About Sabbath

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
I have a really easy solution for you - take a look at where BOTH sides agree.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
etc.

ALL of them agree with the SDA church and other Sabbath keeping groups -- on these key points.

1. All TEN of the TEN commandments were given as the moral law of God in Eden - to mankind
2. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the Law of God that is written on the heart under the new Covenant.
3. The Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture - points to Saturday - not Sunday.
4. The TEN Commandments are not in opposition to grace or the Gospel
5. all of mankind are still to this very day held to accountability by the TEN
6. The TEN are not - "just for Jews".

When scholarship on BOTH sides look at the Bible and AGREE on these key details then it is a pretty good option .. take this as the starting point and then work through the differences that remain.

Essentially given all that common ground - the Sabbath keeping POV is "God's Word cannot be edited ... not even by tradition"... and that is the crux of where all the differences reside when it comes to Sabbath keeping vs the position taken by those groups I listed.

So getting to the "easy part" of these Bible details -- where BOTH sides agree - is starting at "square 1".

When you find someone arguing for a solution that does not even make it to "square 1" -- the chances of success are less than optimal.

===============================

Having said that - some more easy things to look at are:

1. Romans 14 does not mention the 7th Sabbath at all in the entire chapter.
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes them all... he who observes the day observes it or the Lord"

2. A careful reading of Col 2 - shows that it also does not mention the 7th day Sabbath - it only refers to the "Shadow" Sabbaths of Lev 23 - the annual feast days. Holy days in the Bible.

3. Gal 4:9-11 only references pagan holy days that the former-pagan gentiles in Gal 4 "were returning to" after becoming Christians. The observance of even one of them was condemned by Paul in Gal 4 --- as contrasted to the defense of all the Bible holy days defended by Paul in Rom 14.

4. Gal 5:1-5 is not condemning the Bible. So then it is still a sin to "take God's name in vain" for example. Gal 5 is condemning the "made up tradition" of gentiles required to be circumcised to be saved... and the idea that a lost person could "earn salvation" by not taking God's name in vain - without accepting the Gospel and being born again.

And as for the bonus text making it all very very easy

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth: "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

(There is only "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 which is why in your OP that Matt 17 text shows both Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glory - before the cross... because there is only one Gospel and it was in the OT as well as NT. Same is true for New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 as well as Heb 8:6-12)

===================

Bob S said:
If those Bible scholars agree then they too are wrong.

Everyone has freewill. Someone "could" choose to refuse to see the Bible details that are so clear and easy to read that both sides agree to them - or a person can choose to admit to those Bible details.

The two main groups on the Sabbath topic are those who affirm the Saturday 7th day Sabbath version as compared to those who honor the Sabbath commandment by keeping Sunday. The Sunday scholarship includes the following examples

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

As compared to the 7th day Sabbath groups of which the Adventist church is one.

So here is a great example of Bible details so obvious that both sides agree - from the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19.

BobRyan said:
Westminster Confession of Faith -

Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

And here we can see it from the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19

BobRyan said:
Baptist Confession of Faith -- as formatted by C.H.Spurgeon

The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

Notice that even the Orthodox church confesses "the TEN" -- not merely "NINE" and affirms that they are not "just for Jews" in it's explicit statement found here - Friday at 5:36 PM #23

fatherforgivethem · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
I am right there with you, they both look good, and I have studied it for decades. But that is probably why it is a disputable matter in Romans 14 and a a shadow in Colossians 2.

Maybe because it is a subject of preference? If you want to keep the commandment, go ahead. But if you don't want, doesn't matter if you praise and worship during the week.

I would say Luke 16:16 tell us how this laws and prophets were until John. After Jesus died on cross and was resurrected, the "new laws" got established. And by "new laws" I mean the following verses with their sayings: Galatians 3:23-25 , Colossians 2:16 and maybe John 1:17 ?

Also one question: SDAs says that we are "His new nation of Israel", so we need to keep the Sabbath because of it. So, if we are "His new nation of Israel", why don't we need to also keep the circumcision, the specific festivals said on OT, etc, instead only keeping the Sabbath? Is it because Sabbath is the only of it mentioned on 10 commandments?

