Holy Spirit

Joyous Song said:

Shalom Santoso, my friend, I do not think you fully understand Paul’s words you quoted in Romans 7.17. It is not followed by, him seeking the L-rd to deliver him, as he was already told “My Grace is sufficient”. This after he admitting, “wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from my sin?”

He answers: “Thanks be to G-d through Jesus Christ our L-rd! So then, I myself serve the Law of G-d with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” 24-25

So he did not repent because of the cross, he had tried and failed over and over again. He threw his weakness to HaMoshiach Who replied, “My Grace is sufficient” which allows him to serve HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and to perfect himself in all other areas, except for this one issue of the Law were he cannot overcome. He however is covered - period!

I admit I also struggled to understand this myself. So I suppose another short story might clarify this issue of what exactly “My Grace is sufficient” means.

Back in 1996 I had a dream: “First comes the interest; then comes the principle”. From this dream and many more dreams, visions and coincidences that in time were no longer are seen as such, my husband and I started to learn Jewish Laws as HaShem’s Will in our lives. So we took up a Jewish identity, one Law, and measure: by one Law and measure, a little here; a little there.

All I remember from back then is our first few Passovers were far from anything Jewish, yet as the years passed we grew better and better at keeping these traditions. By the end of the High Holy Days, last year, to look into our household and an Orthodox Jewish household, you would have seen Orthodox Jews.

Then around Purim when we started preparing for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, I faced the perfect storm of problems. First our eldest daughter developed a strange case of dizziness and everything she ate, she threw up. Around the same time we had enough money to remove our youngest daughters wisdom teeth and one molar. She ended up on a highly limited diet which weakened her considerably.

And if that’s not all, we were grace by the Bishop announcing my husband was accepted into the priesthood. He was to face a crash course over the next two months and if all went as planned he be ordained sometimes in the late spring (it will now be early May).

All this came down just as I was starting to clean for Passover. So instead of having help from two daughters and my husband, suddenly I had extra cooking, household cleaning for four, had three different diets to prepare, the weekly Shabbos prep and cleaning and a house to kosher for Passover!

I’m not going to go into koshering for Passover, only that doing so while taking care of so many people and keeping the weekly sabbath was impossible. Then I had the dream where I was told, “MY Grace is sufficient; whatever you can do, will be enough!”

Now, we are told once we reach a level of holiness we are never to go backward. The race toward perfection is forward only! Yet in the situation above, I fell short not because I was lazy, or disobedient but because so many things, outside my control, were set up to make keeping Passover perfectly, impossible. So in the race Paul describes I did not stop, I backed up, for a time…

So did I commit a sin? Technically, according to Jewish laws, yes. Yet like Paul I’m covered by the cross because the LAW any LAW even the laws against homosexuality is NOT Salvaic. We keep laws because they teach, help us become closer to G-d, because He said so and can discipline us, yet not for salvation. Salvation comes from the Cross, thus we are indeed free to keep His Law perfectly, in our hearts; even as we fall short because of our human condition.

My promise “His Grace is Sufficient”, was only for this Passover and Chag Hamotzo; Next year things will return to normal. So I admit, I was puzzled why did I face this year this “perfect storm”. Now I believe it was so I better understood His words about my niece and thus all homosexuals. If His Grace is sufficient, her redemption was never at risk because Laws, all laws are under Grace where the Redeemed fall short through no fault of their own, are covered.]

And if His Grace is sufficient as regards her and her partners love, then all of Romans 7.21-25 applies to them and their love. As you said: “If you love your niece, seek the L-rd’s help to deliver her.” We did last year when we found out, got that message that His Grace covers them and then when, like you, we did not understand that remark, faced that perfect storm just as Passover cleaning started: we learn the true meaning to: “My Grace is sufficient”.

Put another way no Law supersedes Grace even the Law of marriage being between man and woman:


“For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Curse be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no man is justified before G-d by the Law; for “righteousness shall live by faith,” but the Law does not rest on faith, for “he who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become that curse for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree”...” Gal.3.10-13

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Shalom JS,
Consider this !

