before it was destroyed, but was instead sent out after it was destroyed? That idea alone destroys your interpretation. But it gets even worse for your interpretation when one factors in all of the following as well.

Verse 8 is meaning during the following period of time, obviously.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

No reasonable person could possibly think verse 11 is meaning a time prior to 70 AD, the fact that verse indicates of Jerusalem, that there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. That was clearly not the case in 70 AD. The only part of that verse that was true in 70 AD at the time, is this---And men shall dwell in it. There certainly were men still dwelling in it at the time, right up until the Romans slaughtered them and destroyed the city. Which then obviously contradicts this part of verse 11 if prior to 70 AD is supposed to be meant rather than post 70 AD instead---and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Why do some of you refuse to at least be reasonable about some of these things? That doesn't mean you have to agree with Premil in order to be reasonable about some of these things. The idea is to try and make sense of the text, and not try and make nonsense of the text instead.

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I believe it is reasonable to believe that much of Zechariah 14 is figurative rather than literal. Who are you to tell me what I should find to be reasonable? That's not up to you. And, you are the one saying that verse 11 has a future literal fulfillment and is talking about the same time period as verse 8. I'm not obligated to agree with you about that.

And then there's the major issue of future animal sacrifices being performed as sin offerings that you have to explain if you insist on interpreting Zechariah 14 literally. I believe you've said that you don't believe animal sacrifices will be reinstituted, so if you don't take that part literally then why are you so insistent that other parts of Zechariah 14 have to be taken literally?

DavidPT said:

It's one thing when Amils don't want to consider anything Premils propose, but why be closed-minded to what other Amils propose because their interpretation of something is not the typical Amil interpretation of that something in question?

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Why are you judging Amils like this? I am not closed-minded. If I was then I'd still be a premil. And who are you to say what we are considering or not? I have considered all possible views and Amil (my version of it) makes the most sense to me by far.

I disagree with this particular Amil view that you shared here from MacKay because I believe the entire earth will be burned up when Jesus returns, so it doesn't make sense to me to think that Jerusalem will still exist on the new earth. He also said something about the temple (a physical temple) being a source of water at that time? How can that be in light of what it says here:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.