dqhall

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Sabbath is a very important day because it is the day of the Lord. If you believe in Jesus Christ then you have to believe in sabbath. Matthew 12:8 says "
For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

Matthew 5:17 & 19 Jesus Christ says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them
. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Those who do not follow Sabbath will be the LEAST in Heaven.
May God Bless You
Jesus healed people on the Sabbath. The Jews did not allow healing on the Sabbath. They tried to kill him because this sin of working on the seventh day required the death penalty. The commandment against murder applies also to people who want to stone Sabbath breakers. The Torah requires the death penalty for 26 sins, yet Israel has abolished the death penalty as they believe the commandment against murder. List of capital crimes in the Torah - Wikipedia

Matthew 12 (WEB) At that time, Jesus went on the Sabbath day through the grain fields. His disciples were hungry and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 But the Pharisees, when they saw it, said to him, “Behold, your disciples do what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.”

3 But he said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered into God’s house and ate the show bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?1 Samuel 21:3-6 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath day the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 But I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’Hosea 6:6 you wouldn’t have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 He departed from there and went into their synagogue. 10 And behold, there was a man with a withered hand. They asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath day?” so that they might accuse him.

11 He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if this one falls into a pit on the Sabbath day, won’t he grab on to it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day.” 13 Then he told the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out; and it was restored whole, just like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how they might destroy him.


In Acts 15 Paul met the apostles including Peter and they agreed the Gentiles should not bear the full burden of the laws of Moses. Gentile Christians must not fornicate. This means premarital sex, prostitution, inappropriate behavior with animals, incest, homosexuality and adultery are banned. Laws concerning sacrifice no longer apply as these sacrificial rites have been banned. The Romans already had laws against murder, theft, tax evasion, etc.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Then they disagree with Paul in Romans 5:12-14, where he states "before the law was given, sin was in the world;" i.e., the guilt of Adam's sin, by which we are all condemned (Romans 5:16-18)
The law wasn't given by Moses until 2,400 years after Adam.

"The Gentiles. . .by nature. . .show that the requirements of the law are written on their heart."(Romans 3:14-15).
Paul is not referring to 10 specific commandments there.
He is presenting the laws by which mankind will be judged, and all mankind will be shown to be unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).
Jews will be judged buy the Mosaic Law, and pagans by the natural law; i.e., their
natural impulse without the external constraint of the law, which refers to practices in pagan society that agreed with the law: caring for the sick and elderly, honoring parents, condemning adultery. The moral nature of pagans, enlightened by conscience is the law by which they would they would be judged, as Israel would judged by the Mosaic law.
Understanding the fourth commandment begins with the principle:
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27);
i.e., the Sabbath was made for man's rest from his work on the seventh day (Exodus 34:21, Exodus 20:10; Leviticus 23:3; Deuteronomy 5:14) as God had rested from his work on the seventh day.
However, God's Sabbath rest is full-time, and there was a
coming full-time Sabbath rest for man (Exodus 31:17, Hebrews 4:1, Hebrews 4:6, Hebrews 4:9), in salvation rest from trying to save himself by his own righteous works, and rest in Jesus' finished work to save him by his righteousness (Romans 5:19), through faith.
Jesus is the NT fulfillment of the OT Sabbath, just as he is the fulfillment of the OT atoning sacrifices.
In the New Covenant, every day is a Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ.
We are free to assemble regularly on whatever day we choose.


Indeed they are not, for they are subsumed in Jesus' two commands of Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).
God's New Covenant people are subject to Jesus' two commands (above), while also not being free to violate the Ten Commandments.
Obeying the Ten Commandments saves no one.
Only faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," saves.
Actually, obeying the Ten Commandments saves no one.
Only faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," saves from God's wrath on sin (Romans 5:9).
The New Covenant was given by God before Jesus gave the two greatest commandments. Jesus did not abolish the commandments of God. In fact He teaches the exact opposite of what you’re teaching here. Just keep reading after Jesus gives the greatest commandments (which does not abolish God’s laws)

Mathew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Mathew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

How do we love the Lord with all our heart? Obeying His commandments according to Jesus Mathew 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3

The first four commandments are how we are to love God and the last six how we are to love each other.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I don't deny that scripture has any authority, just that it's authority is contained within that of the Church. So I defer to the Church's interpretation of scripture over my own, and if the Church does not interpret scripture as necessitating Saturday worship then I accept it's authority on the matter.
The million dollar questions is, if God’s true Sabbath is on the seventh day like He commanded us to keep holy Exodus 20:8-11 do you follow the commandments of God or the commandments of man? You do not have to answer me if you do not want to, but maybe something to pray on? God bless!
 
