Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

sovereigngrace said:

Stop avoiding the above evidence and stop derailing this thread.

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Seriously, how am I avoiding the evidence and derailing the thread? What planet do you live on? The evidence I have disproves Amil, not helps prove it instead. No wonder you don't want to deal with it. I'm going to post the following since I already bothered typing it up, and let others decide who it is that is avoiding the evidence, and that if this equals that I m derailing the thread regardles I am staying on topic.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is meaning something that takes place once the 2nd coming happens, and if verse 12 is also meaning something that takes place once the 2nd coming happens, how can any of that possibly be meaning Revelation 20:11-15? How can someone's life be prolonged for a period of time during that judging and sentencing event? Not only that, before that judgment even happens, both satan and the beast have already been cast into the LOF, thus not even present at the great white throne judgment other than they are already being tormented in the same LOF where many humans will be cast into.

In Daniel 7:9-11, there are no humans also being given to the burning flame at the time. In Revelation 19 there are no humans being cast into the LOF during when the beast and false prophet are being cast into it. Nor is satan even being cast into it at the time. If any of these things were so, and that John saw these things happen in those same visions, what reason would he have for neglecting to mention, that when he saw the beast and fp get cast into the LOF, he also saw satan and humans getting cast into the LOF during that same event?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Not a single mention of any humans nor even satan, also being given to the burning flame at the time.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Not a single mention of any humans nor even satan, also being cast into the LOF at the time.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Not a single mention of any humans nor even the beast and fp, also being cast into the LOF at the time. The beast and fp have already been cast into it earlier, and not that they are being cast into it when satan is cast into it.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Not a single mention of satan nor even the beast and fp, also being cast into the LOF at the time. satan, the beast, and fp, they have already been cast into it earlier, and not that they are being cast into it when humans are being cast into it. Revelation 19 and 20 alone proves there are multiple judgments involved that happen at different times. Maybe it doesn't prove it to Amils, but it proves it to some of the rest of us, though.

All of this means that if I am correct about any or all of the above, how can this possibly mean Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on the earth? Where would it locate Him if not the earth, assuming I am correcvt about what I submitted above?

DavidPT said:

Seriously, how am I avoiding the evidence and derailing the thread? What planet do you live on? The evidence I have disproves Amil, not helps prove it instead. No wonder you don't want to deal with it. I'm going to post the following since I already bothered typing it up, and let others decide who it is that is avoiding the evidence, and that if this equals that I m derailing the thread regardles I am staying on topic.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is meaning something that takes place once the 2nd coming happens, and if verse 12 is also meaning something that takes place once the 2nd coming happens, how can any of that possibly be meaning Revelation 20:11-15? How can someone's life be prolonged for a period of time during that judging and sentencing event? Not only that, before that judgment even happens, both satan and the beast have already been cast into the LOF, thus not even present at the great white throne judgment other than they are already being tormented in the same LOF where many humans will be cast into.

In Daniel 7:9-11, there are no humans also being given to the burning flame at the time. In Revelation 19 there are no humans being cast into the LOF during when the beast and false prophet are being cast into it. Nor is satan even being cast into it at the time. If any of these things were so, and that John saw these things happen in those same visions, what reason would he have for neglecting to mention, that when he saw the beast and fp get cast into the LOF, he also saw satan and humans getting cast into the LOF during that same event?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Not a single mention of any humans nor even satan, also being given to the burning flame at the time.