Have you not heard this :
And He ( Christ ) came and preached peace to you who were FAR OFF and peace to those who were NEAR. -Ephesians 2:17

Aren’t we the Gentiles who were far off from God ? Are the Jews who were near God ? Yes, our Lord have come and preached PEACE to us, both the Jews and Gentiles.

As we have heard:
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were FAR OFF have been brought near by the blood of Christ. -Ephesians 2:13

For He (Christ) himself is OUR PEACE, who has made US BOTH ONE and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility -Ephesians 2:14

So we who Gentiles who were once far off have brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He (Christ) Himself is OUR PEACE, who has made us BOTH ( Gentiles and Jews ) ONE and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility ; yes our Lord have broken the wall of hostility between the Jews and Gentiles !

How He has done that ? This is what we have heard:
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, -Ephesians 2:15

and might RECONCILE US BOTH TO GOD IN ONE BODY through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. -Ephesians 2:16

So our Lord Jesus Christ who is our peace has reconciled us both (the Jews and Gentiles) to God in one body through the cross.

Likewise,we heard:
as a plan for the fullness of time, TO UNITE ALL THINGS IN HIM, things in heaven and THINGS ON EARTH. -Ephesians 1:10

That is why we heard:
Now IF PERFECTION had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), WHAT FURTHER NEED would there have been FOR ANOTHER PRIEST to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. -Hebrews 7:12

Since this is said about our Lord Jesus Christ:

For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." -Hebrews 7:17

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness -Hebrews 7:18
(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. -Hebrews 7:19

So Levitical priesthood after the order of Aaron made nothing perfect, therefore it was set aside.

Christ as our priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, NECESSARILY made changes in the law.

Just Moses have affirmed:
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers'it is to him you shall listen' -Deuteronomy 18:15

This is what God has spoken through Moses :
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. -Deuteronomy 18:18

And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. -Deuteronomy 18:19

So those whether they are Jews and Gentiles, are to listen the word that God put in the mouth of Christ and Christ shall speak to us all that God command Him.

As we also have heard:
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, -Hebrews 1:1
but IN THESE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. -Hebrews 1:2

So we are called to obey what God COMMAND through Christ.

Joyous Song said:

Shalom Santoso, my friend, I do not think you fully understand Paul’s words you quoted in Romans 7.17. It is not followed by, him seeking the L-rd to deliver him, as he was already told “My Grace is sufficient”. This after he admitting, “wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from my sin?”

He answers: “Thanks be to G-d through Jesus Christ our L-rd! So then, I myself serve the Law of G-d with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” 24-25

So he did not repent because of the cross, he had tried and failed over and over again. He threw his weakness to HaMoshiach Who replied, “My Grace is sufficient” which allows him to serve HaShem with whole heart, mind and soul and to perfect himself in all other areas, except for this one issue of the Law were he cannot overcome. He however is covered - period!

I admit I also struggled to understand this myself. So I suppose another short story might clarify this issue of what exactly “My Grace is sufficient” means.

Back in 1996 I had a dream: “First comes the interest; then comes the principle”. From this dream and many more dreams, visions and coincidences that in time were no longer are seen as such, my husband and I started to learn Jewish Laws as HaShem’s Will in our lives. So we took up a Jewish identity, one Law, and measure: by one Law and measure, a little here; a little there.

All I remember from back then is our first few Passovers were far from anything Jewish, yet as the years passed we grew better and better at keeping these traditions. By the end of the High Holy Days, last year, to look into our household and an Orthodox Jewish household, you would have seen Orthodox Jews.

Then around Purim when we started preparing for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, I faced the perfect storm of problems. First our eldest daughter developed a strange case of dizziness and everything she ate, she threw up. Around the same time we had enough money to remove our youngest daughters wisdom teeth and one molar. She ended up on a highly limited diet which weakened her considerably.

And if that’s not all, we were grace by the Bishop announcing my husband was accepted into the priesthood. He was to face a crash course over the next two months and if all went as planned he be ordained sometimes in the late spring (it will now be early May).

