Maybe I didn't say that the chain of cause-and-effect governs all outcomes, following first cause.....
In reply, I have thought this through and responded.
Predestination is often taken too far, so that it negates free will, or man’s choices. The Predestination discussed here is related to God’s overarching plan, and makes suggestions of ways to understand this topic, within a framework of free will.
Traditional Calvinistic predestination assumes that every choice that man makes is dictated to by God. Both good and bad choices flow from God’s divine causation or will. It assumes that an elect or select few are ordained, prechosen for salvation and the rest are ordained to damnation by God’s choice. In such a scenario there is no such thing as free will we just seem to be making choices. This idea comes primarily from the following scriptures, which I wish to sink, in light of other scripture. Let’s start with the rather long passage.
Romans 9:11-22 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
If this passage is taken alone, we would easily side with Calvinistic thinking. We will further strengthen the position of classic predestination, using the following scripture.
Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ok, so we see God elected a plan for Jacob and Esau, choosing Jacob to fulfill the royal line to Christ, and cutting of Esau line from the divine purpose, they having not yet done any good or evil. We see God hardens some, and softens others. Pharoah was hardened, raised up, so God could show His power against him. The question is asked how does God find fault, if it was His will to begin with, for “who has resisted His will”. Ok, let’s all become Calvinists. Not before I put forward a case against it. We know from the Bible, that “God is love”, in general if you read the Bible you see a fair minded God, who asks us to “love one another”, to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; all in all God seems fair. The verses above seem far from fair, God hardens some, sending them to hell with no chance at all. That does not seem like, the God who says “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. But let’s go right back to the verse about God hardening Pharoah. What does it say?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Paul says inspired of the Holy Spirit, God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath”, what does he mean by that? Well,
2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish, but that all, and I stress all, should come to repentance. If we flow this thought through the passage in Romans. It could be stated this way: “what if God wanting to show His wrath against the vessels of dishonor, had previously endured their behavior, i.e. attempted to bring them to salvation, but they had resisted it, so God gave them over to a plan that displayed His wrath” This fits with
Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
What happened in the above scripture? God gave evidence to man, evidence of Him. But some chose to not glorify God, so He gave them over to a darkened heart. This fits with the long suffering passage, and backs up the idea that darkness of heart come with rejection of God’s evidences.
So yes God does have a plan for each of us, He foreknew, those who would be created, so in that sense He predestined us to salvation. But those who are vessels of wrath, God also planned a negative outcome for them, but only after his long suffering waited for them to repent, and they consistently refused. The thought that God willed both good and bad entirely cannot be true, for if He did that, nothing would take God by surprise. But we see in:
Genisis 6:6-7 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
What did that just say, God saw how man responded to Him, and he was sorry He had made man? Yes God wished He did not create man. So God did not know how man would respond to Him. This now leans us in the direction of free will, for God not to know an outcome, there must be a free will element to man. So how does this fit with God’s foreknowledge? Let’s say you have a dice, and roll it. It has 6 possible outcomes. If you roll it again the next time, it has the same six outcomes. If you record each outcome, maybe 5 first, then a 3, then a 2. Let’s say we wanted to record all possible outcomes that end in a 6 being rolled on the fourth try. It could be 1, 4, 3, 6 or it could be 2, 5, 1, 6. We would find there are many combinations but they all end in a 6. Let’s say 6 is our end game, it matters not what happens in between the first roll, and the last, as long as our last roll is a 6. Let’s say 6 represents the end of creation when Jesus returns. It matters not what happens in between as long as Christ returned. We can look at the numbers in between as free will choices, the freedom to have any number of outcomes does not affect our end game, as long as we force the last number to be a 6. I believe that God has set end game points in every person’s life, a point of decision, an important event, a good event or story ordained by God. How we respond to these important events will determine the path for our life. I am a computer programmer by trade, and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible out comes in a simulation, or game, the computer can essentially know with in a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster, and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, simplifies computation. For God to know every person, every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God has done:
Act_17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
So let’s return to Genesis, where God repented of creating man. Yes He has a system of restricting choices, but He did not know the choices would lead to such a low point. So He wished He had not started the creation.
Let’s look at Acts, what is the point of God restricting choices? “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him”, God want’s us all to find Jesus. Yes, God has set end game moments, He has predetermined points of history that will never change, that are predestined. But there are inconsequential choices that occur in between. You may be destined to meet someone who needs Jesus in one day, or two. But God does not care how many coffees you have in between. Yes God knew you before you were created, He knows every thing that will happen, but we need to make choices that lead to good not bad outcomes.
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