Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
You try kicking the can down the road to the new Jerusalem but that river is flowing into the dead sea Zech 14 Eze 47 and we all know there is no sea in the new creation.

Silly you. The living water in Zechariah 14 is the HOLY SPIRIT, not literal H20. It will go forth to the former sea and hinder sea? They are not even physical seas! Do you even know what these sea represents don't you? :p

The Valley of Acacias is in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]thim which is geographically right before the dead sea so now you have three witnesses all telling you this is a literal event within a specific geographical timeframe and in line with a prophetic sequence.

Say someone without spiritual discernments. Like the blind Jews of Old who are expecting a literal kingdom, literal throne, building, literal rivers, etc. etc. Yeah...

the 3rd temple is now a very relevent hot topic and this is great evidence that the futurist view is holding. It is lined up with Hosea 3 after many days without a sacrifice. the man of sin revealed in the temple.

Good luck with your flawed doctrine. Stop reading too much Jerusalem Post.


Isaiah 61 the rest of the chapter is the day of vengeance and if you apply this to 70 AD you have the wrong side wiped out. The promise in Luke 1 is literal and does indeed play out.

LOL. In Isaiah 61, do you even know what is the day of vengeance in relationship to the acceptable year of the Lord? Who is the bridegroom decketh HIMSELF with ornaments, and Bride adorneth HERSELF with her jewels? Whose soul who is joyful when given garments of salvation? Does this apply to the Jews or national Israel only in the Middle East? You need to see something bigger than a plot of dirt in the Middle East! Open your eyes, only the Grace of God can allow you to.
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
It will be Christians. Israelites and Gentiles who will make offerings in the new Temple, which will be dedicated to God. Ezekiel 40 to 46

False.

Jesus did make the sacrifice for our sins, but sin continues to occur, even in the best of people. Knowingly or inadvertently. As Ezekiel 45:20 tells us.

False.

Jesus Christ did make the sacrifice for HIS people. Not just the Jewish Elect of the Old Testament. The sins of all of HIS PEOPLE. All Elect from Old and New Testament. He did NOT die for everyone in the world.

Dan 9:24
(24)
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mat 1:21

(21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luk 1:77
(77)
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Heb 2:17
(17)
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That there WILL again be sacrifices in a new Temple is proved by how the Anti-Christ stops them. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31

You got the wrong temple. You got the wrong sacrifice. You got wrong "he" in Daniel 9:27. He is not antichrist, but Jesus, your Messiah the Prince, according to context. By doing this, He will use Satan to accomplish his purpose to judge his unfaithful congregation - those professed people within her who came against the covenant, in Daniel 11:31-33.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you even know what these sea represents don't you? :p

Assuming they represent something, thus are not meaning in the literal sense, do you even know what they represent? Kind of hard to tell when you are asking questions like that of others, expecting others to know what they represent, while at the same you don't even bother telling us what they are supposed to represent and why they are supposed to represent what you think they are supposed to represent. Actually though, you might be doing some of us a favor by not telling us what they are supposed to represent, since it would likely be making obvious nonsense out of the text rather than good sense out of it instead.

For example, you indicated the living water in Zechariah 14 is the HOLY SPIRIT. Let's see if that makes sense of the text, or if it makes nonsense of the text.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that the Holy Spirit shall go out from Jerusalem; half of the Holy Spirit toward the former sea, and half of Holy Spirit toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.


And that makes sense of the text exactly how??? Since when does the Holy Spirit involve 2 halves? Don't even bother trying to answer any of this. I don't even want to know. Engaging in obvious nonsense like this is a complete waste of time IMO. Nothing that you are going to say will ever convince me that you are understanding Zechariah 14:8 correctly, when you are already proposing what you are above.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It will be Christians, Israelites and Gentiles who will make offerings in the new Temple, which will be dedicated to God. Ezekiel 40 to 46, Micah 4:1-2, 2 Thessalonians 2:4
People here who deny this truth, for whatever reason, simply ignore much Bible prophecy. They think they know the Mind of God, a very pretentious belief.
Jesus did make the sacrifice for our sins, but sin continues to occur, even in the best of people. Knowingly or inadvertently. As Ezekiel 45:20 tells us.

The basic problem with this issue; the new Temple and the worship in it, is a failure to understand our role as Christians in the end times.