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
I noted the covenant and the giving of the Sabbath to Israel as a sign. And it is clear that the Sabbath was one of the appointed times. These tend to show it was for Israel, and included in Colossians 2.

It is beyond question that moral laws that apply to "all mankind" must also apply to Jews.

But more to the point - that specific argument above would wipe out the New Covenant for all Christians today.

Jer 31
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

That covenant is verbatim unchanged in the NT - Heb 8:6-12

Another great reason why the leading scholarship in mainline Christian denominations agree on the TEN as included in the moral law of God that Jeremiah and his readers would have known about.

No doubt Israel is a part of mankind - and as we see in Isaiah 56:6 gentiles are specifically singled out in the OT for Sabbath keeping.

“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;

=====================

And Israel is part of that "all mankind" group in Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to worship"

no wonder Christ said "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND " Mark 2:27

No wonder the GENTILES in Acts 13 ask for more gospel preaching to be given to them "the next Sabbath"

No wonder the NT writers record that they had Gospel preaching "every Sabbath" - for both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4

No wonder even the Orthodox church admits to these key Bible details on the "TEN"

Orthodox church

From The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties.

489. Which are the chief and general commandments of this law?

The following ten, which were written on two tables of stone:

1. I am the Lord thy God: thou shalt have none other gods beside me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters under the earth: thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy: six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord thy God.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother, that it may be well with thee, and that thy days may be long upon the earth.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, nor his land, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any of his cattle, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's. Exod. xx. 1-17; Deut. v. 6-21.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties." - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church â€¢ Pravoslavieto.com

"537. Is the Sabbath kept in the Christian Church?
It is not kept, strictly speaking, as a holy day ...

538. How, then, does the Christian Church obey the fourth commandment?

She still to every six days keeps a seventh, only not the last of the seven days, which is the Sabbath, but the first day in every week ... " - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church â€¢ Pravoslavieto.com

Notice that even the Orthodox church confesses "the TEN" -- not merely "NINE" and affirms that they are not "just for Jews" in it's explicit statement above.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

Isaiah 66 continued:

Isaiah prophesied momentous times in which many nations, not just Israel, would be judged. Assyria and Babylon would judge the nations. But then they too would be judged.

Isaiah describes this time in cosmic terms. He says that the constellations will not shine, the heavens will tremble, the earth will be shaken out of its place.

The whole order they knew was coming to an end.

Isa 13:1 The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
Isa 13:2 On a bare hill raise a signal; cry aloud to them; wave the hand for them to enter the gates of the nobles.
Isa 13:3 I myself have commanded my consecrated ones, and have summoned my mighty men to execute my anger, my proudly exulting ones.
Isa 13:4 The sound of a tumult is on the mountains as of a great multitude! The sound of an uproar of kingdoms, of nations gathering together! The LORD of hosts is mustering a host for battle.
Isa 13:5 They come from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, the LORD and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Isa 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come!
Isa 13:7 Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt.
Isa 13:8 They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.
Isa 13:11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.
Isa 13:12 I will make people more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.
Isa 13:14 And like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with none to gather them, each will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land.
Isa 13:15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
Isa 13:16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.
Isa 13:17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.
Isa 13:18 Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children.
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them.
Isa 13:20 It will never be inhabited or lived in for all generations; no Arab will pitch his tent there; no shepherds will make their flocks lie down there.
Isa 13:21 But wild animals will lie down there, and their houses will be full of howling creatures; there ostriches will dwell, and there wild goats will dance.
Isa 13:22 Hyenas will cry in its towers, and jackals in the pleasant palaces; its time is close at hand and its days will not be prolonged.

God took out His wrath on the nations. The destruction of the people was seen as the destruction of their gods as these gods were seen as regional.

He talks about the host of heaven rotting away, sky rolling up, etc. Imagery from these sections is later taken up by John in Revelation to describe the judging of the nations.

But the context is not the end of time here but the judgment on Babylon by the Medes, which is now an historic event.