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Lawrence87

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The million dollar questions is, if God’s true Sabbath is on the seventh day like He commanded us to keep holy Exodus 20:8-11 do you follow the commandments of God or the commandments of man? You do not have to answer me if you do not want to, but maybe something to pray on? God bless!

I believe that the Church is the body of Christ and that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, so I think your framing of the question is invalid. The Sunday worship is ordained by God by virtue of being ordained by the Church. The Church is not the institution of man, but the Body of Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I believe that the Church is the body of Christ and that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, so I think your framing of the question is invalid. The Sunday worship is ordained by God by virtue of being ordained by the Church. The Church is not the institution of man, but the Body of Christ.
How can it be invalid? Jesus asked the same question. Mathew 15:3-9

The Holy Spirit did not give permission to the Church to erase one of God’s commandments. The Church admits this when they say there was no biblical authority to change one of God’s commandments.

The Holy Spirit is given to help us obey God’s commandments, not break them! John 14:15-18
 
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Lawrence87

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How can it be invalid? Jesus asked the same question. Mathew 15:3-9

The Holy Spirit did not give permission to the Church to erase one of God’s commandments. The Church admits this when they say there was no biblical authority to change one of God’s commandments.

The Holy Spirit did give that authority to the Church because that is what happened.The Church is not the institution of men, it was established by Christ as His body here on this earth and therefore it is authoritative
 
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Taodeching

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Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.
And don't use "if your conscience says to..." arguments, they are so shallow, and this is a subject that is directed connected to God and Jesus and defines if you go to hell or no, because even if you do every other thing correctly, if God's Truth is that no matter who you are you should follow Sabbath, then I would say it is a condemning subject.

This a complete lie from the enemy of our soul. To be saved you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, what your doing here is works and no can work their way to glory.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The Holy Spirit did give that authority to the Church because that is what happened.The Church is not the institution of men, it was established by Christ as His body here on this earth and therefore it is authoritative

God did not establish the Catholic Church. Nor did God give authority to erase one of His commandments. Proverbs 30:5,6 Isaiah 8:20. We do not need a mediator as Jesus is our Mediator and we can go directly to Him. 1 Timothy 2:5 Seems like what the Church is teaching is the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches. Only Jesus can save, not the Church, not the pope. John 14:6, John 3:36, Isaiah 43:11, just a few scripture. I believe Jesus when He told us to keep the commandments of God and not commandments of man. Since Jesus is our Savior and Creator I put Him above all else. These are Words from our Savior!

Mathew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Peter told us Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.
 
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Lawrence87

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God did not establish the Catholic Church. Nor did God give authority to erase one of His commandments. Proverbs 30:5,6 Isaiah 8:20. We do not need a mediator as Jesus is our Mediator and we can go directly to Him. 1 Timothy 2:5 Seems like what the Church is teaching is the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches. Only Jesus can save, not the Church, not the pope. John 14:6, John 3:36, Isaiah 43:11, just a few scripture. I believe Jesus when He told us to keep the commandments of God and not commandments of man. Since Jesus is our Savior and Creator I put Him above all else. These are Words from our Savior!

Mathew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Peter told us Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.

So essentially you're saying that the Church pretty much fell into apostasy right away, rather than being preserved as the authentic vehicle for the transmission of Christ's teaching. Which would thus render Christ's promise that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the Church false.

How do you square Christ's promise to preserve the Church with your view that the Church pretty quickly fell into apostasy?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So essentially you're saying that the Church pretty much fell into apostasy right away, rather than being preserved as the authentic vehicle for the transmission of Christ's teaching. Which would thus render Christ's promise that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the Church false.

How do you square Christ's promise to preserve the Church with your view that the Church pretty quickly fell into apostasy?