Where will we be? In the holy Land; Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 31, Romans 9:24-26, +

What will we do? We will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

That there WILL again be sacrifices in a new Temple is proved by how the Anti-Christ stops them. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31

This is a major division between Premil and Amils. Amils believe the old covenant arrangement has ben totally and eternally abolished through the sacrifice of Calvary. Premils promote the full restoration of the old futile arrangement.

You need to move from the OT into the NT. Hebrews 10:18 censures your expectation, explicitly saying: there is no more offering for sin.” Nothing could be clearer.

Premil says there remains more sacrifices for sins, Hebrews 10:26 says, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” Nothing could be clearer.

Premil builds its premise on arbitrary interpretations of select Old Testament passages, most of which either have an Old Testament realization or intra-Advent fulfilment. I don't see any warrant to resurrect sacrifices that the New Testament plainly declares are old, unsatisfactory and abolished. These sacrifices only served as a shadow until the reality come. The final sacrifice for sin has been made. So, why remotely introduce others?

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."

Is Calvary not enough?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) sacrifice?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) covering?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) doorway into the presence of God?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Assuming they represent something, thus are not meaning in the literal sense, do you even know what they represent? Kind of hard to tell when you are asking questions like that of others, expecting others to know what they represent, while at the same you don't even bother telling us what they are supposed to represent and why they are supposed to represent what you think they are supposed to represent. Actually though, you might be doing some of us a favor by not telling us what they are supposed to represent, since it would likely be making obvious nonsense out of the text rather than good sense out of it instead.

For example, you indicated the living water in Zechariah 14 is the HOLY SPIRIT. Let's see if that makes sense of the text, or if it makes nonsense of the text.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that the Holy Spirit shall go out from Jerusalem; half of the Holy Spirit toward the former sea, and half of Holy Spirit toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.


And that makes sense of the text exactly how??? Since when does the Holy Spirit involve 2 halves? Don't even bother trying to answer any of this. I don't even want to know. Engaging in obvious nonsense like this is a complete waste of time IMO. Nothing that you are going to say will ever convince me that you are understanding Zechariah 14:8 correctly, when you are already proposing what you are above.

Your doctrine will not allow you to see the spiritual truth being conveyed to this OT audience in symbolic form.

What is the sea or waters symbolic of in Scripture?

In biblical symbology, the sea is used to represent peoples, nations and tongues that cover the whole earth as the sea covers the earth.

Isaiah 17:12-13 explains: “Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off.”

Similarly, in Isaiah 60:5 we learn: the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.”

These two statements in Isaiah 60:5 are simply repeating the same truth, one enlarging upon the other. This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling the exact same thing, only in different terms.

The text is looking forward to the new covenant period when salvation would go out to all nations. In this text, the nations of the world are likened unto the abundance of the sea and is said that they shall be converted unto thee.”

Isaiah 57:20 tells us that the wicked are like the troubled sea.” Jude describes the “ungodly” as raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame.”

James 1:6 says of the unregenerate: “he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”

Jude verse 4 likens “ungodly men” to “the raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame.”

Revelation 17:1 & 15: “Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

In the light of these plain references, it seems reasonable to identify “the sea,” which the beast rises out of in this symbolic passage in Revelation 13:1, with the wicked from throughout the nations of the earth.

Isaiah 27:1 also interestingly predicts, “For, behold, LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”

The whole context of this reading revolves around the Lord coming to punish the wicked inhabitants of the earth. This event also sees the slaying of Satan – who is located “in the sea.” Contextually, and in keeping with other similar passages, this could be interpreted to be among the wicked.

There seems to be a picture developing!!! The wicked nations / peoples / kingdoms are where Satan holds his tight control. They are rough iniquitous waters.

Like Satan, the beast was placed under definite restraint at the cross and chained within the spiritual domain of the abyss. Notwithstanding, John saw him “ascend out of the bottomless pit” in Revelation 17:8.

The greatest support is found in Revelation itself. The sea or waters are actually identified as symbolic in Revelation 17:1 & 15. It confirms the figurative import of the same, saying, “Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

This is clear, concise and unambiguous. We are within our rights to consider this imagery throughout this highly symbolic book.

This religious prostitute that holds sway over the deluded is described as sitting on waters, which in turn is interpreted for us as “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

The place where these four great kingdoms emanate from could then similarly be viewed as among the wicked. In Revelation 13:1 John sees the beast “rise up out of the sea,” later in the chapter, in Revelation 13:11 16, he sees another beast – the false prophet – “coming up out of the earth.”

