Justification: What are the misunderstandings between Catholics and Protestants?

fhansen

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Catholics rely on grace, on God, to change them, to make them new creations who fulfill the law by the Spirit, being under grace rather than under the law as He writes the law on our hearts.
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Rom 3:9

So we understand, without having to engage in any double-think or revisionism or reading between the lines, verses such as the following:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"
Matt 17:19
 
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fhansen

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Well if it is works only that sounds much like Pelagianism if salvation is by works then you can save yourself, there is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus.
Unless the works, just like the faith, come from Him, from grace IOW.
 
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fhansen

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I believe if Catholic does not agree with the catehism statement of Anathema he/she is automatically excommunicated from the church and has Anathema put on them aswell.


Quote
If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Basically if Catholic priest goes for your statement he loses , if he goes against it he loses too cuz he gets excommunicated from his Church and gets put on by the Church Anathema on him making him unable to be saved.
When you can reconcile the following canons of the Council of Trent, you'll understand Catholicism and better understand the gospel as well. The last canon is canon 9, the one you listed.

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Anathemas were part of the language of the day, basically meaning 'let them be shunned'.
 
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fhansen

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The anathemas of Trent have not actually been revoked, but neither has the once considered to be infallible Cantate Domino Papal Bull. However.... due to the Church's current use of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine, it would appear that the Cantate Domino Papal Bull and the Trent anathemas no longer apply to native born non-Catholic Christians. Obviously Ultra Traditional Catholics will strongly disagree with said statement and perhaps a small minority of Traditional Catholics as well.
Today's teachings reflect the church's understanding that most Protestants are born into a now centuries-old legacy that they did not create but which has been the norm for many generations. Here are some teachings that apply:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
 
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fhansen

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Paul couldn't be clearer.

James was not an apostle, did not sit under Jesus' teaching for more than three years, nor did he receive it from the third heaven as did Paul (2 Corinthians 12:1-5), who was an apostle.

Nothing is unclear, James is reconciled to Paul in the Reformation, and maybe before that for all I know.
Did the Reformation correct Jesus as well?

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:20

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean." Matt 23:26-27

Jesus wants us clean on the inside first of all, certainly not sinners. So does James, as does Paul:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
The Reformation reconciled James and Paul.
Did the Reformation correct Jesus as well?
Keep in mind that Jesus was born, lived, taught and died under the Old Covenant and the Law.
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:20
Does it not in the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us (Romans 5:19)?
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17
Which no one can do as required for righteousness, therefore, all who rely on the Law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10) of damnation, from which they are redeemed only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin, and right standing with God's justice in regard to their sin.
"Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean." Matt 23:26-27
Doesn't mean they have the power to clean the inside, for all who rely on the Law are under a curse because of their inability to keep it as required for righteousness with God.
Jesus wants us clean on the inside first of all, certainly not sinners.
So does James, as does Paul:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
Who are speaking in the New Covenant of grace, not Law, to the born again, within whom dwells the Holy Spirit to empower them to obey.
 
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fhansen

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Keep in mind that Jesus was born, lived, taught and died under the Old Covenant and the Law..
Jesus taught the gospel. There is only one. The basis is this:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John17:3
Does it not in the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us (Romans 5:19)?
It surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law when it surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. They were already snow-covered dung-heaps, clean on the outside only. God isn't looking for more of the same.
Which no one can do according as required for righteousness, therefore, all you rely on the Law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10) of damnation, from which they are redeemed only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin, and right standing with God's justice in regard to their sin.
You're not quite understanding what redemption means, though. We don't rely on the law at all. In order to fulfill the law we now rely on grace.

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Rom 5:21

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:16

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4
Doesn't mean they have the power top clean the inside, for all you rely on the Law are under a curse because of their inability to keep it as required for righteousness with God.
Of course not; only God has the power to clean the inside, although He requires, for His purposes, our cooperation in the endeavor.
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15
Who are speaking in the New Covenant of grace, not Law, to the born again, within whom dwells the Holy Spirit to empower them to obey.
Of course, and obey they must even though they can still fail to fulfill their obligation. That's why Paul warns them.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Does it not in the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us (Romans 5:19)?

Which no one can do as required for righteousness, therefore,
all you rely on the Law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10) of damnation
Jesus taught the gospel. There is only one. The basis is this:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John17:3

It surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law when it surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. They were already snow-covered dung-heaps, clean on the outside only. God isn't looking for more of the same.