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It says "the judgment was set, and the books were opened", but no one is judged at that time except for the beast? Why are the books opened if only the beast is judged at that time? Does it really need to specifically mention humans being given to the burning flame in order to know that is what occurs there? Of course not. It's clearly implied because of the books being opened. That clearly correlates with what we see here:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How can you try to say that Daniel 7:9-11 is not the same event as Revelation 20:11-15 when they so obviously are the same? Clearly, when the books are opened, judgment of humans follows that. We need to allow scripture to interpret scripture here.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Not a single mention of any humans nor even satan, also being cast into the LOF at the time.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Not a single mention of any humans nor even the beast and fp, also being cast into the LOF at the time. The beast and fp have already been cast into it earlier, and not that they are being cast into it when satan is cast into it.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Not a single mention of satan nor even the beast and fp, also being cast into the LOF at the time. satan, the beast, and fp, they have already been cast into it earlier, and not that they are being cast into it when humans are being cast into it. Revelation 19 and 20 alone proves there are multiple judgments involved that happen at different times. Maybe it doesn't prove it to Amils, but it proves it to some of the rest of us, though.

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All of what you're saying here is based on the ASSUMPTION that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Your entire doctrine hinges on that.

The fact that humans are not mentioned in Revelation 19:20 but are in Revelation 20:11-15 does not prove anything in relation to the timing of those passages. Why do you act as if it does?

Surely, you know that two passages in scripture can be speaking of the same event without containing all of the same details, right? Using the kind of logic you're using here regarding the passages from Rev 19 and 20, we'd have to conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17, Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are speaking of 3 different events (a 2nd, 3rd and 4th coming of Christ?) because there are details in each passage that aren't found in the other two passages. Is that really the kind of logic we should use to interpret scripture? Yet, what is exactly what you're doing as it relates to Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10-15.

All of this means that if I am correct about any or all of the above, how can this possibly mean Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on the earth? Where would it locate Him if not the earth, assuming I am correcvt about what I submitted above?

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I agree that if you were correct about what you were saying above that you could conclude that Jesus will be on the earth, but I don't believe you are correct on anything you said there.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you really think it makes sense that Christ would make His amazing once for all sacrifice in order to make an end of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 10) only to have animal sacrifices brought back again when He returns?

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Many prophesies prove that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated in the new Temple of the end times.
We do not know the mind of God, he wanted sacrifices before and He does again, Ezekiel 20:40-41, Ezekiel 45:13-25, Jeremiah 33:11-18, and Daniel 9:27 proves there will be Temple sacrifices, as the Anti-Christ stops them.

Jesus did make Atonement of our sins, if we accept Him. That truth doesn't preclude any further sacrifices and offerings to God.

As for the silly notion that Jesus doesn't Return to the earth, that idea just shows a sad lack of understanding, of Bible knowledge and a false agenda for the end times.

keras said:

Many prophesies prove that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated in the new Temple of the end times.
We do not know the mind of God, he wanted sacrifices before and He does again, Ezekiel 20:40-41, Ezekiel 45:13-25, Jeremiah 33:11-18, and Daniel 9:27 proves there will be Temple sacrifices, as the Anti-Christ stops them.

Jesus did make Atonement of our sins, if we accept Him. That truth doesn't preclude any further sacrifices and offerings to God

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The only thing being proven here is your ignorance concerning proper understanding of Old Testament prophecies and towards what Christ did on the cross for us and how insulting it is to think that animal sacrifices could possibly be reinstated after all the work He did to put an end to them once and for all.

You clearly have no understanding of passages like this:

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

sovereigngrace said:

For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. This is repeatedly advanced as a core fundamental of that theory. But when you dig a little bit deeper and press Premils, it is clear that this theory cannot be found in Revelation 20 - the only text they have that mentions a thousand years. In fact, nowhere in Scripture teaches that Christ will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years in what is in reality a re-run of this current corrupt age.

The Premil new earth is a contradictory mix of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror.

This is clearly an extra-biblical Premil innovation. This is testimony to how bereft this doctrine is of biblical support.

Premils avoid the basic question: where in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus on earth?

Revelation 20 actually takes us back to the first resurrection - where Jesus conquered, sin, death Hades and Satan. It shows the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles. When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then the kingdom of darkness was bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Just before the second coming Satan gets a little season to wreck havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.

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As you may recall, unto them that look for Him shall He appear a second time. This very Spiritual Truth has occurred since his resurrection. Consider that he will rule in the hearts of men.