Zechariah 14

Zechariah 14:6-9 states, in keeping with the theme of the previous chapters, saying, And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

Luke 23:44-46 records, it was about the sixth hour (midday), and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour (3pm). And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

Whilst there was natural and spiritual darkness over Jerusalem when Christ was crucified, this all changed in the evening. With the renting of the veil the light broke through. Natural and spiritual light did indeed shine forth and has been graciously ever since. Christ is the “light of the world” (John 8:12, 9:5). Through His death He became an everlasting light to the Gentiles (Isaiah 42:6, 60:20).

The living water that flowed out from Christ at the cross secured the redemption of the saints of all time, whether in the Old Testament (the former sea) or in the New Testament (the hinder sea). The Bible says, in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, “all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation ... For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Zechariah 14:8 is referring to the time when redemption was finally and eternally secured for the redeemed. It is speaking of the eternal salvation that sprang forth from the cross. We must remember, the elect in the Old Testament were always looking forward to the cross, whereas, we today in the New Testament are looking back to the finished work.

Colossians 1:20-22 confirms: "having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight."

This is talking about the Lord's first advent and the peace He brought to Jerusalem. The inhabitants that entered the New Jerusalem by faith experienced the peace of God. In the kingdom of God there are no wars, destruction and death - just eternal life. Thus the statement: “And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.”

The Hebrew word "former" illustrating the Jews being the old or first of the sea, and the word "hinder" being those who come after or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters go out to all the world, Jew and Gentile, and this seems also to be illustrated in the context of verse following.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Christian Gedge

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,214
1,361
Waikato
Visit site
✟227,010.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is Calvary not enough?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) sacrifice?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) covering?

Is Calvary not an eternal (unending) doorway into the presence of God?

Bears repeating. Any return to old covenant sacrifices in just plain wrong!
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Bears repeating. Any return to old covenant sacrifices in just plain wrong!
Are these prophesies 'plain wrong'?
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favor to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the new Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.

The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. What will happen during the Millennium isn’t told to us, although there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6
But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Brian Mcnamee
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
How can you say that? That is plainly wrong. The millennium is populated with billions of wicked as the sand of sea who oppose the people of God and side with Satan.

This correlates with our age and proves we are in that era now.
Except how are people free from death living today? That we even have an Adversary refutes the argument. How can Satan be bound and still be: 1 Peter 5:8-9

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.


We are not in the age where Satan is bound. We are given the power to overcome even while Satan is deceiving the whole world. When was Satan even revealed to the world as the deciever? No one accepts Satan is even real, much less bound in a pit somewhere. First of all Satan has to be revealed, so the world knows they have been decieved.

"that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

When was the world exposed to Satan and the whole world watched Satan be bound in a pit?

If theology symbolizes all of reality without any practical application, it is only in your all's minds. It can not be applicable for life at all.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Since the first Advent, Satan is shown to be a conquered foe.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.
Except the world does not know this and is still decieved. Talking about it does not prove a fact. There has been no point in time for the last 2500 years where the world has been free of Satan's deception. Before Satan is bound, the world has to have the deception removed. Billions have followed Satan since Eve started the trend. Not one point in history has that stopped. Satan cannot be loosed until the world stops being decieved, and Satan is then bound and the world knows it happened. I need Scripture where the world is no longer decieved for instance Revelation 20:4 just after Satan is bound and the whole world sees it happen.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I believe the onus is on you to show that the beast can somehow do what it does without the aid of the dragon. Or that the dragon has no need for the beast in order to do what he does. I feel that scripture like Revelation 13:4 strongly supports my claim about their relationship. What scripture do you have to counter my claim?
How can they be separated now per your claim? The world has not even seen them together in the last 5991 years.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Oh, you speak for God? He told you this Himself?

Was Satan not also an angel? Why would that verse not include him?

Where does Matthew 25:31-32 say that Jesus is on the earth? It doesn't say that there just as there is no mention of Him being on earth anywhere in Revelation 20.
I have read God's Word.

How was Satan bound in eternal darkness for thousands of years, yet roam the earth throughout biblical history?



"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

It says "come". Either Jesus is on earth and comes to heaven, or in heaven and comes to earth? Which is it?

Do the nations travel to heaven to stand before the throne? Where in these verses does it say heaven and earth dissappear?