You're not quite understanding what redemption means, though. We don't rely on the law at all. In order to fulfill the law we now rely on grace.

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Rom 5:21

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:16

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

Of course not; only God has the power to clean the inside, although He requires, for His purposes, our cooperation in the endeavor.

Of course, and obey they must even though they can still fail to fulfill their obligation. That's why Paul warns them.
The righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us (Romans 5:19) is one of the differences in justification between Catholics and the Reformers.

I'm not here to try to convince or change your mind about your church's doctrine, only to point out the differences.
 
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fhansen

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The righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us (Romans 5:19) is one of the differences in justification between Catholics and the Reformers.

I'm not here to try to convince or change your mind about your church's doctrine, only to point out the differences.
Ok, and I agree.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

We just believe that when He makes us righteous, He really makes us righteous, but with a righteousness we must now act upon and express.
 
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fhansen

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Hello, my thoughts are you can't have faith devoid of love. When Protestants speak of "justification by faith alone", they mean that the work of justification is carried out in what Christ accomplished on the cross for the believers.
As far as salvation is concerned, we believe it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. That's where the terminology can appear confusing, because alone doesn't mean devoid of other things, but rather that we are saved(justified) by faith in Christ. Love was the reason Christ endured the very wrath of God.
So Christ's work (It is finished) is imputed to believers, and then the works believers do are evidence of an active faith.
Augustine put it this way, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

And of course Paul said, in 1 Cor 13, “...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing.”

And, again, the Church teaches, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
 
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HosannaHM

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Ok, and I agree.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

We just believe that when He makes us righteous, He really makes us righteous, but with a righteousness we must now act upon and express.

As a Protestant, I agree with this statement. But as I said earlier, Catholic doctrine seems to lump all the terms together (regeneration, justification, sanctification) into justification. I really do believe that Christ makes us righteous by His righteousness, but if you are staying consistent with Catholic doctrine (and correct me if I'm wrong), don't Catholics have to say that the person and Christ BOTH work to make the person righteous? Your understanding of "making us righteous" and a Protestant's understanding of sanctification is different at the root. A true believer will bear fruit, but that doesn't work to justify us. I dare not take away the power and the glory of the cross by thinking I need to add to the finished work of Christ. My works are evidence of His work. Jesus never marveled at the work of a man, but he did once at the faith of one (Luke 7:1-10). I don't see this as "double think" at all, but rather theological consistency.
 
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I will look into getting a copy of the catechism. I found some of it online, and I read the parts on grace and merit. It is well written, but vague on what I believe to be the greatest point of contention: Am I justified by the work of Christ alone? Or are my works necessary in addition to His in order for salvation to occur?

Well, I am strongly against Catholicism because they bow down to statues, pray to dead saints, confess their sins to a priest, call men their father, uplift holy men in long flowing robes, add traditions to the Bible and make them on equal authority with Scripture, etc, etc.; But ironically they are not wrong (when they speak generally and not in detail) in that the Bible says that you need to have works as a part of your faith.

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith (Which runs contrary to the Bible). Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:

(adjective):
1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.​

Source:
Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).​

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11. Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the afflication of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
 
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As a Protestant, I agree with this statement. But as I said earlier, Catholic doctrine seems to lump all the terms together (regeneration, justification, sanctification) into justification. I really do believe that Christ makes us righteous by His righteousness, but if you are staying consistent with Catholic doctrine (and correct me if I'm wrong), don't Catholics have to say that the person and Christ BOTH work to make the person righteous? Your understanding of "making us righteous" and a Protestant's understanding of sanctification is different at the root. A true believer will bear fruit, but that doesn't work to justify us. I dare not take away the power and the glory of the cross by thinking I need to add to the finished work of Christ. My works are evidence of His work. Jesus never marveled at the work of a man, but he did once at the faith of one (Luke 7:1-10). I don't see this as "double think" at all, but rather theological consistency.

James says,

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).​

This is in context to being saved (justified) before God (and not men) because if you skip back a chapter, James says this:

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:21-22).
But what about Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5?

Paul is condemning “Works ALONE Salvationism” (that did not include God's grace). Paul was also referring to the Old Law (the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal and not the laws of Christ).

How so? Well, in Acts of the Apostles 15, we learn at the Jerusalem council that a certain sect of Pharisees were trying to deceive Gentile Christians into thinking they had to be initially saved by being circumcised, and also by keeping the Old Law (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses). But Christians are not under the Old Law, but they are under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) (1 Corinthians 9:21) (Romans 8:2). Anyways, if a person thought that circumcision was the entrance gate to salvation (instead of being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ), they would be making the Law or a Work the basis or foundation of their salvation. Please read the following verses:

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

Now, the apostle Paul also fought against this heresy that said you had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved, too.

