Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

Navair2 said:
The fact that Revelation 20 mentions a 1,000 year period a total of 6 times is all that I need to know.

It matters little if it is mentioned 666 times. It is a figurative number located in the most symbolic setting in Scripture. Revelation is saturated in obscure symbolism. When it comes to the future, Premillennialists tend to explain the rest of Scripture on this subject through the prism of Revelation 20. I found this a problematic approach.

Lampstands = churches (1:20)
Eyes = spirits (5:6)
Incense = Prayers of the saints (5:8)
Serpent = Satan (12:9)
Heads = Mountains (17:9)
Horns = kings (17:12)
Waters = People (17:15)

Creatures full of eyes with 6 wings (4:6)
A 7-eyed lamb (5:6)
People talking to mountains (6:16)
People being washed clean by blood (7:14)
Locusts with human faces (9:7)
Lion-headed horses (9:17)
Fire-breathing prophets (11:5)
A woman clothed with the sun while standing on the moon (12:1)
7-headed dragon that pulls stars down from heaven (12:3-4)
A woman with two wings flying like a great eagle (Rev 12:14)
A serpent vomiting out a river (12:15)
7-headed beast with 10 horns (13:1)
Frogs coming out of the mouth of a dragon (16:13)
A blood-drinking harlot (17:6)

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

chad kincham · Apr 23, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You really need to read the text you are presenting to support the Premil theory before posting. The detail relating to the last trumpet of the seven proves it is the end of time, the end of wickedness, the end of sin, the end of death, end of corruption, end of Satan, thus proving Amillennialism and forbidding Premil. This is indeed the end!

Revelation 10:1-3: “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Preterist, Pretribulationist or Historist positions.

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!

The whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be etelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong all-consummating word that is rightly translated ‘finished’ in this reading and is consistently interpreted: completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

Except the mystery that’s about to be accomplished is the rapture of the church at His second coming, per Paul, behold I show you a MYSTERY, that occurs at the LAST TRUMP...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trumpet in Revelation is the 7th trumpet, and as the 7th trump is about to sound, the MYSTERY of God is about to be accomplished...

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This is the end of the age of the gentiles... the rapture has occurred, and now God turns His attention back to the Jews, during the last half of the tribulation, aka the great tribulation, called by Daniel the time of JACOBS trouble - we know this because the next occurrence is the Ark of the covenant appearing in the temple in heaven.

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

That revelation 11 is the second half of the trib is the two witnesses show up and testify for 3,5 years.

There’s. a lot you really fail to understand about eschatology, and I don’t feel like spending hours debating it.

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

chad kincham said:
And he’s therefore not bound, for most of the world, thus he’s not bound in the bottomless pit in chains.

And Satan hindered Paul:

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Looks like you need to examine your view more thoroughly.

You carefully avoided all my texts above that prove the Amil scenario. Premils have to in order for their beliefs to stand.

The fact is: Satan is a spiritual being that is spiritually bound from deceiving the Gentiles no more. The light has been shining bright for 2000 years, the Gospel mission has reached all nations, Satan's kingdom has been massively plundered. Jesus is enthroned upon high, His enemies are under His feet. He is indeed king of kings and Lord of lords.

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

chad kincham said:
Except the mystery that’s about to be accomplished is the rapture of the church at His second coming, per Paul, behold I show you a MYSTERY, that occurs at the LAST TRUMP...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trumpet in Revelation is the 7th trumpet, and as the 7th trump is about to sound, the MYSTERY of God is about to be accomplished...

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This is the end of the age of the gentiles... the rapture has occurred, and now God turns His attention back to the Jews, during the last half of the tribulation, aka the great tribulation, called by Daniel the time of JACOBS trouble - we know this because the next occurrence is the Ark of the covenant appearing in the temple in heaven.

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

That revelation 11 is the second half of the trib is the two witnesses show up and testify for 3,5 years.

There’s. a lot you really fail to understand about eschatology, and I don’t feel like spending hours debating it.

Why do Premils constantly avoid the sacred text presented and the attached arguments? They clearly have to, to let their doctrine fit. The Bible negates your argument. The fact is: time shall be no more after Christ comes at the last trumpet (John 6:39-44, 54, John 12:48 and Revelation 10:5-7). We then enter into eternity. This is the final day. There is no space for some future Jewish age. The only age that exists until the end is a Jewish and Gentile age - that is the new covenant era.

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

chad kincham said:
This is the end of the age of the gentiles... the rapture has occurred, and now God turns His attention back to the Jews, during the last half of the tribulation, aka the great tribulation, called by Daniel the time of JACOBS trouble - we know this because the next occurrence is the Ark of the covenant appearing in the temple in heaven.