All this came down just as I was starting to clean for Passover. So instead of having help from two daughters and my husband, suddenly I had extra cooking, household cleaning for four, had three different diets to prepare, the weekly Shabbos prep and cleaning and a house to kosher for Passover!

I’m not going to go into koshering for Passover, only that doing so while taking care of so many people and keeping the weekly sabbath was impossible. Then I had the dream where I was told, “MY Grace is sufficient; whatever you can do, will be enough!”

Now, we are told once we reach a level of holiness we are never to go backward. The race toward perfection is forward only! Yet in the situation above, I fell short not because I was lazy, or disobedient but because so many things, outside my control, were set up to make keeping Passover perfectly, impossible. So in the race Paul describes I did not stop, I backed up, for a time…

So did I commit a sin? Technically, according to Jewish laws, yes. Yet like Paul I’m covered by the cross because the LAW any LAW even the laws against homosexuality is NOT Salvaic. We keep laws because they teach, help us become closer to G-d, because He said so and can discipline us, yet not for salvation. Salvation comes from the Cross, thus we are indeed free to keep His Law perfectly, in our hearts; even as we fall short because of our human condition.

My promise “His Grace is Sufficient”, was only for this Passover and Chag Hamotzo; Next year things will return to normal. So I admit, I was puzzled why did I face this year this “perfect storm”. Now I believe it was so I better understood His words about my niece and thus all homosexuals. If His Grace is sufficient, her redemption was never at risk because Laws, all laws are under Grace where the Redeemed fall short through no fault of their own, are covered.]

And if His Grace is sufficient as regards her and her partners love, then all of Romans 7.21-25 applies to them and their love. As you said: “If you love your niece, seek the L-rd’s help to deliver her.” We did last year when we found out, got that message that His Grace covers them and then when, like you, we did not understand that remark, faced that perfect storm just as Passover cleaning started: we learn the true meaning to: “My Grace is sufficient”.

Put another way no Law supersedes Grace even the Law of marriage being between man and woman:


“For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Curse be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no man is justified before G-d by the Law; for “righteousness shall live by faith,” but the Law does not rest on faith, for “he who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become that curse for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree”...” Gal.3.10-13

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Shalom JS,
remember that I don’t have any intention to offend you but speak the truth in love.
I just be frank with you; that you misunderstood about what God have said “My grace is sufficient”. You can’t lower God’s standards to meet your predicament.

Dear JS,
But we can consider this :

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.
Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. -Galatians 6:1
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. -Galatians 6:2

Can the homosexual be considered as those who are caught in transgressions? They can be considered that.

But we who are spiritual are told to RESTORE THE HOMOSEXUAL in a spirit of gentleness ; Likewise, we have to keep watch on ourselves, lest we be tempted.

So dear JS,
When you bear burden the burden of your niece; it is because you love her ; you love her despite others thought her as someone low and despised; continue to love her in the manner of Christ. Then you are considered as those who fulfill the law of Christ.

Joyous Song said:

Shalom Santoso, I can see you read at least one part of my post as you responded to this is depth on that one part. Then you replied:

“So JS, consider carefully what you have heard!!!”

What I heard was “His Grace was sufficient” in the lives of my niece and her partner than when, like you, I shared the position you speak of, that homosexuality is a sin. Then He gave me an example of this in my own life, and I felt strongly this was no coincidence. This verse and its intended meaning permeated far more of my posts that you were responding to and was clearly missing from your response except that last part I quoted.

So I must ask you: When Christ told Paul “His Grace is sufficient”, how do you define this “Grace” he gave to Paul being “sufficient” as regards one of his sin (as well as Rom.1-2), in the context of your response?

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Shalom JS,
I heard you. When you have your eldest daughter was dizzy ! When your youngest daughter got her teeth fixed ! When your husband much to do with being ordained as a priest ! When you have cooking to do, housecleaning, and others things to prepared!
Are you not overwhelmed? Don’t you find yourself weak ? Aren’t you seek the Lord’s help ? I believe you are.

So we heard :
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. -2 Corinthians 12:9

When you accept your weaknesses! When you trust in the Lord’s grace ! You are not trusting in the flesh but in the power of Christ.