For Paul said:

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).

“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek,
was compelled to be circumcised:” (Galatians 2:3).

“What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?” (Romans 3:1).

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.” (Romans 4:9-12).​

This is why Paul spoke negatively against being saved by works or the Law (when those terms are used generically). In context, you will find that these works or the Law was in reference to the Old Law (the 613), and Paul never spoke against the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Paul was saying that you cannot save yourself by Law Alone or Works ALone without God's grace. We cannot go back to the Old Law to be justified because it was nailed to the cross or fulfilled. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). This is why we need to look at the whole counsel of God's Word.

But many today have taken the Faith Alone teaching way too seriously or literally to mean that they can turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level (See Jude 1:4).

For example:

In an LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009, a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted in four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,

“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.”​

And in a post dated August 3, 2009, on Sodini's website (the day before the killings) said;

“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

Source:
O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Kenneth Nally, another believer of Faith Alone (in the most literal sense) committed suicide in 1980 based on this teaching from John MacArthur's church. He was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven. MacArthur's church was sued by the family, but they doubled down on their belief to the court. They stated to the court that a Christian who commits suicide will go to Heaven.

Most churches today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level. This is the problem I have with Protestantism. Imagine if you told a child that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus plus nothing else and you never seen them again. They could turn out to be the next George Sodini, or Kenneth Nally. This is why this teaching is dangerous - IMO. For if works or holy living have nothing to do with our salvation, then we can just live life however we please and we can be our own Lords and masters instead of making Jesus our Lord and Master.

The apostle Paul says, “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,...” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Note: James 4:6 says that God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

The apostle Paul also says, “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But we have to realize that the gospel calls us to holiness. For the gospel call is... God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
 
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After we are saved by God's grace, works of faith as a part of our Sanctification play a part in God's plan of salvation for us. Just check out the following short list of verses.

  1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

  2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

  3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

  4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

  6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

  8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

  9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

  10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

  11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

For in my opinion, these above verses (if read plainly) are undisputable in that I have to be faithful until death as a part of receiving the crown of life.
 
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For me it is a contradiction to say that works or holy living does not play a part in God's plan of salvation and then also claim that works and holy living always follow a true genuine faith. It's like a backhanded way of saying that you are saved by works and or holy living but one simply does not want to admit that. But the real problem is telling others that they are not saved by works or holy living because if you do that, they can in fact treat God's grace as a license for immorality (Whether you want that to happen or not). Jesus says by our words we can be justified, and by our words we can be condemned. So I will not say we are saved by Faith Alone with no Works of Faith or without living holy. For to do so can lead others down the wrong path (Whether I want that to happen or not).
 
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1 John 1:7 actually proves (by the use of other words) that the work of faith plays a part in the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin. For 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. What is the light? The light is God (1 John 1:5). What is walking in the light mean? Walking in the light is loviing your brother according to the indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to love our brother while abiding in God (a work of faith) in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15 confirms this truth, as well.
 
