Old Mosaic Law Covenant Obsolete!

corinth77777 said:

Ref
DUET 30 ;11

For this commandment I give you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?’ 13And it is not beyond the sea, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?’ 14But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it.15See, I have set before you today life and goodness, as well as death and disaster. 16For I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live and increase, and the LORD your God may bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.

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The law only grants the knowledge of sin. In that knowledge we are truly blessed, in that we then need the savior, Jesus Christ.

klutedavid said:

The law only grants the knowledge of sin. In that knowledge we are truly blessed, in that we then need the savior, Jesus Christ.

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Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

HIM said:

It is God that works in us both to will and do His Good pleasure. For He has said I will put my laws into your minds and in your hearts write them. For His word is nigh unto to us, in our hearts and in our moths; that is the word of faith in which we preach.

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1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

klutedavid said:

The law only grants the knowledge of sin. In that knowledge we are truly blessed, in that we then need the savior, Jesus Christ.

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The law is no longer the source of rightness
But it is the course of rightness.

corinth77777 said:

Hi, yes...and it's there that we obey it.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

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That's correct, the sole purpose of the law is not righteousness. The sole purpose is that awareness of God's absolute holiness. In other words, the law is shouting at us, you are not holy. You have died to the law and it's yoke but you are alive in Jesus Christ.

Moses failed to enter the holy land and that should be the lesson for everyone.

corinth77777 said:

The law is no longer the source of rightness
But it is the course of rightness.

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The path of the law is laden with condemnation and rightly so. No wonder the people at Mt Sinai were terrified. They were sinners listening to the proclamation of damnation for transgression.

klutedavid said:

That's correct, the sole purpose of the law is not righteousness. The sole purpose is that awareness of God's absolute holiness. In other words, the law is shouting at us, you are not holy. You have died to the law and it's yoke but you are alive in Jesus Christ.

Moses failed to enter the holy land and that should be the lesson for everyone.

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If you command your son to give your mother 15 dollars and He does...has He upheld your command? He fullfilled your wishes.

klutedavid said:

The path of the law is laden with condemnation and rightly so. No wonder the people at Mt Sinai were terrified. They were sinners listening to the proclamation of damnation for transgression.

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Did you agree with that statement? If not why?

Soyeong said:

All of God's righteous laws are eternal, not just ten of them

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Are we now commanded to circumcise our male children?

Should you stone your neighbor to death if he picks up sticks on the Sabbath day?

Is it OK to wear clothes made out of two different fibers?

Is it OK to use a microwave after sundown on Friday?

Is it OK to eat shrimp?

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klutedavid said:

The path of the law is laden with condemnation and rightly so. No wonder the people at Mt Sinai were terrified. They were sinners listening to the proclamation of damnation for transgression.

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Psalms 119;35

Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it

What I am saying is the path and source are diff......
Jesus is the source of salvation

Source......

What does that mean to you.....That He is the source?

There is a path we must walk by the spirit that leads to life [presence of God]...And
It begins while we are here on earth....

corinth77777 said:

What I am saying is the path and source are diff......
Jesus is the source of salvation

Source......

What does that mean to you.....That He is the source?

There is a path we must walk by the spirit that leads to life [presence of God]...And
It begins while we are here on earth....

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1st John 5 ;11

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Question where is this life and How is it accessed?

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Question to myself is has God manifested Himself to me?

klutedavid said:

Your entire argument collapses on one point.

If Gentiles were circumcised, then I would agree with you. What we are told is the Gentiles were not under that law to be circumcised. Hence, the law can only be a temporary entity with a singular purpose. To only grant the knowledge of sin. On that basis, we establish the law.

If one letter of the law (circumcision) has passed, then the entire law has passed.

It is illogical to apply the law of Moses with laws missing from the set.

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Not the least letter has ever passed from the law. Either there are correct and incorrect reasons for someone to become circumcised and Paul was only speaking against the incorrect ones, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul was causing Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US who are circumcised. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that they were using circumcision for an incorrect purpose. So the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against this requirement and a ruling against requiring circumcision for a purpose that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.

In Acts 15:1, the group that came from Judea were unbelievers who did not have faith in Jesus because they were supporting a works-based salvation. They were opposed in Acts 15 by a group of believers from among the Pharisees who argued that Gentiles need to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, so they were supporting faith-based salvation as believers who had faith in Jesus who knew that we aren't saved by keeping the Mosaic Law. To emphasis, Pharisees who taught obedience to the Mosaic Law were considered to be valid believers. So the debate was between whether Gentiles should become circumcised and keep the Law of Moses as a means of earning salvation or as a matter of obedience through faith, which means that no one there was calling into question whether Gentiles should become circumcised or obeying the Law of Moses.