This is also what we have heard:
Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD. -Jeremiah 17:5

"Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose trust is the LORD. -Jeremiah 17:7

But those who makes flesh their strength, their hearts are considered to turn away from the Lord. So the homosexual who makes flesh their strength ; the homosexual who considers their sexual indulgence, what they consider as love their strength; their hearts turn away from the Lord.

Dear JS, if you considered the homosexual to have received the grace of the Lord, that is sufficient. Then the homosexual should not react but respond to the grace of repentance.
How? This is what we have heard:

"Seek the LORD while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near ; -Isaiah 55:6
let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion on him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. -Isaiah 55:7

Dear JS, see the parentheses in Isaiah 55:6.
We who have sin are called to forsake our wicked ways and abandon our unrighteous thoughts, that is, how we are called to seek the Lord. That is how we are told to respond to the grace of repentance. As you see the parentheses in Isaiah 55:7, how the Lord have compassion or grace to abundantly pardon those who have sinned.

Are we only people who are weak? Don’t the homosexual also felt weak ? So when we are weak ! Should we serve the flesh ? No.
What we should do is to accept our weaknesses, submit ourselves to God to obedience leading to righteousness.
How ? By continuing to believe in Christ. How ? By abiding in His words. How ? This is what I do ; I proclaim this ; I believe this :

Romans 6:2
I died to sin; I cannot live any longer in sin.
Romans 6:3
I who was baptized into Christ Jesus was baptized into His death.
Romans 6:4
I was therefore buried with Christ through baptism into death in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, I too may live a new life.
Romans 6:5
I have been united with Christ like this in His death,
I will certainly also be united with Christ in His resurrection.
Romans 6:6
For I know that my old self was crucified with Christ
so that the body of sin might be done away with,
that I should no longer be slaves to sin–
Romans 6:7
because I who has died has been freed from sin.
Romans 6:8
I died with Christ,
I believe that I will also live with Him.
Romans 6:9
For I know that since Christ was raised from the dead,
He cannot die again;
death no longer has mastery over Him.
Romans 6:10
The death Christ died,
He died to sin once for all;
but the life Christ lives, He lives to God.
Romans 6:11
In the same way, I count myself dead to sin
but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:12
Therefore I do not let sin reign in my mortal body
so that I obey its evil desires.
Romans 6:13
I Do not offer the parts of my body to sin,
as instruments of wickedness,
but rather offer myself to God,
as those who have been brought from death to life;
and offer the parts of my body to Him as instruments of righteousness.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be my master, because I am not under law,
but under grace.
Amen

So dear JS,
I do consider what I have heard:

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. -2 Corinthians 12:9

So what of my weaknesses I will boast to you.

Dear JS,
I was wretched ! I became a person I didn’t like ! If I didn’t like myself! How could anybody could ever like me ! So I hated myself! But eventually, I find right before God to hate the sin that dwell in my members of my body.

I was so wretched and weak that I didn’t know how to pray ! How can I get help ? I knew my intellectual resource or abilities can’t help me get out this wretched or weak situation. So I obey and listen to what have been said. If you can wait for a doctor, you can wait for God. Wait is wait ! So by waiting on the Lord, I gain spiritual strength to pray, seek, and believe in the Lord. It was not easy but I wait and wait for God. Though in the natural I seemed to find nothing changes ! But I just believe in the spiritual something change ! Lord know my waiting. I wait for His steadfast love ! I wait for His grace ! I trust in His grace!

This is what I have heard:
But THIS I call to MIND, and therefore I have hope: -Lamentations 3:21
The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases; His mercies never come to an end; -Lamentations 3:22
they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. -Lamentations 3:23
The LORD is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him. -Lamentations 3:25

So as I wait for the Lord, I bear in my mind about the steadfast love of the Lord that never ceases and His mercy never come to end. So I believe as I offer myself according to His word. I believe His steadfast love surround me, as I have heard:

Many are the sorrows of the wicked, but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the LORD. -Psalms 32:10

So dear JS,
That is how the Lord’s grace is sufficient for me. I have accepted my weaknesses, I have offered myself to obedience to His words not relying on my own understanding or intellectual resources and abilities. I didn’t make flesh my strength but I responded to
the Lord’s grace of repentance. Daily I submit myself to the Lord’s words; that is how the Holy Spirit, my Lord lead me so that I don’t find myself disqualified in the faith.