I think we need to identify what God’s Church is. God’s Church is based on the Word of God. Jesus is the Rock. According to apostle John, God’s end-time church is a remnant.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Keeping God’s commandments and the faith of Jesus are characteristics of God’s church. God’s Sabbath never changed and that why He asked us to REMEMBER His Sabbath day and keep it holy Exodus 20:8 God’s church keeps all of God’s commandments. God’s commandments are His will for us which is why the Ten Commandments were placed in the most holy of holy in the Sanctuary. It’s God’s sacred Words that He personal wrote and spoke and we are told are an eternal covenant. Luke 16:17, Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111,7,8

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We are told narrow is the way and the wide path leads to destruction. Mathew 7:13

God wants us to wake up and start worshipping Him on the day He commanded. Exodus 20:8-11 When we worship God on His chosen day we are showing our loyalty to Him and not man. Psalm 119:126



God bless!
 
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Clare73

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The New Covenant was given by God before Jesus gave the two greatest commandments.
It was promised, but not inaugurated, right?
Jesus did not abolish the commandments of God. In fact He teaches the exact opposite of what you’re teaching here.
What I'm teaching here is Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).
Just keep reading after Jesus gives the greatest commandments (which does not abolish God’s laws).
The laws of sacrifices; clean and unclean food, houses, garments, persons; bodily defilements, cleansings; Aaronic priesthood, covenant mediator/lawgiver, etc., etc., etc. are in fact abolished (Ephesians 2:15).
Mathew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Which is Jesus' complete code for the NT. . .not to be mistaken for freedom to violate the Decalogue.
Mathew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and eart
h pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law TILL all is fulfilled
Which is exactly what they are, fulfilled in him--in the atoning sacrifices, the cleansings from sin; the Day of Atonement, the Sabbath, the Passover, Firstfruits, Trumpets (gospel call); the Priesthood; the Mediator/Lawgiver--fulfilled, in him, and passed away.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Note they are not excluded from the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
1) which is not a statement that they were, in fact, righteous;
2) which cannot be done by law keeping, which is why all who rely on the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10).
How do we love the Lord with all our heart?
By preferring him over everything, and willingness to part with everything for his sake.
Obeying His commandments according to Jesus Mathew 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3

The first four commandments are how we are to love God and the last six how we are to love each other.
All of which are fulfilled in Christ's two commandments of Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It was promised, but not inaugurated, right?
What is Jesus' complete code for the NT, not to be mistaken for freedom to violate the Decalogue.
Which is exactly what they are, fulfilled in him--in the atoning sacrifices, the cleansings from sin,; the Day of Atonement, Sabbath, Passover, Firstfruits, Trumpets (gospel call); the Priesthood; the Mediator/Lawgiver--fulfilled, in him.

Note the are not excluded from the kingdom of heaven.

1) which is not a statement that they were, in fact, righteous;
2) which cannot be done by law keeping, which is why all who rely on the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10).
By preferring him over everything, and willingness to part with everything for his sake.

All of which are fulfilled in Christ's two commandments of Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).


The Ten Commandments hang from these two commands. They are inseparable. Love to God makes keeping the first four commandments (which concern God) a pleasure, and love toward our neighbor makes keeping the last six (which concern our neighbor) a joy. Love fulfills the law by taking away the drudgery of mere obedience and by making law-keeping a delight (Psalm 40:8). When we truly love a person, honoring his or her requests becomes a joy. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). It is impossible to love the Lord and not keep His commandments, because the Bible says, “This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). “He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4).
 
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Lawrence87

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I think we need to identify what God’s Church is. God’s Church is based on the Word of God. Jesus is the Rock. According to apostle John, God’s end-time church is a remnant.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Keeping God’s commandments and the faith of Jesus are characteristics of God’s church. God’s Sabbath never changed and that why He asked us to REMEMBER His Sabbath day and keep it holy Exodus 20:8 God’s church keeps all of God’s commandments. God’s commandments are His will for us which is why the Ten Commandments were placed in the most holy of holy in the Sanctuary. It’s God’s sacred Words that He personal wrote and spoke and we are told are an eternal covenant. Luke 16:17, Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111,7,8

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We are told narrow is the way and the wide path leads to destruction. Mathew 7:13

God wants us to wake up and start worshipping Him on the day He commanded. Exodus 20:8-11 When we worship God on His chosen day we are showing our loyalty to Him and not man. Psalm 119:126



God bless!