You all compare Scripture and prove your point with out all the words present. Yet deny many words. I am not comparing this to the GWT, because I have no need to. Since there is no need, why do I need this to reference 1000 years? Jesus does not say He returns in 1991 years either. Did Jesus already come back? Can you prove it? This passage does not deal with any time, so cannot be used to rule out 1991 years or the 1000 years after that.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
According to this verse the judgment clearly does not take place on earth or in heaven. It could be the new earth. Just because the new earth is not mentioned until Rev 21:1 does not mean what is described in Rev 20:11-15 can't take place there. But, the fact is, scripture doesn't tell us exactly where it takes place. So, to say that it undeniably takes place in any certain place, like the earth, is ridiculous.
Ok, it does not say 1000 years. Yet in a hypocritical interpretation you claim it says heaven and earth pass away?

Matthew 24 says,

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

The context is not about the Second Coming. He is comparing heaven and earth passing with this generation not passing until all be fulfilled.

You have heaven and earth passing away, before this generation passes away. So this cannot be the throne God is seated on. This is a throne that Christ is seated on in Jerusalem. You cannot disregard all other OT Scriptures to refute a chapter in Revelation you do not agree with. We already see that God's throne is seen at the 6th Seal separate from the Lamb's. Most refuse to see this as the Second Coming any way. God's throne already exist and the earth is the base (footstool). We can not see it because we are spiritually blind. We can not see the throne in Matthew 25, because it is not set up yet. Heaven and earth cannot pass away, because this generation has not passed away, and is still on the earth. All things have to be fulfilled, including the 1000 year reign on the throne that is not even set up yet.

At the end of the 1000 years, the throne of God will be all that is left because the footstool, earth, and the heavens do pass away. The point about the 6th Seal, is that spiritual blindness is done away with. Satan's deception is done away with. Heaven is done away with, except Paradise, and we are not told the specifics of how that works. All this does happen at the 6th Seal, but the earth remains. Even Peter says:

"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

No mention of the earth at all, but yet still waiting for the NHNE.

When the earth is mentioned it does not dissappear:


"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,"

Heaven passes, because Satan's virtual universe no longer exist.

"the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Also what? Does not pass, it is changed to remove Satan's deception. Yet what is destroyed is "the works therein". All of Satan's technology. Yet Peter claims later, we are still waiting and looking for the NHNE. Peter did not give the 1000 year period for waiting, because that was not revealed to Peter. If we are still looking for them, they have not happened yet, at the Second Coming. All of Satan's deception is gone, most assuredly.

Even then Satan may get 42 months, to defend himself, and many will still follow Him instead of God on the throne.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have read God's Word.
We all have. That alone qualifies you to act as if you speak for God?

How was Satan bound in eternal darkness for thousands of years, yet roam the earth throughout biblical history?
The binding of the angels is figurative language. Once again, you have failed to differentiate between literal and figurative text.

Do you think all the angels except Satan have been literally bound since they fell? How can you explain the descriptions of the activity of demons in scripture then? They were clearly not literally bound and unable to do anything at all, so it should be obvious that the description of their binding is figurative. Though they are able to roam about, their fate is already sealed. They will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day and they can't do anything about it. They are figuratively bound in chains that have them reserved for that fate.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

It says "come". Either Jesus is on earth and comes to heaven, or in heaven and comes to earth? Which is it?
He comes from heaven and we will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). It simply doesn't tell us where He goes from there. Why do you act as if the judgment described in Matt 25:31-46 has to take place on earth when we have a description of the judgment in Rev 20:11-15 that takes place somewhere besides heaven or earth (it says heaven and earth flee from His presence)? Revelation 20:11-15 proves that a time of judgment doesn't need to take place on the earth or in heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Does it really need to specifically mention humans being given to the burning flame in order to know that is what occurs there? Of course not.
Does Revelation 20:4 need to specifically mention on earth in order to know that is where it occurs? Of course not. It is the result of the battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is Jesus Christ on earth. Armageddon is not some spiritual battle in the hearts of humans. Jesus does not symbolically come into our hearts, defeat Satan and raise people from the dead in our hearts.

The ancient of days on the throne started back in the 5th chapter. There was a book that could not be opened. Only the Lamb was found worthy. As it was being unsealed, events happened on earth. The 6th Seal reveals the ancient of days on the throne to the whole earth, when heaven dissolves and is rolled up like a scroll. One more Seal opened and that book was opened. That is the first book opened then, and it is not called the GWT then. Only much later when reality disappears does John just see it as a Great White Throne. It is revealed in entirety. It is the only thing in existence, until the NHNE are created around humanity. Even Paradise changes around the church, and is now called the New Jerusalem.