Joyous Song said:

Shalom Santoso:

“Do everyone then born of the Law of Moses, that the law spoken to people through Levitical priesthood? No.:


JS: I not sure what this sentence was suppose to be. Perhaps if you reword it I would better understood. It seems incomplete.

Santoso: So then do our Lord only redeem those under the law under Levitical priesthood or the Law of Moses ? No. Why?


JS: I explain this is great detail in a study I’m doing the the Eschatology site here on Rev.10.

Santoso: Didn’t apostle Paul write Galatians 4:4-5, this letter to the Galatians who were Gentiles? Yes.

So apostle Paul spoke of ANOTHER LAW that everyone were born of woman was born under this law, that the Lord REDEEM? Yes.


JS: This did not abrogate the Laws of Moshes which were eternal, lalolam.

Santoso: What is this law ?
This, we heard:
Therefore, just as SIN CAME INTO the world through one man, and DEATH THROUGH SIN, and so DEATH SPREAD TO all men because all sinned' -Romans 5:12

So we can consider that just as sin came into the world through one man, and everyone born of woman, born under THE LAW OF SIN, and death through sin, and so we consider those who sinned under THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

JS: agreed

Santoso: Now let us consider about those who were born NOT under the law of Moses ? This is what we have heard :

For all who have sinned without the law will also PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. -Romans 2:12


JS. Chapter 2 of Romans begins:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

As my teacher teaches these lessons given to the Romans or Jews also belong to us, thus they remain within the Bible. Modern Christian are no longer lawless gentiles. Thus when you read this text its talking of those we Christians see as sinners, and we are those with that Law that will be judge by that Law.

Yet he also says that some we do not see as Christian/Jews still follow G-d in their hearts and minds, 14-15, accusing them and defending them, both.


17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew (modern Christian) ; if you rely on the law (of Christ) and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? ….You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”[b]

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Shalom JS,
Let me explain what I have said :
“Do EVERYONE then born of the Law of Moses, that the law spoken to people through Levitical priesthood? No.”

Everyone was born of a woman, born under under the law of sin since sin came into the world through one man,Adam and everyone born of a woman, Eve was under the law of sin. Everyone that includes the Gentiles and the Jews.

Also, we heard the Jews received the law of Moses through the Levitical priesthood after the order of Aaron (Hebrews 7:11). As for the Gentiles, they have not received the law of Moses through the Levitical priesthood after the order of Aaron, as we heard in Ephesians 2:11-12.

So then, we don’t consider that everyone was born of the law of Moses through the Levitical priesthood after the order of Aaron.

After Jesus came, this is what we heard :
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin ( offering),he condemned sin in the flesh, -Romans 8:3
in order that the righteous requirement of the law ( of Spirit of life ) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. -Romans 8:4

What actually happened? This is what we have heard:
For since the law ( of Moses ) has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. -Hebrews 10:1

So we consider the law of Moses has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities. Why?

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. -Hebrews 10:4

So through the Levitical priesthood under which the people of Jews received the law of Moses, the blood of bulls and goats that are offered are considered not to be able to take away sins.

Therefore, this is written:
This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, -Hebrews 7:15
who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. -Hebrews 7:16

This is what is written about our Lord Jesus Christ:
For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." -Hebrews 7:17

What does this mean ? This is what we have heard:
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is NECESSARILY a change in the law as well. -Hebrews 7:12

So now the Jews and Gentiles can receive the law of God through Christ who has been testified as a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

For the Jews who do not receive what God command through Christ, this is what we have heard:
And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. -Deuteronomy 18:19

So to obey what God has commanded through Christ, we are called to walk according to the Spirit, as we heard in Roman 8:4.