Isa 34:1 Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it.
Isa 34:2 For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood.
Isa 34:4 All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction.
Isa 34:6 The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
Isa 34:7 Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat.
Isa 34:8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

So Isaiah describes this time of the shaking of the heavens and the earth, a changing of the order of nations, a judgment of God. Then he recounts a new heavens and new earth, where Israel is restored in covenant blessing.

But the nation judged is again one that he judged at that time in the past, in history, Edom.

So the passage regarding the Levites, new moons, Sabbaths, etc. is talking about this time of restoration following Gods bringing them back from captivity. They receive the covenant blessings of Numbers and Deuteronomy promised under the covenant, and have a time of tremendous prosperity after restoration from the exile.

This is in line with Isaiah 66 mentioning the Israelites being brought back by the nations after exile:

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.

It is speaking of the future blessings of the covenant if they follow Him when they are restored from exile.

Now some of these were experienced. Yet they were not always faithful. But the promises are not forgotten. God will fulfill them in an even better way at the final judgment and in the new heaven and new earth where there is no more death.

So instead of sinners living for a long time, and children not dying early, we have no sinners, but the home of righteousness, and no death.

Peter and John take up these promises and they are fulfilled in better ways.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
Also one question: SDAs says that we are "His new nation of Israel", so we need to keep the Sabbath because of it.

You might want to ask an SDA that question.

Rom 2 makes the case pretty well.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

fatherforgivethem said:
So, if we are "His new nation of Israel", why don't we need to also keep the circumcision, the specific festivals said on OT, etc, instead only keeping the Sabbath? Is it because Sabbath is the only of it mentioned on 10 commandments?

Indeed - it is not just SDAs - it is Bible scholarship in all major Christian denominations (yes even the Sunday keeping groups) that admit that the TEN (all TEN) are still valid for Christians and are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.

1. Heb 10:4-12 says that all the animal sacrifice and grain offering liturgy, all the ceremonies , ended at the cross.

2. There never was a command in OT or NT that said that gentiles must be circumcised to be saved.

3. No wonder we see gospel preaching "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews in the NT - and not one such reference for "week day 1".

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
Maybe because it is a subject of preference? If you want to keep the commandment, go ahead. But if you don't want, doesn't matter if you praise and worship during the week.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 - the "saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
1 John 5:2 "this IS the Love of God that we keep His Commandments"

Eph 6:1-2 God's commandments include the unit of TEN - having the 5th commandment "as the first commandment with a promise"

James 2 - to break one is to break them all.

No wonder the Bible scholarship in almost all major Christian denominations affirms this point.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
I would say Luke 16:16 tell us how this laws and prophets were until John. After Jesus died on cross and was resurrected, the "new laws" got established. And by "new laws" I mean the following verses with their sayings: Galatians 3:23-25 , Colossians 2:16 and maybe John 1:17 ?

In the NT - it is still a sin "to take God's name in van" (as well as all the other among the TEN) a fact that Bible scholars in all major denominations will admit.

Luke 16 does not say the command to not covet or to not take God's name in vain ended. Or was replaced.

in Matt 19 - before the cross - Jesus gives a list of OT commandments - in Romans 13 - Paul gives the same list. Neither of them say to ignore those commandments.

There is no text in the Bible saying that at the time of John or after John's death - it was no longer a sin to take God's name in vain.

I use this as a very simple example that Bible scholars on both sides admit to.

PaulCyp1 · Apr 23, 2021

The Sabbath is the Jewish day of worship. The whole purpose of Judaism was to be the people through whom the Messiah, the Savior of humanity, would come into the world. That event occurred 2,000 years ago, at which time great numbers of Jews recognized the Messiah and followed Him, becoming Christians. Some did not, which is why Judaism still exists today, still awaiting a Messiah Who has already come.
That Messiah clearly demonstrated that He was God, by constantly doing things only God could do. He, God, founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday because it rightly believed it was more fitting to celebrate worship on the day of Jesus Christ's glorious Resurrection, than on the day He lay dead in the tomb. Therefore, God Himself directed that change.
Your confusion is due to the fact that you are involved with one of the thousands of denominations of Protestantism, where the teaching of each denomination contradicts not only the teaching of original and true Christianity, but also the teaching of other Protestant denominations. No matter what you believe, it will contradict the teachings of other denominations. It was to avoid such confusion that Jesus prayed for us to His heavenly Father, saying "Father, that they all may be ONE, even as I and you Father are ONE".