Heb.9

1. [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

sovereigngrace said:

This current corrupt earth is removed upon Christ’s return! But what replaces it in Premil? Another corrupt earth.

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Yeah, it is because in Premil doctrine, Satan will be loosened at the end of the physical millennial kingdom after 1,000 literal years where he will deceive people to revoult against Christ AGAIN. That does not make biblical sense at all!

Whilst Premils try to portray it as all sweetness and light it is in fact a re-run of our day, with more sin, more death, more corruption, more injustice, more darkness, more unrighteousness, more war and terror, more rapes, more tears, more funerals, more thefts, more heartache, more betrayals, more bondage. The new world/age you promote is more of the same.

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Indeed. Premil's doctrine is not a biblical doctrine.

keras said:

Many prophesies prove that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated in the new Temple of the end times.
We do not know the mind of God, he wanted sacrifices before and He does again, Ezekiel 20:40-41, Ezekiel 45:13-25, Jeremiah 33:11-18, and Daniel 9:27 proves there will be Temple sacrifices, as the Anti-Christ stops them.

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Sorry, that would be BIBLICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, because as a consequence of this position, we would have to look for the very literal re-establishment of sacrifices and sin offerings, which would imply denial that Christ had already come as the sin offering. That is WHY we do NOT offer sacrifices today. Because Christ FULFILLED that ceremonial law, and it is passed away.

Now let take a look at Ezekiel 45 for example.

Eze 45:22
(22) And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

So if this was all to be fulfilled in the future LITERALLY, then we would see this re-establishment of sin offerings? That is not only unchristian, it "IS" anti-Christ! The sin offering cannot take place again for believers, as Christ fulfilled this once and for all... for ALL OF HIS PEOPLE! Period. You simply cannot have a Gospel of Christ, which actually re-establishes the old ceremonial sacrificial law. It is antithetical to God's divine law. You need to study Hebrews carefully:

Hebrews 7:27-28

• "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
• For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."

Hebrews 9:12

• "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

The law was a tutor, the teacher that illustrated the divine nature of faith. The fact is, there cannot be a literal sacrifice of animals anymore in the future, since they prefigured Christ. The "TRUE" has already come and fulfilled the "SHADOW" or skia that prefigured it. When Christ offered up Himself as the ultimate sacrifice in fulfillment of prophecy and law, no other blood sacrifice unto God can be Biblically legitimate.

Hebrews 9:25-26

• "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
• For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

The Levitical sacrifices could not please God (Hebrews 10:8], they only served as the figure of the "true" or "real" salvation in Christ, which was to come after. They just shall live by faith, not by keeping sacrificial laws.

Matthew 3:17

• "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Namely, the sacrifice of Christ Himself is what would really be the will of God, and would be pleasing to God.

Hebrews 10:9-10

• "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
• By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

When God says "first" here, He refers to the old ceremonial laws and the physical animal sacrifices and offerings of the Old Covenant!! He took them away that they have no more practical significance to His people. He illustrates that they are no more to be observed as they have no value in representing the coming of Christ. He takes away the FIRST that he may establish the second! In other words, the two stand in contrast with each other. And so your flawed speculations that the Jews will need to re-establishment of the first today is completely against the Word of God.

And no Daniel 9:27 has NOTHING to do with physical Jewish animal sacrifices you hope to be re-established upon temple Mount in Israel today. Not going to happen!

In fact, the only reason anyone would speculate differently would be if they didn't understand how sacrifice and offering cease in the middle of the week. Many people believe this refers to the 'literal' sacrifice of lambs in the literal temple, and so they are confused by a New Covenant week, with sacrifice ceasing, after the cross. This has to do with the saraifice needed for salvation in the New Testament as Christ, being our high priest, was busy sealing His people with His Blood, Revelation 7:1-4. Once all Elect has been secured, the sacrifice and the offering CEASED. By whom? Christ himself! In other words, there is no more salvaiton left in these churches once all Elect are secured, then the power of the Holy People are scattered.