So dear JS,
remember when Jesus Christ became our high priest, there is a change in the law.

This is what we have heard:
For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness -Hebrews 7:18
(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. -Hebrews 7:19

So what commandments that matter are what God the Father has spoken through His Son !

That is why we also heard this:
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -Romans 8:1

Therefore, to be in union with the Lord is of importance!

Joyous Song said:

Shalom Santoso,

I reading Victor Hugo’s famous book Les Miserables (for the hundredth time) and came upon something I believe figures into our discussion well from the good bishop in that story:


The faults of women, children and servants and of the weak, the indigent, and ignorant, are faults of their husbands, fathers, and masters, of the strong and the rich and the wise…. If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed The guilty one is not the he who commits the sin but the one who cause the darkness.

Bishop Myreil a fictional character speaking the the root of sin, pp13-14


Our Church teaches homosexuality is a venal sin as as such does not threaten salvation if one sins from ignorance or as the quote above states, the sins of others. Thus Homosexuals are welcomed into our church. We give reconciliation at the onset so that none are in sin as they receive the Eucharist and its hope the Eucharist within them will heal them if they need healing and bring them to repentance otherwise. This even covers them if Christ’s mercifully says to them, “My Grace is Sufficient” so they can concentrate on other more serious sins.

In another way, they acknowledge its a sin in their teaching, along side all the other venial sins we all tend to make (if we are honest with ourselves and G-d). Yet they then leave judgment on them to Christ and His Father.

Still these cannot seek holy orders unless sinless (they look for holiness where such venial sins are rare). They cannot also hold an office is openly as such, as such would set a bad example (but drunks, gluttonous people and other sinners are also excluded).

I see this is a far more just response that can gain more fruit that judge first before we share the Gospel - that Christ died for our sins.

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Shalom JS,
I understand that you like Les Miserables.

I like to be frank with you that I don’t agree with what Bishop Myreil, a fictional character has said about the roots of sin —-as if the weak were dismissed of their sin because of their ignorance. Even when they weren’t oppressed ! How can he be so sure that the weak do not have sin ? Likewise, he claimed that the strong, wise and the rich were the guilty ones —How can he be so sure that they were no strong, wise, rich women and children or servants ? How can he so sure that the husbands, fathers and masters were never weak ?

This is what was spoken about the film;The film depicts abuses against poor citizens, especially teenagers of sub-Saharan African or Maghrebi ethnicities, thus stressing the continuity in the fate of the poor in Montfermeil.

Dear one,
Let me share with this perspective.
Should immigrants be allowed in the country?
Is this Christian thing to do ? ; this is what the native of a country usually have a concern . Likewise, what arise as concern in the movie or book about the injustice experience by the immigrants.

In summary, I think whether immigrants are allowed in the country, depend on the governing authorities of the country’s willingness and people’s careful considerations. This is what I find out about how the immigrants should be treated when they are allowed as I look at the Holy Scripture; I find the Lord Jesus Christ is a compassionate person and good God in how He told us how to treat the immigrants in the land. I find that the Lord instructs that when immigrants come into the land or country, they are to be treated as native, just like the Jews were once sojourner as strangers in the land of Egypt. The native are told to do what is right, deliver the immigrants from oppressors, do nothing wrong and not to be violent towards the resident aliens, fatherless and widows, Also, the natives are told not shed innocent blood. The Lord instructs that should be one law for the native and immigrants.