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2021

PaulCyp1 said:
The Sabbath is the Jewish day of worship. .

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"The Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27 - as Christ points out.

No wonder all TEN of the TEN commandments are affirmed by Bible scholarship in all main Christian denominations - for example --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
Also one question: SDAs says that we are "His new nation of Israel", so we need to keep the Sabbath because of it. So, if we are "His new nation of Israel", why don't we need to also keep the circumcision, the specific festivals said on OT, etc, instead only keeping the Sabbath? Is it because Sabbath is the only of it mentioned on 10 commandments?

Good questions.

We are all considered spiritual descendants of Abraham:

Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

The promises referred to here are the promises to Abraham in the covenant God made with him, not those in Exodus 19 which was spelled out earlier. You may want to read those posts if you have not yet.

Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Paul is quoting from the book of Genesis. Abraham lived hundreds of years before the law was given to Moses. And Paul's point is that God made a promise to Abraham that was not dependent on the law. God promised all nations would be blessed through him. Through Abraham's seed all nations were blessed, as Christ descended through Abraham. In Christ there is no Jew or Greek, free or slave, etc. We are all, however, descendants of Abraham spiritually if we have the same faith of Abraham.

The gift of grace to the world through Christ was promised to Abraham, and the law given later does not change that.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

So the promises of the covenant with Abraham talked about Christ blessing the world. And they are not set aside by the covenant of the law later.

Now we also see in Ephesians that Gentile and Jew are brought near in Christ and are one new man.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Also we see in I Peter that the promises to Israel under the covenant at Sinai are now pronounced on a primarily gentile church:

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1Pe 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Previously the Gentiles were not a people of God, heirs to the promises of the covenant with Israel, but now they are.

And at the same time not all who are of the nationality of Israel are all Israel.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

In other words, it is not natural Israel after the flesh that is true Israel, but those who have the faith of Abraham in the promise given to Abraham.

So yes, we are included in the promises and the new covenant with true Israel. Just like the old covenant at Sinai, the new covenant is also made with Israel. But that includes all of true Israel who are faithful to God, and the Gentiles are included in those promises. The new covenant itself is from Jeremiah, in the old testament, so this is predicted:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

And that is why even if you hold that the Sabbath was given only to Israel, it would not immediately rule out Christians keeping the Sabbath.

However, as we covered in Acts 15 Gentile believers in Christ were not required to keep the sign associated with the previous covenant, such as physical circumcision, the sign of the covenant with Abraham. The question is whether they were required to keep the Sabbath.

They were also stated to not be required to keep the law of Moses.

Because there are so many texts to look at, and so many factors to consider I am trying to go through some of both sides on these various texts for you to think through.

Some think the Sabbath is obligatory. Some think it is not. And some thing it is a matter of choice, not to be judged.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
That argument would wipe out the New Covenant for all Christians today.

Bob, I am not interested in a theological deathmatch with you in this thread. I addressed that point now in my other post. But my main goal is to lay out some of the evidence on both sides on the major texts so that the poster has somewhere to start.

There are a lot of texts, and a lot of issues. Feel free to post any critiques, but I won't be answering soon, if at all.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
Maybe because it is a subject of preference? If you want to keep the commandment, go ahead. But if you don't want, doesn't matter if you praise and worship during the week.

That is how some take Romans 14, and Colossians 2. We will review some of the details of those as well.

I would say Luke 16:16 tell us how this laws and prophets were until John. After Jesus died on cross and was resurrected, the "new laws" got established. And by "new laws" I mean the following verses with their sayings: Galatians 3:23-25 , Colossians 2:16 and maybe John 1:17 ?

It was not totally new law, but the law written on the heart.