In Acts 15:6-9, Peter said that God gave Gentiles the Holy Spirit and purified the hearts through faith. In Acts 15:10-11, they questioned why they should put God to the test by placing a yoke on the next of the disciples that neither their fathers not they have been able to bear, but they believe that they will be saved through the grace of the Lord, Jesus, just as they are. In Acts 15:12, Paul and Barnabus gave further evidence of the faith of the the Gentiles. In Acts 15:13-14, James said Simon had declared how has declared how God at first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name and cited the prophets as agreeing saying “‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’ So he judged that they should not trouble Gentiles who are turning to God and that they should write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood, for we Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

So everything in Acts 15:6-18 was said in support of Gentiles being saved through faith in favor of the second group and against the first group. The yoke referred to in Acts 15:10 could not have been the Law of Moses because it is easy and light (Deuteronomy 30:11-14, 1 John 5:3, Matthew 11:28-30). However, unlike Jews, Gentiles were not born and raised to follow Law of Moses, so James recognized that it was it was not something that could be learned in a day and softened the position of those in Acts 15:5 of Gentiles needing to observe all of the Law of Moses the moment they become a believer. In Acts 15:19-21, James started Gentiles out with four laws from the Law of Moses which would help them to first leave pagan practices, which he explained in verse 21 by saying they would continue to learn how to obey Moses over time by hearing him taught each Sabbath in the synagogues. This is in accordance with what Jesus taught in Matthew 23:2-3 that we are to observe and do what is taught from the seat of Moses.

There are 1,050 commandments in the NT, so it would be absurd to suggest that those four laws are an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of mature Gentile believers and it would be contradictory for James command them to follow some of the laws of Moses if he was ruling against Gentiles needing to obey it. Furthermore, Jesus commissioned His disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching everything that He taught them, which involved teaching the Law of Moses. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Law of Moses, so that is not what the Jerusalem Council was doing. It also wouldn't make sense for Paul to have Timothy circumcised before setting out on an trip with a decree that supposedly abolished circumcision.

klutedavid said:

Your entire argument collapses on one point.

If Gentiles were circumcised, then I would agree with you. What we are told is the Gentiles were not under that law to be circumcised. Hence, the law can only be a temporary entity with a singular purpose. To only grant the knowledge of sin. On that basis, we establish the law.

If one letter of the law (circumcision) has passed, then the entire law has passed.

It is illogical to apply the law of Moses with laws missing from the set.

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Deuteronomy 10:12-16 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. 15 Yet the Lord set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

The heart was considered to be the center if our intellect, emotions, and will, and we need to go through the transformation of circumcising it in order to overcome our stubbornness and become become fully obedient to the Mosaic Law. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, Moses prophesied that the Israelites would be exiled from the Promised Land because of their disobedience, that while they were in the midst of the nations that they would return to the Lord, obey His commands, that the Lord would restore their fortunes, have mercy on them, gather them from where they had been scattered, that He would circumcise their hearts and the heart of their offspring so that they will love the Lord their God with all their heart and with all of their soul, that they may live, and that they would again obey the voice of the Lord and keep all of His commandments.

Jeremiah prophesied during the time of Israel's exile that God would gather them, restore their fortunes, rebuild their cities, make a New Covenant with them where he would put His law in their minds and write it on their hearts, and forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more (Jeremiah 31), so he echoed the prophecy of Moses and made a similar statement about God writing His law on our hearts. Ezekiel also prophesied that Jerusalem would be rebuilt, the people to dwell in peace and safety, that God would take away their hearts of stone, given them new hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead them in obedience to His law (Ezekiel 36:26-28), so having a circumcised heart is also connected to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8-9).

In Colossians 2:11-13, Paul believed that these prophesies were being fulfilled in part through the death and resurrection of Jesus in that in him we also were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which we were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And we, who were dead in our trespasses and the uncircumcision of our flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us our trespasses. Disobedience to the Mosaic Law is also associated with having an uncircumcised heart in Jeremiah 9:25-26 and Acts 7:51-53.

In Romans 2:13-15, it is the doers of the law who will be justified, so Gentiles show that they have faith and that God's law is written on their hearts when they obey it by nature, which is a circumcised heart that is the goal of the New Covenant in accordance with the prophesies of Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. In 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul said that circumcision has no value and that what matters is obeying the commands of God, in Romans 3:1-2, he said that circumcision's has much value in every way, and in Romans 2:25, he said that circumcision conditionally has value if we obey the Mosaic Law, so it is not so much that circumcision has no value or great value, but that its value is entirely derived from whether we obey it. In Romans 2:26-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is again by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for Jews. Furthermore, he said that circumcision is a matter of the heart by the Spirit in accordance with Ezekiel 36:26-28.

So circumcision has always been about the heart and not just the flesh and Moses did not think that circumcision of the heart was an alternative to circumcision of the flesh, but rather circumcision of the heart has always referred to a heart that is obedience through faith. The Spirit gives us the desire to follow the Mosaic Law, which includes circumcision of the flesh, but circumcision of the flesh has no value without the inward transformation accomplished by the Spirit. It's all connected back to Moses and to Christ, who lived in sinless obedience to the Law of Moses, so at no point does having a circumcised heart involve obedience to anything other than the Law of Moses.