Pretribbers repeat this view without the slightest of evidence. They notably never furnish us with hard quotes, just misleading fly-by theological sound-bites that have been long exposed as error.

Where is a rapture of the Church mentioned in Jeremiah? Where is it linked to Jacob's Trouble?
Where is a literal seven-year tribulation mentioned in Jeremiah? Where is it linked to Jacob's Trouble?
Where is a 3rd coming of Christ mentioned in Jeremiah? Where is it linked to Jacob's Trouble?

keras · Apr 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It seems to me that you are looking for an earthly kingdom, not the new heavens and new earth.

The Kingdom of Jesus will be on earth - for 1000 years. Only at the end of the 1000 years, will he hand the Kingdom to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 THEN the NH, NE comes, for Eternity.

My belief that all of Rev 20 is earthly scenes and events, is proved:

1/ By how Satan, is consigned to the earth in Revelation 12:9 and is there when Jesus Returns, to chain him up. Rev 20:2

2/ By how the Trib martyrs are brought back to life and they reign with Christ, having Returned to the earth; for the next 1000 years. Rev 5:10

3/ By how Satan, on his release, Rev 20:7-9, gathers a huge army from the four quarters of the earth, to attack God's people and the holy City.

4/ By how the all dead are brought out of their earthly graves and out of the seas.

The idea of Amillennialism, is false and contrary to Bible prophecy.

sovereigngrace · Apr 24, 2021

keras said:
The Kingdom of Jesus will be on earth - for 1000 years. Only at the end of the 1000 years, will he hand the Kingdom to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 THEN the NH, NE comes, for Eternity.

My belief that all of Rev 20 is earthly scenes and events, is proved:

1/ By how Satan, is consigned to the earth in Revelation 12:9 and is there when Jesus Returns, to chain him up. Rev 20:2

2/ By how the Trib martyrs are brought back to life and they reign with Christ, having Returned to the earth; for the next 1000 years. Rev 5:10

3/ By how Satan, on his release, Rev 20:7-9, gathers a huge army from the four quarters of the earth, to attack God's people and the holy City.

4/ By how the all dead are brought out of their earthly graves and out of the seas.

The idea of Amillennialism, is false and contrary to Bible prophecy.

Again, zero evidence. Just more ongoing personal opinion. This reinforces the error of your position. You are reinforcing the Op.

Douggg · Apr 24, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I'm not just talking about deception, I'm talking about them thinking that they can go and destroy Christ Himself. The angels did not try to attack and destroy God. So, that's not a good comparison. Do you really think that mortal humans will see Jesus in all His glory and think that they can defeat Him?

In the sixth seal event, humans see Jesus in His glory before the throne, and it terrifies them that they want to hide in caves....

until the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon (Satan) convinces them that they can make war on Jesus.

So, to answer you question, yes. For one thing, at the end of the thousand years a different set of humans in the nations will not be seeing Jesus directly when he is in Jerusalem; not in the same size as will be the case of the sixth seal generation and as he is descending to earth a thousand years earlier.

From where you are now - if Jesus were in Jerusalem, could you go outside look in the direction of Jerusalem and think you will be able to see Jesus?

We don't have enough information on all these details. We should just go by what the bible says. Jesus will be here on earth.

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This is the Premil justification on every facet of the doctrine. It is an argument from silence. You acknowledge that the Op is correct.

Give me a passage that states the judgment is definitely on the millennial earth?

All I am hearing is opinion. You need to start quoting actual Scripture. Everything is implied or inferred in your arguments. That does not cut it with Amils.

When multiple NT Scripture is presented that forbids your position you just dismiss it, deferring to your faulty opinion of Revelation 20. The whole of Scripture is interpreted in the light of this this one figurative passage. Do you not see the danger of that?

If you are going to foist the GWT onto the Olivet Discourse then you can accept Jesus Christ is on earth for the battle of Armageddon as well as the Second Coming, more than 42 months prior to Armageddon. The Second Coming is all about Christ on the earth equal to Christ being on the earth the first coming. They both are called comings. Christ is revealed on earth. Christ does not need to be revealed in heaven. They already know Christ and the one on the throne.

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
We are already over 6000 years of history. Look around and you will see sin infested wickedness everywhere.

6 days of the week are given over to sin. Not all 7. Remember the 7th Day?

keras · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Again, zero evidence. Just more ongoing personal opinion. This reinforces the error of your position. You are reinforcing the Op.

People here can see how you ignore the scriptures I used to prove that Jesus does come back to the earth and His Millennium reign is on earth.
Your credibility is zero.

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
So you claimed that you do read God's Word. Okay, then show us in the Scripture that Satan bound in "eternal darkness" for "thousands of years?" Because we don't teach that.

That is what Spiritual Jew posted:

Spiritual Jew said:
Was Satan not also an angel? Why would that verse not include him?

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, all things are possible. God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and the power ensues.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

Do you cause Satan sleepless nights or does he cause you sleepless nights?

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

Your defeatist theology denies the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. You declare the first coming perfectly, then deny God the ability to perfectly set up a 1000 year reign on earth.

sovereigngrace · Apr 24, 2021

Timtofly said:
6 days of the week are given over to sin. Not all 7. Remember the 7th Day?

The day of the Lord ushers in a perfect and eternal day, not more of the same. Time is completed.

sovereigngrace · Apr 24, 2021

Timtofly said:
Your defeatist theology denies the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. You declare the first coming perfectly, then deny God the ability to perfectly set up a 1000 year reign on earth.

I deny what is not in Scripture. You or no Premil has showed Christ on earth in Revelation 20. That is because it doesn't exist. You cannot prove what is not there.

sovereigngrace · Apr 24, 2021

keras said:
People here can see how you ignore the scriptures I used to prove that Jesus does come back to the earth and His Millennium reign is on earth.
Your credibility is zero.

I understand your frustration but you have proved nothing yet. Presenting Scripture that shows Him leaving heaven to receive His bride is a core belief of every view. That does not prove Jesus is on earth in Revelation 20, and you know that. You are therefore arguing from silence.

Jesus is reigning now with His elect in heaven in matchless glory.

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
What is glaring is that you (or any Premil) have yet to show Christ on earth during some alleged future millennium. That is because it is not in Scripture. It will never happen. It only exists in the Premil teaching manuals.

You mean Revelation 20, that your private interpretation and opinion of Recapitulation literally changes the text of Revelation even though John warned:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Premil do not add Christ to the text of Revelation 20. We just see it as a continuation of John's writings, despite the added chapter and verse markings. I wonder if adding numbers to John's letter counts towards that curse? Recapitulation is an addition to the reading of the text. We do not even have to interpret symbolic terms. Satan, the FP, and the beast show up at Armageddon. The FP and the beast are defeated by Jesus on the earth. Satan is bound for 1000 years. The FP and beast are in the lake of fire for 1000 years. Simple reading comprehension. It is the NT. Do not even need the OT for corroboration, since you take issue with comparing Scripture with Scripture, unless it suits your theology.

sovereigngrace · Apr 24, 2021

Timtofly said:
You mean Revelation 20, that your private interpretation and opinion of Recapitulation literally changes the text of Revelation even though John warned:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Premil do not add Christ to the text of Revelation 20. We just see it as a continuation of John's writings, despite the added chapter and verse markings. I wonder if adding numbers to John's letter counts towards that curse? Recapitulation is an addition to the reading of the text. We do not even have to interpret symbolic terms. Satan, the FP, and the beast show up at Armageddon. The FP and the beast are defeated by Jesus on the earth. Satan is bound for 1000 years. The FP and beast are in the lake of fire for 1000 years. Simple reading comprehension. It is the NT. Do not even need the OT for corroboration, since you take issue with comparing Scripture with Scripture, unless it suits your theology.

I will take your avoidance as an admission that my initial claim is spot on. Your are now left with mere opinion. No Premil can present anything in Revelation 20 to support their theory because it does not exist. I suspect you know that.

As I have previously demonstrated: Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I see you have a habit of avoiding simple questions that disprove your position, but are quick to make demands of others that are relaying strong biblical truth.

Please address the following avoided questions:

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

If you cannot address these will you address the following? No Premil will address this. I can only take this as an admission that there is no connection between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, and that Premil is extra-biblical.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

Wait? I thought the NT clears up and is more specific than the OT. Why do you demand opposite of what you claim has to be? No one has to find specifics in the OT. In fact you all spiritualize the OT, and take away any practical application. If you applied Scripture to physical reality it would negate amill theology. Why avoid reality and look for a needle in a haystack to avoid the facts?

Timtofly · Apr 24, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
No, it doesn't make sense based on what other scriptures teaches about what will happen when Christ returns. It doesn't make sense to believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstituted in the future. Which is what you believe if you think those passages from Ezekiel and Zechariah will be fulfilled in the future. You have done nothing to show any basis for believing that God would want animal sacrifices to be reinstituted in the future.

Why apply specifics from the OT and change the reading of the NT arbitrarily? You imply an animal sacrifice, but deny the literal description that has nothing to do with sacrifices. No one knows the specifics of how the Temple will work. Just declaring speculative strawman points is avoiding the actual words of the text. Do you think God has it under control and knows what He is Doing? Why tell God, "there just cannot be sacrifices"? He does know what you are posting.

Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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