It is a reference to the old covenant promises for Israel to do all the Lord said. But then they didn't do it. The new covenant does not depend just on the people's promises, but depends on the Lord's action in writing the law in the heart and mind.

And yet, in Acts 15 Gentiles are included in the church, but not keeping the law of Moses.

Is it because Sabbath is the only of it mentioned on 10 commandments?

Some do see the 10 commandments as different than the rest of the law. Certainly God spoke them. Although if you read in Ex. 20 the people asked the Lord not to speak anymore after He gave them because they were scared.

But the ten commandments were also included in the covenant document, the tablets of the testimony, as a symbol of the covenant.

So they were set apart in that regard. And some think since the sabbath is in the ten commandments that it should be kept, even if other parts of the law of Moses was not.

Others see the inclusion of the ten commandments in the covenant document with Israel as a sign, per Exodus 31 of their special relationship to God, and a reminder that He is their ruler. The Deuteronomy 5 version of the commandment likewise relates to their deliverance from Egypt as a people. So even though the ten commandments were set apart, they do not see that as indicating that the sabbath is thereby a moral commandment, such as do not kill or do not steal. But that it was a special appointed time as a sign with Israel, just as circumcision was a physical sign of the covenant with Abraham.

Or to put it another way, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not kill are both clearly moral commands that would apply to everyone.

Israel being given the Sabbath as a sign that God sanctifies them, a memorial of creation and liberation from Egypt, with attendant sacrifices is not necessarily obviously a moral commandment for all people.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

Ok, that was a lot to digest. Take whatever time you need looking over all the posts. And then we can start looking at some of the NT texts such as Romans 14, Colossians 2, etc. They are actually not as simple as they first appear either and both sides have some points to make.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

Come on folks. The guy has been a Christian for five months, and is discouraged over this difficult decision. He doesn't have a lot of background. And it is a complicated subject.

He requested the following:

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.

Can we put away the usual copy-paste Sabbatarian/non-Sabbatarian conflict scripts long enough to just go over some of the texts involved and point out thoughts on both sides without sounding like we are cage fighters instead of Christians?

Polarized debate and conflict are not a healthy way to formulate a proper understanding of the Scriptures. Let him prayerfully consider, ask the Lord to guide him, and see what others point out without the bitterness.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
I'm a new Christian. There is 5 months or something since I started 'truly' following Jesus and God, obeying Him, learning, etc. Everything is going well, I'm learning so much. But now, looks like everything is running out of my control, I don't know what to do or to follow anymore, if I should do X or no, if I should follow Y or no.
Only one thing remains clear to me: I believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible.

There is many things right now I don't know what to follow or do. But in this thread, I wanna focus in just one of them: the Sabbath / the 4th commandment. It is making me desperate, overthink over and over and get worried so often.

What should I do?

I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good. But I also read the Bible arguments from people that do not follow the Sabbath and they also look really good.
Since both really look good, I thought that the Bible is contradicting itself, but I truly believe in the Bible, I just don't know what to follow.

Arguments from SDA:
1- The 4th commandment that God gave to Moses
2- Matthew 17:3 - I don't know exactly if this is an argument, but I saw some using it.
3- Mark 7:6-13
4- Luke 16:31
5- Deuteronomy 8:11

Arguments that don't think Christians need to follow Sabbath:
1- Romans 14:5,6
2- Galatians 5:2-8
3- Galatians 4:9-11
4- Colossians 2:14-17

I am personally more inclined to the non-Sabbath verses, because they look more solid and direct on what message/meaning they are trying to get across and it is also aiming for Christians that are not Jewish, but the SDA arguments are also good.

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.
And don't use "if your conscience says to..." arguments, they are so shallow, and this is a subject that is directed connected to God and Jesus and defines if you go to hell or no, because even if you do every other thing correctly, if God's Truth is that no matter who you are you should follow Sabbath, then I would say it is a condemning subject.

Do you love Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

Cis.jd · Apr 23, 2021

fatherforgivethem said:
I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good.

Sure, but you also have to consider the time line of their Bible arguments. The SDA started at 1863, so their Bible arguments never existed before that year.