But the Church instituted by Christ had no Bible for the first few centuries, so I don't understand how it can be said that the basis of the Church is the Word of God.

The New Testament canon is newer than Sunday worship. So essentially you'd claim that the Church was in apostasy before it canonised the scriptures, so how can you trust that the already apostasized Church would have faithfully preserved the scriptures?

The earliest references to Sunday worship predate the canonisation of scripture by a couple of centuries.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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But the Church instituted by Christ had no Bible for the first few centuries, so I don't understand how it can be said that the basis of the Church is the Word of God.

The New Testament canon is newer than Sunday worship. So essentially you'd claim that the Church was in apostasy before it canonised the scriptures, so how can you trust that the already apostasized Church would have faithfully preserved the scriptures?

The earliest references to Sunday worship predate the canonisation of scripture by a couple of centuries.
Sure they did, the Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New Testament. Jesus often quoted and taught from the OT. If the NT canon was newer than Sunday worship, why didn’t it say clearly say God’s 4th commandment is abolished and the new holy day is now the first day of the week. There is no such scripture and your Church admits that it was not changed by any Biblical scripture. The change happened after the Holy Spirit guided the canons to make the 66 books of the Holy Bible. It was even predicted in Daniel God’s Sabbath would be changed.

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.

The only law that is both a time and a law is God’s 4th commandment. We are to keep Holy the seventh day (time) and is the 4th commandment Exodus 20:8-11 (law).

God bless
 
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  1. The Ten Commandments hang from these two commands. They are inseparable. Love to God makes keeping the first four commandments (which concern God) a pleasure, and love toward our neighbor makes keeping the last six (which concern our neighbor) a joy. Love fulfills the law by taking away the drudgery of mere obedience and by making law-keeping a delight (Psalm 40:8). When we truly love a person, honoring his or her requests becomes a joy. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). It is impossible to love the Lord and not keep His commandments, because the Bible says, “This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). “He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4).
Your rewording what Jesus said.
 
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The discussion where we find the Sabbath text in Hebrews 4 begins back in chapter 3. He is explaining the superiority of Christ, and indicates that He is superior to Moses.

3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.


Jesus is over the whole household and built the house. He created all and He rules all. Moses is a servant in the house who was faithful. Christ is the Son over the household. And if we Hold on to Him we are a part of God's household.

He then makes an extended appeal to respond to Christ and hold fast to Him. He quotes from Psalm 95, which he is going to use to build his appeal. So we can take a look at what the psalm says.

Psa 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
Psa 95:2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
Psa 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psa 95:4 In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.
Psa 95:5 The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.
Psa 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.


The first part of the Psalm acknowledges God as ruler, Creator, and the Shepherd who cares for His sheep. Then in the middle of verse 7 it makes an appeal to not harden your heart, which is a message the his listeners needed to hear.

Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.


He recalls the experience in the wilderness when the Children of Israel were freed from slavery in Egypt. God brought them through the wilderness to the land prepared for them. However, they frequently doubted, grumbled, turned away from Him, turned to idolatry, etc. They did not hold fast.

The people "err in their heart".

The Psalmist is saying "Today", don't be like those who rebelled back then. Rarther respond with sincere hearts, in faith.

He swore they would not enter His rest. In the book of Numbers we read that God told Moses to send spies into the land that He promised to give them, to see what the land was like. Then they gave a report:

Num 13:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 13:2 Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them.

Num 13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days.
Num 13:26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land.
Num 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
Num 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.


They reported the land was a good land. But the people were strong. The people doubted, even though they had seen God deliver them miraculously from the Egyptians. But Caleb, one of the spies, called them to be faithful, and trust the Lord. The people refused.

Num 14:1 And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.
Num 14:2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!
Num 14:3 And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?
Num 14:4 And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.
Num 14:5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.
Num 14:6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
Num 14:7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.
Num 14:8 If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
Num 14:9 Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD is with us: fear them not.
Num 14:10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.


Joshua and Caleb tried to appeal to them to not rebel, that the Lord was able to do all He promised. But they would not listen.

After their repeated rebellion God declared judgment upon that generation.