In regard to the welfare of the native who are poor that cannot maintain himself or herself are to be treated like immigrants who live in the land. The Lord give instructions that when harvesting the land that outer field to its edge, the gleanings after harvest, and the fallen grapes, forgotten sheaf, beat over again olive, strip over again grapes are to be apportioned to the immigrants,
fatherless and widows in order that the LORD God may bless the native in all the work of their hands. For the Lord watches over and upholds the immigrants, fatherless and widows but the wicked the Lord will bring to ruin. The immigrants who reside among the native and born children among the native shall be regarded as native-born and shall be allotted inheritance like the native. When immigrants want to follow the Lord, he or she has to keep the Lord’s commandments and rulings. The Lord also told that those who practice occult like giving children to the devil whether immigrants or native are to be put to death. Likewise,the Lord also told that those who blaspheme the name of the Lord whether the immigrants or native will be put to death. I also have heard that apostle Peter has given instructions that the immigrants are to abstain from unlawful sexual relationship. The native are also encouraged to be hospitable to the immigrants, as some may have entertained angel unexpectedly. Lastly, the native who have shown compassion to the immigrants by giving food and drink to the hungry, thirsty may unexpectedly have welcomed the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Leviticus 19:33-34; Exodus 23:9；Exodus 12:49; Jeremiah 22:3; Leviticus 25:35; Psalms 146:9; Leviticus 23:22; Leviticus 19:10; Deuteronomy 24:19; Deuteronomy 24:20; Deuteronomy 26:12; Ezekiel 47:22; Numbers 9:14; 1 Peter 2:11;
Leviticus 18:26; Leviticus 24:16;
Leviticus 20:2; Hebrews 13:2; Matthew 25:35

Joyous Song said:

Shalom Santoso,

I reading Victor Hugo’s famous book Les Miserables (for the hundredth time) and came upon something I believe figures into our discussion well from the good bishop in that story:


The faults of women, children and servants and of the weak, the indigent, and ignorant, are faults of their husbands, fathers, and masters, of the strong and the rich and the wise…. If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed The guilty one is not the he who commits the sin but the one who cause the darkness.

Bishop Myreil a fictional character speaking the the root of sin, pp13-14


Our Church teaches homosexuality is a venal sin as as such does not threaten salvation if one sins from ignorance or as the quote above states, the sins of others. Thus Homosexuals are welcomed into our church. We give reconciliation at the onset so that none are in sin as they receive the Eucharist and its hope the Eucharist within them will heal them if they need healing and bring them to repentance otherwise. This even covers them if Christ’s mercifully says to them, “My Grace is Sufficient” so they can concentrate on other more serious sins.

In another way, they acknowledge its a sin in their teaching, along side all the other venial sins we all tend to make (if we are honest with ourselves and G-d). Yet they then leave judgment on them to Christ and His Father.

Still these cannot seek holy orders unless sinless (they look for holiness where such venial sins are rare). They cannot also hold an office is openly as such, as such would set a bad example (but drunks, gluttonous people and other sinners are also excluded).

I see this is a far more just response that can gain more fruit that judge first before we share the Gospel - that Christ died for our sins.

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Shalom JS,
I heard what you share about your church concerning what they taught about the homosexual and how they treated them.

But I dare not say and do beyond what is written to us. That is why many instances I explain to you what the gospel of Jesus Christ have said through the gospel of Jesus Christ so that all glory and honor be to the Lord, not to me. For the Holy Spirit who enables me to understand and strengthen me to do what I have been commanded. So all glory and thanksgiving belong to the Lord.

Yes, I understand that some come to homosexuality through trend so that they can gain acceptance in their new elated circle of friends. Some come to homosexuality because they are unknowingly deceived at young age. Some come to homosexuality through oppression and violence. Yes, may be there are more reasons that they come to homosexuality more than I know.

I don’t categorize sin as some are more serious than others; for I understand that all sin is serious enough that our Lord have to die and give Himself as a ransom.

I do understand many churches have taught that homosexuality is sin and does not approve the practice of homosexuality. But to teach and approving otherwise, are already given serious warning in the Bible.

I understand that many churches neglect this and this sadden many hearts:

Brothers, if anyone is caught in ANY TRANSGRESSION, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. -Galatians 6:1

Yes, I do agree that the homosexual need to be treated with much gentleness.

This is the gentleness that we heard :
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." -John 8:7
Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" -John 8:10
She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."]] -John 8:11

Likewise, this words bring many comfort those who are homosexual and sinners alike that repent :

For the Lord will not cast off forever, -Lamentations 3:31
but, though He cause grief, He will have compassion according to the abundance of His steadfast love; -Lamentations 3:32
for He does not afflict from His heart or grieve the children of men. -Lamentations 3:33