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fhansen

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As a Protestant, I agree with this statement. But as I said earlier, Catholic doctrine seems to lump all the terms together (regeneration, justification, sanctification) into justification.
Hmm. No, some Reformed theology has innovatively separated them, however :rolleyes:. Catholicism doesn't separate being justified-made just or righteous as new creations-from being just or righteous-otherwise shades of Is 5:20 might start dancing in our heads. And the essence of man's justice is his union with God.
I really do believe that Christ makes us righteous by His righteousness, but if you are staying consistent with Catholic doctrine (and correct me if I'm wrong), don't Catholics have to say that the person and Christ BOTH work to make the person righteous?
The righteousness comes from Him. We must accept it and cooperate in making it ours, as He intends.
Your understanding of "making us righteous" and a Protestant's understanding of sanctification is different at the root.
I'm not sure why that would be. To become righteous means to be made right, holy, to love to put it most accurately.
A true believer will bear fruit, but that doesn't work to justify us. I dare not take away the power and the glory of the cross by thinking I need to add to the finished work of Christ.
Why would it take way from His glory if He wants us to imitate and participate in His work, for our own good. Or to 'participate in the sufferings of Christ' as per Col 1:24? The more we understand God the more we understand that He wills only the very best for mankind, for His creation-and always has- because that’s the nature of love. Love and the good it does for others is the primary aspect of His glory and goodness-demonstrated most emphatically on the cross. He wants to share that love with us and for us to join Him in it, to love as He does. And love, necessarily, is a choice-or else it’s not love. And love, necessarily, acts, by its nature. God wants to lift up, to elevate man; He wants more for us than we can imagine and, like a good parent, that means eliciting more from us, which He knows we're capable of- as long as we're partnered with Him.
Your My works are evidence of His work. Jesus never marveled at the work of a man, but he did once at the faith of one (Luke 7:1-10).
We're justified freely by faith-but salvation only begins there. And we have to understand that even the faith praised by Jesus still comes from Him. So why does He praise it? Because we don’t have to do it; we don’t have to accept and express the gift of faith; it’s a matter of the will. Adam turned away, disbelieving God for all practical purposes. We’re to finally turn back, with the help of our experience in exile from God now combined with revelation and grace. And the more willingly we’re aligned with His will the greater our righteousness-the more we’re with Him instead of against Him IOW. And Jesus exalted work as well, even though the work is prepared in advance as per Eph 2:10, just as faith is. He separated the sheep from the goats based on what the sheep, who didn't even necessarily know they were sheep, did for "the least of these" in Matt 25.
I don't see this as "double think" at all, but rather theological consistency.
The following were the verses I referred to. As long as we agree that they stand as read, that we must do good, obey the law, and put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to gain eternal life, then neither of us have engaged in “double think”-providing we can agree on what the term means to begin with. :)

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"
Matt 17:19

Incidentally, when Paul spoke of faith, he was speaking of more than believing and trusting; he was speaking of relationship, of partnership with God as opposed to attempting to go it alone, still apart from direct union with Him, still with "a righteousness of my own that comes from the law" (Phil 3:9). He was speaking of grace. He arguably could've said that we're justified by God alone and meant the same thing. And when we maintain that we’re saved by Christ that’s equivalent to saying we’re saved by God; God, alone, saves. Faith involves knowing God personally and directly, to the extent that we can do so in this life.

Paul wasn’t against the law at all; he was against thinking that a mere external observance of the law meant that one was actually righteous; he was battling legalism, against being “under the law”. Later Augustine fought a similar battle against Pelagianism, both Paul and he understanding the absolute necessity of grace with internal change resulting in order for man to be saved. Some 75 years later at the 2nd Council of Orange many of Augustine’s arguments would be employed by the church to dogmatically set down in stone these truths of the faith. At the end of the list of canons, all insisting that man cannot justify himself in any way, cannot raise himself from the dead or free himself from his slavery, the “Conclusions” go on to tell us that, once justified, man is now equipped to work out his salvation. The last paragraph is particularly relevant:
The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)
 
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ralliann

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In context--Romans 2:1-3:8, after demonstrating the unrighteousness of the Gentiles (Romans 1:18-32), Paul is now demonstrating the unrighteousness of the Jews, in order to conclude all mankind under sin (Romans 3:9-10, Romans 11:32), so that righteousness is only from God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21).

In that context, his use of Romans 2:13, that "only doers of the law will be justified," is to demonstrate his point of no one being righteous because no one can "do" the law as required for righteousness, therefore, all who rely on the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10); i.e., the curse of the law on those who don't comply as required; i.e., everyone.
Therefore, justification is only by God through faith, apart from law/works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5).
We don't have to have faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work (salvation) "to get to obey God's law,"for Orthodox Jews deny Jesus Christ (no salvation) and yet "get to obey God's law."
I don't think Orthodox Jew's would even claim to keep the law from Moses. They know they do not. Not so much true in Christian discussion. The issue of oral law from the Rabbis is clouded in Christianity.
 
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fhansen

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I don't think Orthodox Jew's would even claim to keep the law from Moses. They know they do not. Not so much true in Christian discussion. The issue of oral law from the Rabbis is clouded in Christianity.
And yet Paul seemed to think he was pretty successful as a Pharisee at fulfilling the law. And other Pharisees thought they were quite holy, going by Jesus' reaction, calling them white-washed tombs and all, clean on the outside only. And God didn't create man to be a sinner so sin/lawlessness shouldn't be accepted as a norm for man either.

There's a solution to this conundrum though, and that's Jesus Christ as per Rom 7, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' as per John 15:5. He reconciles and brings us into partnership with God, He takes away our sins, the Spirit now helping us wash our robes and put to death the sins of the flesh, the right way now, from the inside out.
 
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