About Sabbath

Maria Billingsley · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
You have to understand Paul in context. He makes it clear keeping God’s commandments is what matters 1 Corinthians 7:19 so Paul is not contradicting himself and is not talking about the seventh-day Sabbath here. He is referring to the feast days, not God’s 4th commandment that is eternal. Note that scripture also does not say every day is the Lord’s day which is what I asked you to quote.

This is my last post. Thank you for engaging. Be blessed.
5 " One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike."

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
This is my last post. Thank you for engaging. Be blessed.
5 " One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike."

Which does not say God’s 4th commandment that He personally wrote and personally spoke and are told is part of an eternal covenant has been abolished and now everyday is the Lord’s day. Paul told us what matters is keeping God’s commandments why do you choose to toss that scripture out in favor of something that does not mean what you hope it does? Paul makes it very clear God’s commandments are not abolished. 1 Corinthians 7:19, Romans 2:12, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, Romans 7:22 , Romans 7:12.

Jesus even made that more clear. Mathew 5:17-20

God bless!

Marumorose · Apr 24, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
I'm a new Christian. There is 5 months or something since I started 'truly' following Jesus and God, obeying Him, learning, etc. Everything is going well, I'm learning so much. But now, looks like everything is running out of my control, I don't know what to do or to follow anymore, if I should do X or no, if I should follow Y or no.
Only one thing remains clear to me: I believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible.

There is many things right now I don't know what to follow or do. But in this thread, I wanna focus in just one of them: the Sabbath / the 4th commandment. It is making me desperate, overthink over and over and get worried so often.

What should I do?

I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good. But I also read the Bible arguments from people that do not follow the Sabbath and they also look really good.
Since both really look good, I thought that the Bible is contradicting itself, but I truly believe in the Bible, I just don't know what to follow.

Arguments from SDA:
1- The 4th commandment that God gave to Moses
2- Matthew 17:3 - I don't know exactly if this is an argument, but I saw some using it.
3- Mark 7:6-13
4- Luke 16:31
5- Deuteronomy 8:11

Arguments that don't think Christians need to follow Sabbath:
1- Romans 14:5,6
2- Galatians 5:2-8
3- Galatians 4:9-11
4- Colossians 2:14-17

I am personally more inclined to the non-Sabbath verses, because they look more solid and direct on what message/meaning they are trying to get across and it is also aiming for Christians that are not Jewish, but the SDA arguments are also good.

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.
And don't use "if your conscience says to..." arguments, they are so shallow, and this is a subject that is directed connected to God and Jesus and defines if you go to hell or no, because even if you do every other thing correctly, if God's Truth is that no matter who you are you should follow Sabbath, then I would say it is a condemning subject.

Sabbath is a very important day because it is the day of the Lord. If you believe in Jesus Christ then you have to believe in sabbath. Matthew 12:8 says "
For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

Matthew 5:17 & 19 Jesus Christ says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Those who do not follow Sabbath will be the LEAST in Heaven.
May God Bless You

Freth · Apr 24, 2021

Patience is persevering through tribulation and persecution, with steadfast faith and keeping the commandments of God—which is what the saints of God do. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." —Revelation 14:12

Access to the very tree of life and the New Jerusalem hinges on commandment keeping, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." —Revelation 22:14

For without are commandment breakers and false worshipers (et al) who love and make a lie. "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." —Revelation 22:15

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
That’s why Jesus warned us about worshiping Him in vain by keeping the commandment of man and not the commandments of God. Mathew 15:3-9 The Church who made this change freely admits changing God’s day from Saturday to Sunday was not based on scripture authority and they want you to know when worshipping God on the first day you are not obeying God but a commandment of the Catholic Church. Who should we obey God or man that Jesus warns us not to do?

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.
Of course these two old quotations are exactly correct. The Catholic Church designated Sunday as the day for corporate worship and gets full credit – or blame – for the change.
—This Rock, The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization, p.8, June 1997

Q. Have you any other proofs that they(Protestants) are not guided by the Scripture?

A. Yes; so many, that we cannot admit more than a mere specimen into this small work. They reject much that is clearly contained in Scripture, and profess more that is nowhere discoverable in that Divine Book.

Q. Give some examples of both?

A. They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;...
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

I don't know if you understand my point. You are saying the scriptures are authoritative, therefore you necessarily admit that the church that brought the canon of scripture into being has the authority to have done so. Thus by extension you are saying that the church authority applies in one regard (that the scriptures the church gave us are themselves authoritative) but not in regard to Sunday worship. So does the church have any authority or not?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
I don't know if you understand my point. You are saying the scriptures are authoritative, therefore you necessarily admit that the church that brought the canon of scripture into being has the authority to have done so. Thus by extension you are saying that the church authority applies in one regard (that the scriptures the church gave us are themselves authoritative) but not in regard to Sunday worship. So does the church have any authority or not?

