When was the Church born?

Landon Caeli · Apr 24, 2021

Donald Joseph said:
Pentecost Day...Acts 2 (check it for more edification of when the CHURCH grew). When Jesus walked the earth in His Ministry is when the church began. He is head of the church , not a man.

So were the Jews of old not part of the Church?

Carl Emerson · Apr 24, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
I believe that can only be stated by taking account of each individual's conversion...their repentance, their thankfulness to overflowing for their salvation and the specific gifts given to each according to what God has determined.More could be said I suppose, but talking about individual experiences within the body of Christ.

What deeds did the church at Ephesus need to do as at first?

Francis Drake · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The word ekklesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) referring to Israel. This proves that the terms “Church” and “Israel” are synonymous and interchangeable. Christ and the Apostles employed and quoted extensively from the Septuagint during the early New Testament Church. The word is found 116 times in the New Testament. It was a term that they were very familiar with. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born. While Dispensationalist conveniently portray the ekklesia as an Old Testament mystery and a New Testament phenomenon, Christ and the disciples were not so ignorant.

The ekklesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX): in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

Excellent. I was trawling through the comments and just about to post this, so you have saved me the time.

Carl Emerson · Apr 24, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Excellent. I was trawling through the comments and just about to post this, so you have saved me the time.

Doesn't this simply mean that the intent of God has always been that the faithful should be in 'fellowship'

For me it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that Israel was and is the church.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
What deeds did the church at Ephesus need to do as at first?

Don't believe that's given us, right? So what deeds did you do at first when your fervor for God was at its peak...assuming it was...everyone is different. Each one has their own talents and assume they used them to the utmost God-given abilities. We know each one had huge love and thankfulness after their conversion according to the Acts account and I believe we have similar experiences, right?

Bruce Leiter · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I am interested in opinions on when the Body of Christ, the Church was born.

Was it... Mark 3:
13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach.

or... Luke 10:
1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

or... Luke 10:
18 And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to walk on snakes and scorpions, and authority over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

or ... John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit"

or... Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

or... Acts 4:
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant it to Your bond-servants to speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

or... Acts 14:
23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

or... Something else...

The reason I ask is because many dismiss the accounts in early acts as not being prescriptive regarding normal life in the church. Yet in Revelation they were instructed to return to their first love and do what they did at first...

I believe that the "church," which means the gathering of true believers happened when (perhaps) Adam and Eve repented and trusted the God with whom they walked and talked, continued throughout the believing line descended to Noah through Enoch, narrowed down from the nations to Abram's family, and was preserved in the Old Testament remnant (Elijah's 7,000) until Jesus' death and resurrection brought the international church out of national Israel.

Francis Drake · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Doesn't this simply mean that the intent of God has always been that the faithful should be in 'fellowship'

It means infinitely more than that.

For me it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that Israel was and is the church.

Like most Christians, you have swallowed the church paradigm hook line and sinker, but if you look a little further afield you will see it is utterly wrong.

Lets look at some other parallels.
Ex19v 6And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel.

1Pet2v9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; ..............

The above Exodus19 verse is taken from the Septuagint translation of the OT, which many of the NT references come from, which is why there is such a parallel. But even in other OT translations, Israel is called a"Kingdom of priests", which means exactly the same as a royal priesthood.

Next parallel.
Ex23v20“Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.
We should ask who was that Angel that God sent to accompany them in their escape from Egypt.

The answer of course is found in the NT-
1Cor10v1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
As can be seen, the Angel referred to in Exodus, who accompanied them out of Egypt, can only be Christ Jesus.

And again.-
Eph2v14For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
As can be seen, we the Gentile believers, have been grafted into the original body of Christ, the original ekklesia that God started when he called Abraham out of Haran!

Additionally, all through the OT, Israel is referred to both as a son, and the wife of the Lord, just as we are referred to as sons of God and the Bride of Christ.

Carl Emerson · Apr 24, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
Don't believe that's given us, right? So what deeds did you do at first when your fervor for God was at its peak...assuming it was...everyone is different. Each one has their own talents and assume they used them to the utmost God-given abilities. We know each one had huge love and thankfulness after their conversion according to the Acts account and I believe we have similar experiences, right?

Not right - you completely ignore what was happening in the church in the early chapters of Acts after Pentecost. The church was a loving family that shared and were in one mind with each other. God confirmed the preaching of the word with the miraculous. This was the answer to Jesus prayer in John 17 - the world saw this - Jesus, 'love personified' was reigning and the world could see it and were drawn to Him. - sadly these verses are ignored or avoided because of embarrassment.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 24, 2021

One seems to speak forward

Ex19v6 And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel.

And and the other confirms the present

1Pet2v9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

Clare73 · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I am interested in opinions on when the Body of Christ, the Church was born.

Was it... Mark 3:
13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach.

or... Luke 10:
1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

or... Luke 10:
18 And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to walk on snakes and scorpions, and authority over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

or ... John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit"

or... Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

or... Acts 4:
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant it to Your bond-servants to speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

or... Acts 14:
23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

or... Something else...

The reason I ask is because many dismiss the accounts in early acts as not being prescriptive regarding normal life in the church. Yet in Revelation they were instructed to return to their first love and do what they did at first...

In heaven, with the faithful angels.