Soyeong said:

It's all connected back to Moses and to Christ, who lived in sinless obedience to the Law of Moses, so at no point does having a circumcised heart involve obedience to anything other than the Law of Moses.

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Then why are there two separate sets of commandments in the verse below?


Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


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Soyeong said:

Deuteronomy 10:12-16 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. 15 Yet the Lord set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

The heart was considered to be the center if our intellect, emotions, and will, and we need to go through the transformation of circumcising it in order to overcome our stubbornness and become become fully obedient to the Mosaic Law. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, Moses prophesied that the Israelites would be exiled from the Promised Land because of their disobedience, that while they were in the midst of the nations that they would return to the Lord, obey His commands, that the Lord would restore their fortunes, have mercy on them, gather them from where they had been scattered, that He would circumcise their hearts and the heart of their offspring so that they will love the Lord their God with all their heart and with all of their soul, that they may live, and that they would again obey the voice of the Lord and keep all of His commandments.

Jeremiah prophesied during the time of Israel's exile that God would gather them, restore their fortunes, rebuild their cities, make a New Covenant with them where he would put His law in their minds and write it on their hearts, and forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more (Jeremiah 31), so he echoed the prophecy of Moses and made a similar statement about God writing His law on our hearts. Ezekiel also prophesied that Jerusalem would be rebuilt, the people to dwell in peace and safety, that God would take away their hearts of stone, given them new hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead them in obedience to His law (Ezekiel 36:26-28), so having a circumcised heart is also connected to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8-9).

In Colossians 2:11-13, Paul believed that these prophesies were being fulfilled in part through the death and resurrection of Jesus in that in him we also were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which we were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And we, who were dead in our trespasses and the uncircumcision of our flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us our trespasses. Disobedience to the Mosaic Law is also associated with having an uncircumcised heart in Jeremiah 9:25-26 and Acts 7:51-53.

In Romans 2:13-15, it is the doers of the law who will be justified, so Gentiles show that they have faith and that God's law is written on their hearts when they obey it by nature, which is a circumcised heart that is the goal of the New Covenant in accordance with the prophesies of Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. In 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul said that circumcision has no value and that what matters is obeying the commands of God, in Romans 3:1-2, he said that circumcision's has much value in every way, and in Romans 2:25, he said that circumcision conditionally has value if we obey the Mosaic Law, so it is not so much that circumcision has no value or great value, but that its value is entirely derived from whether we obey it. In Romans 2:26-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is again by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for Jews. Furthermore, he said that circumcision is a matter of the heart by the Spirit in accordance with Ezekiel 36:26-28.

So circumcision has always been about the heart and not just the flesh and Moses did not think that circumcision of the heart was an alternative to circumcision of the flesh, but rather circumcision of the heart has always referred to a heart that is obedience through faith. The Spirit gives us the desire to follow the Mosaic Law, which includes circumcision of the flesh, but circumcision of the flesh has no value without the inward transformation accomplished by the Spirit. It's all connected back to Moses and to Christ, who lived in sinless obedience to the Law of Moses, so at no point does having a circumcised heart involve obedience to anything other than the Law of Moses.

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Awesome Job explaining....It made me read Jeremiah a couple of chapters and see some things.

Here is a couple of passages that Came to me as I was reading this post. ROMANS 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 John 3;8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Gal 5;19
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another

Would one say then that obeying the Spirit can put one on the course of rightness.

Definitely seems like the list are heart problems

BABerean2 said:

Then why are there two separate sets of commandments in the verse below?


Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


.

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Jesus is the model....In Matthew it seems
He restates the law as it should be, not as How people decided they would keep it.

Was Jesus commands any different than His Fathers? Or were His commands the father's commands sense He says He speaks what the father gives Him

John 14:29

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

corinth77777 said:

Was Jesus commands any different than His Fathers?

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Yes.

We are not now commanded to circumcise our male offspring.


Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—


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Delete

BABerean2 said:

Yes.

We are not now commanded to circumcise our male offspring.


Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—


.

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are we not still
For it is written: if you through the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

This is the substance I believe circumcision foreshadows....

The troubling aspect was telling those to do what they did not do through their own flesh.[natural abilities] that would bring them back in bondage.



Note to myself: life for life

corinth77777 said:

are we not still
For it is written: if you through the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

This is the substance I believe circumcision foreshadows....

The troubling aspect was telling those to do what they did not do through their own flesh.[natural abilities] that would bring them back in bondage.



Note to myself: life for life

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One point is that by the deeds of the flesh...no man is Justified.....

But by the deeds of the Spirit...we can

Another words no man earns His salvation
Recall the passage: Who has given to God that He shall repay Him.

This aspect leaves off- that no man can boast before God. Because God justifies man through the faith, the faithfulness, or Faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16...my most Fav. Passage states:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Kjv

So question before a man can be Justified does He need to be born of the Spirit?