Num 14:21 But truly, as I live, and as all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD,
Num 14:22 none of the men who have seen my glory and my signs that I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have put me to the test these ten times and have not obeyed my voice,
Num 14:23 shall see the land that I swore to give to their fathers. And none of those who despised me shall see it.
Num 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it.
Num 14:25 Now, since the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwell in the valleys, turn tomorrow and set out for the wilderness by the way to the Red Sea.”
Num 14:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Num 14:27 “How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me.
Num 14:28 Say to them, ‘As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you:
Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,
Num 14:30 not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.
Num 14:31 But your little ones, who you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected.
Num 14:32 But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness.
Num 14:33 And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness.
Num 14:34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.’
Num 14:35 I, the LORD, have spoken. Surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation who are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die.”


The entire generation, 20 years or older, who came out of Egypt, and saw the wonders there, who continually rebelled, died in the wilderness over the 40 year span. Only Joshua and Caleb went in to see the land. They did not enter the rest of the promised land, because of doubt and unbelief.

It is with this background in mind that in Hebrews 3:7 the author begins an appeal to those Christians who are in danger of doubting and losing heart:

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.’ 11 So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

He is saying that God has a rest for them, if they are faithful and do not turn away. We are to exhort, encourage, each other daily, while it is called "today" so that we do not harden our heart as they did in the wilderness, and fail to receive the rest God has for us. We have become partakers of Christ if we hold the same confidence to the end.

15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Here he summarizes the history of how all those 20 and older who went out, started the journey, but failed to finish, because of rebellion. And the cause of their rebellion was unbelief. They did not hold fast their confidence they started with.

Chapter four continues the argument:

4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

Here he takes the wording of Psalm 95, "today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart" to indicate there is an ongoing rest that we can enter. "Today" God is still calling us to enter His rest, to not harden our hearts through doubt.

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

They had an opportunity to trust God. He says the gospel was preached to them, because they had an opportunity to rest totally in Him for salvation, not just physical rest, but ultimate rest.

Even though that generation failed, there is still that rest in the time of Psalm 95. And there is still that rest in the time of the the author of Hebrews.

He says we who have believed DO enter that rest. The rest is in trusting God. They failed due to lack of faith. But we believe and enter in.

Then in the middle of that verse 3 He begins referring to another text, that we looked at earlier, Genesis 2.

Although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

So the author points out that God ceased His creative work on the seventh day. God is resting from His creative work, and invites us to that rest.

Now this is where the disagreements usually come about. Is the rest He is inviting the believer to the literal Sabbath rest, or something else?

Well the context has already clarified. But let's look at what else is said.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

He is still referring to those who did not enter in back in the wilderness. They did not enter in because of disobedience.

But the possibility of entering the rest still remained in the time of David.

Joshua did not give them rest. Now he did lead them into the promised land, but something more is involved that goes beyond the physical promised land. There is still the spiritual rest of trusting in God and not depending on your own power. Under Joshua they went into the promised land, but then when Joshua died they again doubted and never totally removed the inhabitants they were supposed to.

The "Today" rest continues on, even though the generation with Joshua was now in the past.

God speaks of another day after Joshua. It is the "Today" already mentioned throughout. Today, when you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.

And then we come to the contested verse:

9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

The whole context leading up to this makes clear what this rest is. We enter into the "today" rest with God through faith. We do not harden our hearts through lack of faith like those in the wilderness. We start the journey with God, and trust Him to the end. We enter into His rest.

Now it says there "remains" a sabbath rest for the people of God. In a book about fulfillments of the Old Testament types the author explains a Sabbath rest that remains.

Now while I mention the other argument, and have tried to give both sides in some of the other passages, I think the meaning here is clear. The context makes plain this is not the observance of the Sabbath day. Because even the people in the wilderness started doing that after a few false starts. But they did not enter the rest spoken of. Rather, verse 10 tells us the rest:

Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

We rest in faith. We don't worry about the giants in the promised land, and fall back. We continue the journey. We rest from our works, as God rested from His.

The purpose of the Sabbath was a sign with Israel. It recalled their Creator, as the command states. It recalled their redemption from Egypt as Deuteronomy 5 states. And it was a sign that God is the one who sanctifies them.