TribulationSigns said:

Sorry, that would be BIBLICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, because as a consequence of this position, we would have to look for the very literal re-establishment of sacrifices and sin offerings, which would imply denial that Christ had already come as the sin offering. That is WHY we do NOT offer sacrifices today. Because Christ FULFILLED that ceremonial law, and it is passed away.

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The Jews don't think so though.

Spiritual Jew said:

Since you see Zechariah 14 as having a future fulfillment at the second coming of Christ then that means you believe animal sacrifices will be reinstated at that time. What would be the purpose of these animal sacrifices? Please show the scripture which supports your answer to that question.

Do you really think it makes sense that Christ would make His amazing once for all sacrifice in order to make an end of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 10) only to have animal sacrifices brought back again when He returns?

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Hi when God delivered Israel from Egypt He instituted the passover feast. When Jesus brought in the New Covenant He instituted communion. So when Jesus is established as king and priest after the 2nd coming He will explain the nature of the sacrifice and purpose of it. More than likely it is much like communion and some sort of memorial even if it is called a sin offering.

When I read Luke one the promise is Jesus will deliver Israel from their enemies and from then on they worship without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. You see a spiritual change and no more persecution. In the 1st century persecution did not cease but increased. There is a lot of misunderstanding about the kingdom. In my view God is always king over all and when he created man he gave man dominion over the earth. Man lost that dominion in the fall and that is when the ruler of this age took over. Satan could offer all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus because they were his and he noted he could give them to whom he wished. Now when the beast arises he will accept that offer and indeed have power over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months.

When he is deposed the rightousness that springs forth over the earth is a night and day difference. As in Zech 14 it says they will say in that day the LORD is one. This is the deliverance promised in Luke 1 when Jesus takes the throne of Davd. It is Jezreel in Hosea where not my people are called sons of the living God. This is Armageddon which is exactly the same place as Jezreel.

Look up Isaiah 61 and see what is happening in Zion in the day of vengeance of our God Israel is saved. This is what happens in Dan 7 Zech 14 Joel and on and on.

If the kingdom is now than the LORD let Hitler, Moa, Stalin and on and rise up on his watch. I think this is preposterous. The elements of a spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel do not void or annul the prophetic word which will come to pass.

Hosea 3 is a good one.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now it has been almost 2000 years since Israel has had a sacrifice and after many days without it implies the return of. Now if 2 Thes 2 is future we can recognize that the return of the temple is to set the stage for the man of sin to be revealed in. Hosea shows that the day of Jezreel or Armageddon is when Israel is accepted. We see in zech 14 and Joel and Rev many being destroyed in that day. This is what Jer 31 is talking about. 38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”



Again the dead bodies fill the valley and the city now need rebuilding. From this time it will be holy and never thrown down again. My futurist view has no problem as all the voices in the choir are singing the same tune.

friend of said:

The Jews don't think so though.

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So are you going to allow your interpretation to be based on what the Jews in the Middle East think instead of what the Word of God says is true? That is the quesiton. I have given you Scripture. Where are yours?

TribulationSigns said:

So are you going to allow your interpretation to be based on what the Jews in the Middle East think instead of what the Word of God says is true? That is the quesiton. I have given you Scripture. Where are yours?

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You're saying it can't happen because God changed the covenant. The Jews do not abide by God's new covenant. That's why they do what they do in reinstating the old sacrifices. I'm not saying what they do is correct according to the new covenant. Not that hard to figure out.

Brian Mcnamee said:

So when Jesus is established as king and priest after the 2nd coming He will explain the nature of the sacrifice and purpose of it.