I do not believe the scriptures was based on the authority of the church, but instead directed by the Holy Spirit and is God’s Word. We are told not to change one Word. Especially those spoken by our Savior!

Proverbs 30:5

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
I do not believe the scriptures was based on the authority of the church, but instead directed by the Holy Spirit and is God’s Word. We are told not to change one Word. Especially those spoken by our Savior!

Proverbs 30:5

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

But you understand that the Church preserved which books were authentic for the first three centuries of the Church before they were canonised? And it is important to emphasize that they did so among many false texts that were proclaimed by heretics to be authentic. So you have to at least accept that the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit in this.

So why can it not be said that the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to institute Sunday worship?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
I don't know if you understand my point. You are saying the scriptures are authoritative, therefore you necessarily admit that the church that brought the canon of scripture into being has the authority to have done so. Thus by extension you are saying that the church authority applies in one regard (that the scriptures the church gave us are themselves authoritative) but not in regard to Sunday worship. So does the church have any authority or not?

The Church also admits there was NO scripture authority to change God’s Sabbath day. They also admit it’s a commandment of the Catholic Church, not a commandment of God. People with your view who think the Church has the ultimate authority still ague from scripture that the Sabbath has been abolished, when the Church who you think has this authority to change God’s Sabbath said in multiples quotes (I only shared a few) that the seventh day is God’s true holy day. I don’t understand why this does not give more people pause. Jesus told us not to obey commandments of man only God! Mathew 15:3-9

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
The Church also admits there was NO scripture authority to change God’s Sabbath day. They also admit it’s a commandment of the Catholic Church, not a commandment of God. People with your view who think the Church has the ultimate authority still ague from scripture that the Sabbath has been abolished, when the Church who you think has this authority to change God’s Sabbath said in multiples quotes (I only shared a few) that the seventh day is God’s true day. I don’t understand why this does not give more people pause. Jesus told us not to obey commandments of man only God! Mathew 15:39

My church do actually worship on Saturday with Vespers. But they participate in the Eucharist on Sunday to commemorate the resurrection which occurred on the first day of the week.

The Church is ultimately authoritative because it was the institution that brought us the scriptures. It also brought us much of our theology. A great deal of the standard theology about the incarnation and the trinity and so forth came from the Church Fathers and is not necessarily clear from the scriptures themselves.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
But you understand that the Church preserved which books were authentic for the first three centuries of the Church before they were canonised? And it is important to emphasize that they did so among many false texts that were proclaimed by heretics to be authentic. So you have to at least accept that the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit in this.

So why can it not be said that the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to institute Sunday worship?

The Church did a lot of things they were not supposed to do. They were told to spread God’s Word instead killed Christians and kept scriptures to only the so-called “elect” which is called the dark ages. Why they deviated so much from the Holy Spirit I don’t know, but the 66 books of the Bible is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit and we are told ‘To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20.

The fact they changed God’s law speaks volumes to me.

God bless!

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
The Church did a lot of things they were not supposed to do. They were told to spread God’s Word instead killed Christians and kept scriptures to only the so-called “elect” which is called the dark ages. Why they deviated so much from the Holy Spirit I don’t know, but the 66 books of the Bible is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit and we are told ‘To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20.

The fact they changed God’s law speaks volumes to me.

God bless!

But my church do celebrate with a service on Saturday, as a prelude to the Sunday service. So they do keep it Holy.

So what are your thoughts on the incarnation? Was Christ fully God? Fully man? Or both?

What about the nature of the Trinity? Is there one God? Three gods? Or do you accept the Patristic understanding?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
But my church do celebrate with a service on Saturday, as a prelude to the Sunday service. So they do keep it Holy.

So what are your thoughts on the incarnation? Was Christ fully God? Fully man? Or both?

What about the nature of the Trinity? Is there one God? Three gods? Or do you accept the Patristic understanding?

What is the Church primary day of worship?

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
What is the Church primary day of worship?

Sunday because that is the day that was forever consecrated by the resurrection and it is meet and right to worship upon that day because Christ is the centre of Christianity, not the old covenant.

Could you answer my questions about your theology on the incarnation and the trinity? I'd be curious to know whether you accept the Patristic view on these matters.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
Sunday because that is the day that was forever consecrated by the resurrection and it is meet and right to worship upon that day because Christ is the centre of Christianity, not the old covenant.

Could you answer my questions about your theology on the incarnation and the trinity? I'd be curious to know whether you accept the Patristic view on these matters.