But in Hebrews there is a sabbath rest that remains to enter, TODAY, that you not harden your heart, and that you continue to hold on to faith. That you not turn away as those in the wilderness did, but rest from your own works to trust in the One who started you on the journey.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

So do not lose heart brother. You are in Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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Apparently, based on the teachings and practices they received, and due to the new way of fulfilling the law, by the Spirit rather than by the letter, the strictly moral laws of the ten commandments were still held to be obligatory

The "new way" is same one that enabled Moses and Elijah to stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - before the cross. Jeremiah calls it "the New Covenant" as does Paul in Heb 8:6-12. The "one gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 in both OT and NT by which all are saved or lost if they reject it.

But editing The Commandments of God - was never an option.
 
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BobRyan

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I have a really easy solution for you - take a look at where BOTH sides agree.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
etc.

ALL of them agree with the SDA church and other Sabbath keeping groups -- on these key points.

1. All TEN of the TEN commandments were given as the moral law of God in Eden - to mankind
2. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the Law of God that is written on the heart under the new Covenant.
3. The Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture - points to Saturday - not Sunday.
4. The TEN Commandments are not in opposition to grace or the Gospel
5. all of mankind are still to this very day held to accountability by the TEN
6. The TEN are not - "just for Jews".

When scholarship on BOTH sides look at the Bible and AGREE on these key details then it is a pretty good option .. take this as the starting point and then work through the differences that remain.

Essentially given all that common ground - the Sabbath keeping POV is "God's Word cannot be edited ... not even by tradition"... and that is the crux of where all the differences reside when it comes to Sabbath keeping vs the position taken by those groups I listed.

Someone comments later on in this thread as follows



Which highlights the point I just made above.

So getting to the "easy part" of these Bible details -- where BOTH sides agree - is starting at "square 1".

When you find someone arguing for a solution that does not even make it to "square 1" -- the chances of success are less than optimal.

===============================

Having said that - some more easy things to look at are:

1. Romans 14 does not mention the 7th Sabbath at all in the entire chapter.
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes them all... he who observes the day observes it or the Lord"

2. A careful reading of Col 2 - shows that it also does not mention the 7th day Sabbath - it only refers to the "Shadow" Sabbaths of Lev 23 - the annual feast days. Holy days in the Bible.

3. Gal 4:9-11 only references pagan holy days that the former-pagan gentiles in Gal 4 "were returning to" after becoming Christians. The observance of even one of them was condemned by Paul in Gal 4 --- as contrasted to the defense of all the Bible holy days defended by Paul in Rom 14.

4. Gal 5:1-5 is not condemning the Bible. So then it is still a sin to "take God's name in vain" for example. Gal 5 is condemning the "made up tradition" of gentiles required to be circumcised to be saved... and the idea that a lost person could "earn salvation" by not taking God's name in vain - without accepting the Gospel and being born again.


And as for the bonus text making it all very very easy

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth: "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath made for mankind"
Is 56:6 - Gentiles singled out for Sabbath keeping.
Acts 18:4 gospel preaching for both gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath"

(There is only "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 which is why in your OP that Matt 17 text shows both Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glory - before the cross... because there is only one Gospel and it was in the OT as well as NT. Same is true for New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 as well as Heb 8:6-12)

===================



Then they disagree with Paul in Romans 5:12-14, where he states "before the law was given, sin was in the world;" i.e., the guilt of Adam's sin, by which we are all condemned (Romans 5:16-18).
The law wasn't given by Moses until 2,400 years after Adam.

I think you just shot your own argument in the foot.

They say it was a sin to take God's name in vain - even in Eden.

You say that Paul is correct to say that before the Law was given by Moses at Sinai - sin was in the world according his statement in Romans 5 - "as if" this make the Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic in opposition to Paul - when in fact the way you just framed it supports them.

Gen 26:5 "Abraham obeyed Me and fulfilled his duty to Me, and kept My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Gal 3:8 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

Actually, obeying the Ten Commandments saves no one.
Only faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," saves from God's wrath on sin (Romans 5:9).

Those Bible scholars never argued that a lost person would gain heaven without the Gospel - if they could just manage not to murder. That is not even an argument that they make in the quote given for what they teach.
 
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BobRyan

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But the Church instituted by Christ had no Bible for the first few centuries, so I don't understand how it can be said that the basis of the Church is the Word of God.

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"
 
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