Carl Emerson · Apr 24, 2021

Francis Drake said:
It means infinitely more than that.

Like most Christians, you have swallowed the church paradigm hook line and sinker, but if you look a little further afield you will see it is utterly wrong.

Lets look at some other parallels.
Ex19v 6And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel.

1Pet2v9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; ..............

The above Exodus19 verse is taken from the Septuagint translation of the OT, which many of the NT references come from, which is why there is such a parallel. But even in other OT translations, Israel is called a"Kingdom of priests", which means exactly the same as a royal priesthood.

Next parallel.
Ex23v20“Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.
We should ask who was that Angel that God sent to accompany them in their escape from Egypt.

The answer of course is found in the NT-
1Cor10v1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
As can be seen, the Angel referred to in Exodus, who accompanied them out of Egypt, can only be Christ Jesus.

And again.-
Eph2v14For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
As can be seen, we the Gentile believers, have been grafted into the original body of Christ, the original ekklesia that God started when he called Abraham out of Haran!

Additionally, all through the OT, Israel is referred to both as a son, and the wife of the Lord, just as we are referred to as sons of God and the Bride of Christ.

Yes to the above, but you ignore that there are two Israels.

Further the descendants by blood include wheat and tares just as in the NT church.

So the real 'Spiritual' Israel comprising of all true believers are descended by faith from Abraham not Moses.

Any way the real issue I want to raise is the return of the church to first love - making this an individual issue is a cop out, as 'first love' was family.

When the church was born and empowered, there was a community of love and sharing recorded in Acts 4: 32-34

throughfiierytrial · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Not right - you completely ignore what was happening in the church in the early chapters of Acts after Pentecost. The church was a loving family that shared and were in one mind with each other. God confirmed the preaching of the word with the miraculous. This was the answer to Jesus prayer in John 17 - the world saw this - Jesus, 'love personified' was reigning and the world could see it and were drawn to Him. - sadly these verses are ignored or avoided because of embarrassment.

This I well know, one concept/or set of attributes does not negate the other...as you well know. You ignore the body of Christ is of one mind with Jesus their head...the individual gifts are still different and used to build one another up..this is still unity with diversity of gifts. You are not suggesting that the early church did not have the same character and make up as Paul/God describes in I Corinthians 12 are you? And if you are suggesting this, do you see I Corinthians 12 and the many other passages describing the church with diversity as a matter of growth in maturity or degradation of it or what exactly are you driving at?
I already brought up that the church scattered due to persecution and this resulted in furthering the Gospel.

zoidar · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I am interested in opinions on when the Body of Christ, the Church was born.

Was it... Mark 3:
13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach.

or... Luke 10:
1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

or... Luke 10:
18 And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to walk on snakes and scorpions, and authority over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

or ... John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit"

or... Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

or... Acts 4:
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant it to Your bond-servants to speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

or... Acts 14:
23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

or... Something else...

The reason I ask is because many dismiss the accounts in early acts as not being prescriptive regarding normal life in the church. Yet in Revelation they were instructed to return to their first love and do what they did at first...

I just answered this in another thread. I believe when Jesus called his first disciple. From that moment on there was fellowship.

Carl Emerson · Apr 24, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
You ignore the body of Christ is of one mind with Jesus their head

Seriously? when did I do this?

What I see is folks avoiding Acts 4 because it is so far removed from what we have let the church become in most cases.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Seriously? when did I do this?

What I see is folks avoiding Acts 4 because it is so far removed from what we have let the church become in most cases.

Where you ignore or dismiss my postings on the 1Corinthians church...what do you see as meaning of being of one mind?
Are you reflecting on the schism of the church? The now many denominations?

Carl Emerson · Apr 24, 2021

I haven't ignored or dismissed anything.

No one has claimed that the church was born during some event after Pentecost.

This means Acts 4 is a valuable reference to how the church should be functioning.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 24, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I haven't ignored or dismissed anything.

No one has claimed that the church was born during some event after Pentecost.

This means Acts 4 is a valuable reference to how the church should be functioning.

You are so vague...I believe we all love the Acts church, but we cannot say that we should exclude NT teachings on the body,..that was a part of it. All for me.

Carl Emerson · Apr 25, 2021

What happened in Acts does not negate or challenge teachings on the body.

However the teachings in early Acts are still largely ignored.

TexFire316 · Apr 25, 2021

Old Testament. Book of Ezra and others. When the Jews left Babylon, they brought with them what would later become the modern church system.
so, the mordern church was infact born in Babylon.

Mr. M · Apr 25, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Doesn't this simply mean that the intent of God has always been that the faithful should be in 'fellowship'

For me it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that Israel was and is the church.

Church=body of Christ
Christ=seed of Abraham, seed that was by promise
The seed began to bear fruit with Isaac
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say,
“And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
Romans 9:
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but,
In Isaac your seed shall be called.
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed....
and;
11 that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, The older shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
Jacob came out of servitude with his sons and was given the name Israel.
From these sons there continued to be an elect for God's purpose.
Joseph, Judah, Levi, Ephraim, Moses and Aaron, Joshua, Samuel...etc
There has always been a Grace remnant
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.
Isaiah 1:9 Unless the Lord of hosts had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom, We would have been made like Gomorrah.
Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs
according to the promise.

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