Which is exactly the opposite of what God commanded Exodus 20:8-11.

I believe in one Godhead, three Person. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14).

Also, I do not want to get off topic to the OP so those question regarding the Trinity should be saved for another post.

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
Which is exactly the opposite of what God commanded Exodus 20:8-11.

I believe in one Godhead, three Person. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14).

Also, I do not want to get off topic to the OP so those question regarding the Trinity should be saved for another post.

How much of the old covenant do you follow?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
How much of the old covenant do you follow?

Are you trying to argue from scripture now regarding the Sabbath, when you believe the Church who in your opinion has the ultimate authority, stated there is no biblical authority to change God’s Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

To answer your question we are in the New Covenant, God’s laws written in our hearts. Same commandments, different promises.

tall73 · Apr 24, 2021

Lawrence87 said:
Could you answer my questions about your theology on the incarnation and the trinity? I'd be curious to know whether you accept the Patristic view on these matters.

This is the denomination specific theology section. So you can just start a thread in this section with the title:

Adventist view of Trinity

But it is off topic in this thread.

GraceBro · Apr 24, 2021

First, welcome to the Family. Secondly, I would ask God for His opinion on the matter. Perhaps, if you are ready, He will lead you to the answers you seek. Thirdly, I would suggest getting an understanding of the Gospel. Not everybody believes the same thing about the Gospel. This is what affects their Christian life and understanding of topics like the Sabbath. And, finally, here is a teaching on the Sabbath that may help you. Grace and peace.

Lawrence87 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
Are you trying to argue from scripture now regarding the Sabbath, when you believe the Church who in your opinion has the ultimate authority, stated there is no biblical authority to change God’s Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

To answer your question we are in the New Covenant, God’s laws written in our hearts. Same commandments, different promises.

I don't deny that scripture has any authority, just that it's authority is contained within that of the Church. So I defer to the Church's interpretation of scripture over my own, and if the Church does not interpret scripture as necessitating Saturday worship then I accept it's authority on the matter.

Clare73 · Apr 24, 2021

BobRyan said:
I have a really easy solution for you - take a look at where BOTH sides agree.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
etc.

ALL of them agree with the SDA church and other Sabbath keeping groups -- on these key points.

1. All TEN of the TEN commandments were given as the moral law of God in Eden - to mankind

Then they disagree with Paul in Romans 5:12-14, where he states "before the law was given (i.e., the Ten Commandments were not given until Moses), sin was in the world;" i.e., the guilt of Adam's sin, by which we are all condemned (Romans 5:16-18).
The law wasn't given by Moses until 2,400 years after Adam.

2. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the Law of God that is written on the heart under the new Covenant.

"The Gentiles. . .by nature. . .show that the requirements of the law are written on their heart."(Romans 3:14-15).
Paul is not referring to 10 specific commandments there.
He is presenting the laws by which mankind will be judged, and by which all mankind will be shown to be unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).
Jews will be judged buy the Mosaic Law, and pagans by the natural law; i.e., their natural impulse without the external constraint of the law, which refers to practices in pagan society that agreed with the law: caring for the sick and elderly, honoring parents, condemning adultery. The moral nature of pagans, enlightened by conscience is the law by which they would they would be judged, as Israel would judged by the Mosaic law.

3. The Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture - points to Saturday - not Sunday.

Understanding the fourth commandment begins with the principle:
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27);
i.e., the Sabbath was made for man's rest from his work on the seventh day (Exodus 34:21, Exodus 20:10; Leviticus 23:3; Deuteronomy 5:14), as God had rested from his work on the seventh day.
However, God's Sabbath rest is full-time, and there was a coming full-time Sabbath rest for man (Exodus 31:17, Hebrews 4:1, Hebrews 4:6, Hebrews 4:9), in salvation rest from trying to save himself by his own righteous works, and rest in Jesus' finished work to save him by his righteousness (Romans 5:19), through faith.
Jesus is the NT fulfillment of the OT Sabbath, just as he is the fulfillment of the OT atoning sacrifices.
In the New Covenant, every day is a Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ.
We are free to assemble regularly on whatever day we choose. The first Christians chose Sunday, the day of the Lord's resurrection, and it's been the Christian practice ever since.

4. The TEN Commandments are not in opposition to grace or the Gospel

Indeed they are not, for they are subsumed in Jesus' two commands of Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).

5. all of mankind are still to this very day held to accountability by the TEN

God's New Covenant people are subject to Jesus' two commands (above), while also not being free to violate the Ten Commandments.

6. The TEN are not - "just for Jews".

Actually, obeying the Ten Commandments saves no one.
Only faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," saves from God's wrath on sin (Romans 5:9).

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