After the Seals, we have Christ on earth with angels and Trumpet sounds. The final harvest is on the earth. The separation of sheep and goats happens on the earth. Then and only then does Satan get 42 months on the earth, after the harvest is complete. The son of man according to both Matthew 24 and 25 is coming to earth, and setting up His glorious throne. It is not set up yet. It is not about physically dead people in sheol. It is about the generations living on earth right now about ready to be judged by the ancient of days sitting on the throne. It is about the Lamb sitting on a throne in Jerusalem.

More than likely after splitting the mount of Olives in half. The battle of Armageddon is 60 miles north of Jerusalem and not even the same event as the Second Coming when the throne is set up per Matthew 25. The Lamb is coming on a throne before Satan's 42 months. Christ is coming on a horse at Armageddon. Revelation 20:4 has even more thrones (of the church). Part of Paradise must be seen?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi when God delivered Israel from Egypt He instituted the passover feast. When Jesus brought in the New Covenant He instituted communion. So when Jesus is established as king and priest after the 2nd coming He will explain the nature of the sacrifice and purpose of it. More than likely it is much like communion and some sort of memorial even if it is called a sin offering.
I'm sorry, but I find your explanation to be ridiculous. It's called a sin offering, but it's not really a sin offering? Come on. You expect me to buy that? No chance. Jesus put an end to animal sacrifices and sin offerings with His once for all sacrifice. Scripture makes that abundantly clear. So, there is no basis whatsoever to think that animal sacrifices and sin offerings would ever be reinstated.

When I read Luke one the promise is Jesus will deliver Israel from their enemies and from then on they worship without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. You see a spiritual change and no more persecution. In the 1st century persecution did not cease but increased. There is a lot of misunderstanding about the kingdom. In my view God is always king over all and when he created man he gave man dominion over the earth. Man lost that dominion in the fall and that is when the ruler of this age took over. Satan could offer all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus because they were his and he noted he could give them to whom he wished. Now when the beast arises he will accept that offer and indeed have power over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months.

When he is deposed the rightousness that springs forth over the earth is a night and day difference. As in Zech 14 it says they will say in that day the LORD is one. This is the deliverance promised in Luke 1 when Jesus takes the throne of Davd. It is Jezreel in Hosea where not my people are called sons of the living God. This is Armageddon which is exactly the same place as Jezreel.

Look up Isaiah 61 and see what is happening in Zion in the day of vengeance of our God Israel is saved. This is what happens in Dan 7 Zech 14 Joel and on and on.

If the kingdom is now than the LORD let Hitler, Moa, Stalin and on and rise up on his watch. I think this is preposterous. The elements of a spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel do not void or annul the prophetic word which will come to pass.
Is that more preposterious than thinking there will be a future kingdom of peace for a thousand years on earth only to result in a vast number of people rebelling against Christ (Rev 20:7-9)?
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Does Revelation 20:4 need to specifically mention on earth in order to know that is where it occurs? Of course not. It is the result of the battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is Jesus Christ on earth. Armageddon is not some spiritual battle in the hearts of humans. Jesus does not symbolically come into our hearts, defeat Satan and raise people from the dead in our hearts.

This is the Premil justification on every facet of the doctrine. It is an argument from silence. You acknowledge that the Op is correct.

Give me a passage that states the judgment is definitely on the millennial earth?

All I am hearing is opinion. You need to start quoting actual Scripture. Everything is implied or inferred in your arguments. That does not cut it with Amils.

When multiple NT Scripture is presented that forbids your position you just dismiss it, deferring to your faulty opinion of Revelation 20. The whole of Scripture is interpreted in the light of this this one figurative passage. Do you not see the danger of that?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You place the pole so low you could force anything into the text here. Your argument is totally based upon silence. That is Premil in a nutshell. There is absolutely no mention of your sin-cursed future millennium. That is because it is unbiblical.

Where is any mention of your supposed future millennium?

Where is any mention of Christ reigning over the wicked in the age to come?

Absolutely nowhere. The reality is: you are so sold on Premil you see it everywhere it doesn't exist.
Amil place it even lower and do call the Lord's Day, that should be set apart and holy, as current sin infested wickedness.
 
Upvote 0