When you want to worship is all up to you. We traditionally do it on sunday because it just in homage with Christ's resurrection. IMO, don't worry about religious rules, christianity is all about life transformation.

Stay away from church that are too doctrinated. You want a church that has community that are not "high and mighty", they are a pain to be around.. some huge churches are kinda shady to me sometimes.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Come on folks. The guy has been a Christian for five months, and is discouraged over this difficult decision. He doesn't have a lot of background. And it is a complicated subject.

He requested the following:

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.

Can we put away the usual copy-paste Sabbatarian/non-Sabbatarian conflict scripts long enough to just go over some of the texts involved and point out thoughts on both sides without sounding like we are cage fighters instead of Christians?

I’m not sure who you are referring to? Considering you have posted the majority of these posts. I have to say I think it’s unfair to think you are objective to scripture on the Sabbath considering you have openly stated you no longer believe in God’s Sabbath or the 4th commandment. Yes, many people leave churches and many people join churches, this happens in every denomination. Despite that, the SDA still is growing and has over 20 million members. I agree we shouldn’t act like cage fighters and the amount of anti-Adventist threads means you know you’re doing something right. Who wants the Truth not to get out? There is only one Truth and God’s Truth is His covenant that He personally wrote with His own hand and asked us all to REMEMBER His holy day that was stored along with all His moral laws in the most holy of holy in the Sanctuary. God’s way is in the Sanctuary.

Psalms 77:13 Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary;
Who is so great a God as our God?

What is in the Sanctuary? Everything represented in the Sanctuary is sacred. What is stored in the most holy of holy in the sanctuary? God’s TEN Commandments that He personally wrote on stone that includes the 4th commandment which is His holy day. Exodus 20:8-11

It’s almost Sabbath where I am at so Happy Sabbath to all! God bless!

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

imge said:
I’m not sure who you are referring to? Considering you have posted the majority of these posts.

I am referring to all the usual jabs and such when making points.

I have to say I think it’s unfair to think you are objective to scripture on the Sabbath considering you have openly stated you no longer believe in God’s Sabbath or the 4th commandment.

Actually I said I have been on both sides of the issue and was going to review it by looking at every text.

But in any case, everyone is free to make points, so you can raise issues I don't.

Yes, many people leave churches and many people join churches, this happens in every denomination. Despite that, the SDA still is growing and has over 20 million members. I agree we shouldn’t act like cage fighters and the amount of anti-Adventist threads means you know you’re doing something right. Who wants the Truth not to get out? There is only one Truth and God’s Truth is His covenant that He personally wrote with His own hand and asked us all to REMEMBER His holy day that was stored along with all His moral laws in the most holy of holy in the Sanctuary. God’s way is in the Sanctuary.

Psalms 77:13 Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary;
Who is so great a God as our God?

What is in the Sanctuary? Everything represented in the Sanctuary is sacred. What is stored in the most holy of holy in the sanctuary? God’s TEN Commandments that He personally wrote on stone that includes the 4th commandment which is His holy day. Exodus 20:8-11

It’s almost Sabbath where I am at so Happy Sabbath to all! God bless!

I am suggesting we try to lay out evidence on both sides. Of course in the various other threads we have a familiarity with the issues, and come at it from different sides, and there will be vigorous debate.

But how can he debate what he has no understanding of yet?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
Come on folks. The guy has been a Christian for five months, and is discouraged over this difficult decision. He doesn't have a lot of background. And it is a complicated subject.

Amazing post yet you spam the thread with a multitude of one sided very long posts and say to the OP who has been a Christian for 5 months read and digest? How does this provide open discussion on both views through the scriptures?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 23, 2021

tall73 said:
I am suggesting we try to lay out evidence on both sides. Of course in the various other threads we have a familiarity with the issues, and come at it from different sides, and there will be vigorous debate.

And yet you spam the thread with a one sided view and say to the OP who has been a christian for 5 months this is it, read and digest?

About Sabbath

Junior Member

He will never leave you nor forsake you.

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads