Here's why people are skeptical about vaccine safety

whatbogsends

Senior Veteran
Aug 29, 2003
10,370
8,314
Visit site
✟281,429.00
Faith
Atheist
Kassidi Kurill, 39, died on February 5, four days after taking the second dose of the Moderna injection.

The woman from Ogden, Utah, had no known preexisting health conditions.

However, the Utah Department of Health’s chief medical examiner Dr Erik Christensen said Kurill’s death was just “temporally related” to the second Moderna dose.

“We don't have any evidence that there are connections between the vaccines and deaths at this point,” Christensen he told Fox News.
...
He added that proving that the vaccine caused Kurill’s death would be difficult unless it was an anaphylaxis case, meaning sudden death.


'Healthy' single mom, 39, who 'died of multiple organ failure' after Moderna Covid vaccine 'did NOT die from jab' (thesun.co.uk)

After further review:

The COVID-19 vaccine did not factor in the death of a West Point woman whose passing days after getting her second inoculation shot prompted questions from her family, according to health officials.

The Utah Department of Health and the Office of Medical Examiner, or OME, issued a statement Thursday saying it had investigated the deaths of people who had recently taken the vaccine. After conducting the probes, the statement said, investigators found no links between the vaccine and any deaths.

“The OME has determined there have been NO DEATHS caused by the COVID-19 vaccines to date in Utah. The OME is committed to investigating any deaths that fall under its jurisdiction where decedents had recently received the COVID-19 vaccine,” the statement read.


Utah health officials say COVID-19 vaccine hasn't factored in any deaths | Health Care | standard.net

It's pretty far fetched that a healthy 39-year old woman gets the shot, begins feeling ill immediately, dies within 4 days, and is still determined that "the vaccine didn't contribute to the death".

Here's the real crux of it, later on in the story:

Thursday’s statement seemed to reference the news stories about Kurill, warning against reporting on such things prematurely. “To that end, we call on members of the media to wait for all the facts to be known prior to reporting information that could lead to undue diminished confidence in these life-saving vaccines,” said the statement.

The Utah Department of Health and OME statement said officials will investigate reports of serious side effects. “Public confidence in the COVID-19 vaccine is critical, and providing absolute transparency on the vaccine’s side effects is our goal,” it said.

The media and officials are concerned primarily about instilling confidence in the vaccines. Transparency about the side effects seems secondary, at best.

There were 3 other instances of deaths of allegedly healthy people in Utah who died after their vaccines. Similarly, all have been determined to be only "temporally related". The others were all older, and i haven't been able to find any additional information about the specifics of those cases, so i can't comment as to whether they were likely or even potentially vaccine related.

I acknowledge that the deaths from the vaccines are (extremely) rare. However, when they don't classify someone who a) was healthy, b) immediately got sick after taking the vaccine, and c) died in short order as "a death that the vaccine contributed to", it calls the statistics they provide about the safety of vaccines into question.
 
Last edited:

sesquiterpene

Well-Known Member
Sep 14, 2018
732
611
USA
✟160,019.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Kassidi Kurill, 39, died on February 5, four days after taking the second dose of the Moderna injection.

It's pretty far fetched that a healthy 39-year old woman gets the shot, begins feeling ill immediately, dies within 4 days, and is still determined that "the vaccine didn't contribute to the death".
Why? Healthy 39 year old women also die without taking a vaccine, but they don't make headlines. This is merely an example of how it easy it can be to infer causation without considering exactly how death rates compare with a control group.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's pretty far fetched that a healthy 39-year old woman gets the shot, begins feeling ill immediately, dies within 4 days, and is still determined that "the vaccine didn't contribute to the death".
I believe your reasoning has a problem - selection bias. Yes, it is unusual for a healthy 39 year old woman to die. Of anything.

Yet about 1 of every 1,000 39 year old women in the US will die this year.

You are telling us about the rare exception, and remaining silent about the overwhelming majority. That is not fair game.

IHere's the real crux of it, later on in the story:

Thursday’s statement seemed to reference the news stories about Kurill, warning against reporting on such things prematurely. “To that end, we call on members of the media to wait for all the facts to be known prior to reporting information that could lead to undue diminished confidence in these life-saving vaccines,” said the statement.

The Utah Department of Health and OME statement said officials will investigate reports of serious side effects. “Public confidence in the COVID-19 vaccine is critical, and providing absolute transparency on the vaccine’s side effects is our goal,” it said.

The media and officials are concerned primarily about instilling confidence in the vaccines. Transparency about the side effects seems secondary, at best.
You are speculating - all we can reasonably infer is a concern that about loss of confidence in the vaccine. You appear to believe this motivates officials to distort the truth. Well, maybe, but only maybe. However, there is no less reason that they are motivated to present the truth. After all, there is no doubt at all that there is an irrational fear of vaccines in the USA. How do you know that that these official statement do not represent a desire to combat such irrational fear?
 
Upvote 0

SigurdReginson

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2020
479
641
40
PNW
✟45,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I'd be curious to know what the rate of death is for those who have taken the vaccine, cause I guarantee you the rate of death among those have died from what it's protecting against is quite a lot higher. o_O

As for myself, I'm glad I got the Moderna vaccine.
 
Upvote 0

Freed Man

Active Member
Jul 8, 2020
63
35
68
Colorado
✟18,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The fact of the matter is that people have died after taking the vaccine, and not just people who were high risk or would have died anyway, but people who were perfectly healthy with no pre existing conditions, etc. There is no evidence that the death of these people was not caused by the vaccine. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to be leery of the vaccine and be hesitant to take it. Deaths from taking the vaccine might be extremely rare but I wouldn't want to be the next person it happens to. I heard one time that the chance of dieing from the covid 19 virus is about 1% and the chance of dieing from the vaccine is also 1%. Since the chances of dieing are about the same either way, I'd rather take my chances with the covid itself rather than pumping myself with some chemicals in a vaccine that may or may not work.
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Site Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,984
12,065
East Coast
✟838,850.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Kassidi Kurill, 39, died on February 5, four days after taking the second dose of the Moderna injection.

The woman from Ogden, Utah, had no known preexisting health conditions.

However, the Utah Department of Health’s chief medical examiner Dr Erik Christensen said Kurill’s death was just “temporally related” to the second Moderna dose.

“We don't have any evidence that there are connections between the vaccines and deaths at this point,” Christensen he told Fox News.
...

He added that proving that the vaccine caused Kurill’s death would be difficult unless it was an anaphylaxis case, meaning sudden death.

'Healthy' single mom, 39, who 'died of multiple organ failure' after Moderna Covid vaccine 'did NOT die from jab' (thesun.co.uk)

After further review:

The COVID-19 vaccine did not factor in the death of a West Point woman whose passing days after getting her second inoculation shot prompted questions from her family, according to health officials.

The Utah Department of Health and the Office of Medical Examiner, or OME, issued a statement Thursday saying it had investigated the deaths of people who had recently taken the vaccine. After conducting the probes, the statement said, investigators found no links between the vaccine and any deaths.

“The OME has determined there have been NO DEATHS caused by the COVID-19 vaccines to date in Utah. The OME is committed to investigating any deaths that fall under its jurisdiction where decedents had recently received the COVID-19 vaccine,” the statement read.


Utah health officials say COVID-19 vaccine hasn't factored in any deaths | Health Care | standard.net

It's pretty far fetched that a healthy 39-year old woman gets the shot, begins feeling ill immediately, dies within 4 days, and is still determined that "the vaccine didn't contribute to the death".

Here's the real crux of it, later on in the story:

Thursday’s statement seemed to reference the news stories about Kurill, warning against reporting on such things prematurely. “To that end, we call on members of the media to wait for all the facts to be known prior to reporting information that could lead to undue diminished confidence in these life-saving vaccines,” said the statement.

The Utah Department of Health and OME statement said officials will investigate reports of serious side effects. “Public confidence in the COVID-19 vaccine is critical, and providing absolute transparency on the vaccine’s side effects is our goal,” it said.

The media and officials are concerned primarily about instilling confidence in the vaccines. Transparency about the side effects seems secondary, at best.

There were 3 other instances of deaths of allegedly healthy people in Utah who died after their vaccines. Similarly, all have been determined to be only "temporally related". The others were all older, and i haven't been able to find any additional information about the specifics of those cases, so i can't comment as to whether they were likely or even potentially vaccine related.

I acknowledge that the deaths from the vaccines are (extremely) rare. However, when they don't classify someone who a) was healthy, b) immediately got sick after taking the vaccine, and c) died in short order as "a death that the vaccine contributed to", it calls the statistics they provide about the safety of vaccines into question.

I agree that any death remotely connected with having taken a vaccine should be investigated. But, you know as well as I do, that when you have this large a number of people taking it, people are going to die soon after. Why? Because people die all day, every day, for not always clear reasons. Somebody is going to die right after taking the vaccine for no other reason, except they were going to die anyway. But, it will appear connected. That's just in the cards.

So, jumping from a miniscule number of deaths to "this is reason to be skeptical" shows you have not included the relevant point: people will die after taking the vaccine that has no relation to the vaccine, but proximity will make it seem causal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JSRG
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I heard one time that the chance of dieing from the covid 19 virus is about 1% and the chance of dieing from the vaccine is also 1%.
Well, you were told false information - the comparison is not even close: I believe the risk of dying from covid, as you say, about 1%.

The risk of dying from the vaccine, based on what is known, is much, much lower:

Over 211 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 3,486 reports of death (0.0016%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

The risk from the disease is, yes, over 500 times higher.

And I am not even sure that this figure of 0.0016% represents deaths attributable to the vaccine.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,737
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟651,747.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Were those deaths just out of the blue, with no underlying health problems? That's the element you're leaving out of the equation.
I am aware of this limitation. But we all know that the risk of 39 year old women dying, overall, is quite low.

This data is irrelevant - the reasoning in the OP is simply not correct regardless - they are arguing from anecdotes. Not valid (as other posters have pointed out).
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,737
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟651,747.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I am aware of this limitation. But we all know that the risk of 39 year old women dying, overall, is quite low.

This data is irrelevant - the reasoning in the OP is simply not correct regardless - they are arguing from anecdotes. Not valid (as other posters have pointed out).

How many anecdotes does it take to make a truth?
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How many anecdotes does it take to make a truth?
A statistically significant number. And, no, I don't know the number. Which is why I employ a strategy that anti-vaxxers cannot afford to: I trust qualified experts.

This is a road you guys cannot go down. I am not saying they are not qualified experts who oppose vaccination. There are, but they are a tiny minority.

And before you post that 40% figure of health care professionals, I suggest you look at that information in more detail before using it.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I will now state the obvious: whenever an anti-vaxxer posts information about the risks of the vaccine, they always remain entirely silent on the benefits of the vaccine. I challenge anyone to find a counter-example: a post in any thread on this site where an anti-vaxxer has properly contrasted the risk of the vaccine with its benefits.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Wait for an official news release. Allow us to do our job controlling the narrative.
Now what does this really mean? It sure sounds like an appeal to fear, with no substantiation. We hear all the time about how this crisis will be used by dark sinister forces to control our lives. Well, where is the evidence? Where is the evidence that control is being exercised that goes beyond what is prudent given that we are dealing with a worldwide pandemic.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,534
8,429
up there
✟306,970.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Now what does this really mean? It sure sounds like an appeal to fear, with no substantiation. We hear all the time about how this crisis will be used by dark sinister forces to control our lives. Well, where is the evidence? Where is the evidence that control is being exercised that goes beyond what is prudent given that we are dealing with a worldwide pandemic.
More control and lost freedoms that will not totally return. Building back better as they call it. A major shift in society not seen in other pandemics. A few people might think that the tests and trials of the last year speak not of the pandemic, but what is going on behind the scenes taking advantage of a pandemic. Many people are well aware of how this was going to play out simply because a world organization said what it was going to do in the event of a pandemic. It would be used to trigger a long awaited great reset. Spoken a month before this started and now totally under way.

Matters not whether people believe it or not, being so focused on self interest, but these things will happen no matter how people delude themselves. Doesn't matter what we believe either way. A slow corporate movement comprised of 180 nations and hundreds of corporations, even a Pope, is underway and we continue to give up freedoms as we have for the last 20 years. Keep focusing on the vaccines and their safety to distract yourselves from behind the scenes. Same thing that happens everytime some group wants us to believe in outside threats and do as they say for our own protection. Life is a con game for those in charge.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,737
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟651,747.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Now what does this really mean? It sure sounds like an appeal to fear, with no substantiation. We hear all the time about how this crisis will be used by dark sinister forces to control our lives. Well, where is the evidence? Where is the evidence that control is being exercised that goes beyond what is prudent given that we are dealing with a worldwide pandemic.

Definitions of words is one part of it. You mentioned "beyond what is prudent". As long as the experts we hear from are always assumed to be looking out for the good of everyone, we're always going to assume that what they consider prudent or necessary is just that. However, history has taught us that those in government who gain power are not keen to let it go. It explains why governments almost only get bigger rather than smaller--at least willingly.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,660
5,770
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,877.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
More control and lost freedoms that will not totally return.
How do you know this? Please be specific.

Many people are well aware of how this was going to play out simply because a world organization said what it was going to do in the event of a pandemic. It would be used to trigger a long awaited great reset.
What, exactly, are you talking about? What organization?

A slow corporate movement comprised of 180 nations and hundreds of corporations, even a Pope, is underway and we continue to give up freedoms as we have for the last 20 years.
Do you have any credible evidence - even a smidgen - for this?
 
  • Like
Reactions: SarahsKnight
Upvote 0