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Isn't that what you are doing? Saying I know Christ says He has already established His Kingdom, but what it says to me is that he has another for only the Jews of the flesh, and he'll establish that one when He returns to actually set up His kingdom (as if He hasn't already, as the Scribes and Pharisees and many Jews people believe). To also believe He will reign on this sin cursed earth 1000 literal years in the middle east? For what purpose? The Bible never said that! And so that is exactly what you are doing. You've violated your own rule, since what the Bible said is that Christ has established His Kingdom, He (and we) do reign in that kingdom RIGHT NOW:

Rev 1:9
(9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What you failed to understand is that His kingdom is not of this earth, the kingdom of God doesn't come in a way where you can observe it, His people have been set free from captivity, and on and on. These are things the Bible does say, and are fulfilled prophesies. It was Old Testament Israel that allowed Biblical interpretation to devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of what "the Bible says." And the Dispensationalists have followed in their footsteps almost exactly the same! As said the preacher, There is nothing new under the Sun.

Amos 9:14

• "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

Who are this captivity that the Lord talked about? This is NOT talking about the Middle East, it is spiritual restitution. It is the work of Christ that fulfills this prophecy of setting the captivity of Israel free, and of building the waste cities, and the restoration of god's people to the promised land. Like you, while some people are busy looking for "physical restorations" of geographical lands as fulfillment, god spoke of spiritual restitution of Israel, children of God returning spiritually to the promised land. Christ Himself declared these Scriptures fulfilled, in case you have not read the Scripture:

Luke 4:18

• "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

This scripture fulfills the prophesies, as clearly it is not something that is yet to be fulfilled in your pipe dream of national Israel. What Christ spoke of in Luke as being sent to do these things was the very same prophecy of Isaiah chapter 61. And it was fulfilled in the work of Christ. We all were in spiritual captivity until Christ freed us and has made us the children of Israel in Christ! It is not something yet to come, as many of your false theologians continue to teach.

friend of said:

You're saying it can't happen because God changed the covenant. The Jews do not abide by God's new covenant. That's why they do what they do in reinstating the old sacrifices. I'm not saying what they do is correct according to the new covenant. Not that hard to figure out.

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Answer my question. Is your doctrine based on what the Jews think or what the Word of God declares? Not that hard to figure out to answer, doesn't it?

TribulationSigns said:

Answer my question. Is your doctrine based on what the Jews think or what the Word of God declares? Not that hard to figure out to answer, doesn't it?

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The Jews will go back to temple sacrifices because they do not believe in Jesus as the all-sufficient sacrifice for sin.

Yeah.

sovereigngrace said:

Just before the second coming Satan gets a little season to wreck havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-21:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

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Why is there zero mention by you with that of Revelation 20:4 and the releasing of the beast? Can you not see that this same beast is mentioned in that verse, and that because of this same beast, some of the saints mentioned in this verse are martyred because they refused to worship it, refused to receive it's mark? How does that make good sense if the beast doesn't even ascend out of the pit until after the thousand years expire, according to some Amils, such as yourself?

sovereigngrace said:

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.

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Since you apparently find it preposterous that it can be like this, maybe you find it equally preposterous that satan and any of the angels that followed him at the time, could even rebel against the very one that created them, that they knew personally face to face before they rebelled. Initially they were all in good standing with God, yet, eventually they rebelled.

During the millennium it will basically be the same. Those that end up rebelling after the millennium will be in good standing with God during the millennium, since we don't see God destroying anyone during the millennium. That only happens after the millennium when satan manages to deceive them yet again, then they join satan's forces and launch one final rebellion that ends up as a failed attempt for them. It is not until after all of that, followed by the great white throne judgment, does the end come meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 occur. IOW, there is a gap between when He comes back to the earth and when the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 occurs. Just because some of you can't see the gap doesn't mean it's not there. Some of you can't even see a gap in the 70 weeks, yet it's there. So it shouldn't be a surprise to some of us that some of you are unable to see the gap I'm referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

TribulationSigns said:

Isn't that what you are doing? Saying I know Christ says He has already established His Kingdom, but what it says to me is that he has another for only the Jews of the flesh, and he'll establish that one when He returns to actually set up His kingdom (as if He hasn't already, as the Scribes and Pharisees and many Jews people believe). To also believe He will reign on this sin cursed earth 1000 literal years in the middle east? For what purpose? The Bible never said that! And so that is exactly what you are doing. You've violated your own rule, since what the Bible said is that Christ has established His Kingdom, He (and we) do reign in that kingdom RIGHT NOW:

Rev 1:9
(9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What you failed to understand is that His kingdom is not of this earth, the kingdom of God doesn't come in a way where you can observe it, His people have been set free from captivity, and on and on. These are things the Bible does say, and are fulfilled prophesies. It was Old Testament Israel that allowed Biblical interpretation to devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of what "the Bible says." And the Dispensationalists have followed in their footsteps almost exactly the same! As said the preacher, There is nothing new under the Sun.

Amos 9:14

• "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

Who are this captivity that the Lord talked about? This is NOT talking about the Middle East, it is spiritual restitution. It is the work of Christ that fulfills this prophecy of setting the captivity of Israel free, and of building the waste cities, and the restoration of god's people to the promised land. Like you, while some people are busy looking for "physical restorations" of geographical lands as fulfillment, god spoke of spiritual restitution of Israel, children of God returning spiritually to the promised land. Christ Himself declared these Scriptures fulfilled, in case you have not read the Scripture:

Luke 4:18

• "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

This scripture fulfills the prophesies, as clearly it is not something that is yet to be fulfilled in your pipe dream of national Israel. What Christ spoke of in Luke as being sent to do these things was the very same prophecy of Isaiah chapter 61. And it was fulfilled in the work of Christ. We all were in spiritual captivity until Christ freed us and has made us the children of Israel in Christ! It is not something yet to come, as many of your false theologians continue to teach.

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Hi if you look at Isaiah 61 Jesus only noted that a portion of the 1st sentence was fulfilled in that day. Your concept of the Jesus reigning is much different than mine. In psalm 29
10 The LORD sat enthroned at the Flood,
And the LORD sits as King forever.

So in this sense God has always been king but indeed Satan did become the ruler of this world and when it is over for Satan that is when the angels proclaim the transfer of the kingdom and it covers the earth and last forever. Dan 2 “And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Now this is what the millennium is all about. The other kingdoms are done as the Zech notes the LORD is king over all the earth. It is when Jerusalem is saved from invaders not destroyed. You try kicking the can down the road to the new Jerusalem but that river is flowing into the dead sea Zech 14 Eze 47 and we all know there is no sea in the new creation. Joel 3 And it will come to pass in that day
That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
The hills shall flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD
And water the Valley of Acacias.

The Valley of Acacias is in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]thim which is geographically right before the dead sea so now you have three witnesses all telling you this is a literal event within a specific geographical timeframe and in line with a prophetic sequence.


the 3rd temple is now a very relevent hot topic and this is great evidence that the futurist view is holding. It is lined up with Hosea 3 after many days without a sacrifice. the man of sin revealed in the temple.


Isaiah 61 the rest of the chapter is the day of vengeance and if you apply this to 70 AD you have the wrong side wiped out. The promise in Luke 1 is literal and does indeed play out.

friend of said:

The Jews will go back to temple sacrifices because they do not believe in Jesus as the all-sufficient sacrifice for sin.

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It will be Christians, Israelites and Gentiles who will make offerings in the new Temple, which will be dedicated to God. Ezekiel 40 to 46, Micah 4:1-2, 2 Thessalonians 2:4
People here who deny this truth, for whatever reason, simply ignore much Bible prophecy. They think they know the Mind of God, a very pretentious belief.
Jesus did make the sacrifice for our sins, but sin continues to occur, even in the best of people. Knowingly or inadvertently. As Ezekiel 45:20 tells us.

The basic problem with this issue; the new Temple and the worship in it, is a failure to understand our role as Christians in the end times.

Where will we be? In the holy Land; Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 31, Romans 9:24-26, +

What will we do? We will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

That there WILL again be sacrifices in a new Temple is proved by how the Anti-Christ stops them. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31