Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

Spiritual Jew

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It doesn’t have one definition. But the context, starting all the way back in chapter 23, indicates he was talking about that generation. If you have a different definition of that word you’d like to plug in, let me know so that we can discuss it.
I already told you this more than once. I believe the word is talking about a type of people which were wicked and adulterous. I showed you before that "this generation" was even responsible for Abel's death (Matt 23:35), so how can it only refer to people living at that time?

Also, I pointed out that Jesus indicated when this generation would pass away in the very next verse (Matt 24:35). It would be when heaven and earth pass away.

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

You're not recognizing that Jesus told them when "this generation" would pass away. It will be when heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth will pass away when He comes and that is the same thing Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:3-13. If Jesus was only talking about things that would happen in 70 AD then what was the point of Him saying that heaven and earth would pass away?
 
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Hammster

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I already told you this more than once. I believe the word is talking about a type of people which were wicked and adulterous. I showed you before that "this generation" was even responsible for Abel's death (Matt 23:35), so how can it only refer to people living at that time?

Also, I pointed out that Jesus indicated when this generation would pass away in the very next verse (Matt 24:35). It would be when heaven and earth pass away.

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

You're not recognizing that Jesus told them when "this generation" would pass away. It will be when heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth will pass away when He comes and that is the same thing Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:3-13. If Jesus was only talking about things that would happen in 70 AD then what was the point of Him saying that heaven and earth would pass away?
He came in 70 AD in the same way He came in Isaiah 19.
 
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Timtofly

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I could ask you a similar question, if 2 people showed up today claiming to be the 2 witnesses would they be listened to? Do the scriptures reveal how relevant it was or will be concerning the number of people who listen to the 2 witnesses?

Agreed

If you are claiming that the 2 witnesses and the first beast in Revelation 13 are events that occur simultaneously at some future point then would you also conclude that the gates of hell will prevail against the church?
John indicates they are not defeated the same way as those in Revelation 13:7

"it was allowed to make war on God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation."

We have to go with how John sets up chapter 13. This authority only lasts 42 months. We find this in verse 5 and in chapter 12. In chapter 11, the two witnesses are introduced and in conjunction with 12 and 13. I do not see how it is a separate event. The trodding of the outer court can only be the same time. It is not 7 years. The 2 witnesses cause trouble, they do not seem to be a witness of salvation. They kill people. The church is not here to destroy life. They may encourage people to get their heads chopped off. That is the only salvation experience available. Of course the world will hate and reject them. The world does that to the church, but only because they hate God's Word, not because it is personal. The lives of these two witnesses are more personal. They cannot die, but those they come in contact with can die. Just the opposite of persecution in today's process of tribulation.

As for the gates of hell prevailing, is not Revelation 13, just that? Satan being handed over control of the vineyard, the church is in Paradise, and not even the Lamb and the 144k hang out on earth during this time.

3.5 years may seem short compared to 5990 years, but if Revelation 13 does happen, it may seem like an eternity for those present on earth. That it is only 42 months is too long, but God does seem to allow it. There is something about Daniel 9:27 and the confirmation of God's Covenant. Since the church is currently in charge, seems they dropped the ball which leads to the 42 months for Satan and the 1260 days for the 2 witnesses. Revelation 11:2-3 seem to go hand in hand. I do not see why this is not the same 42 months as chapters 12 and 13.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes, because the word saints <40> doesn’t always refer to the church or even believers.

Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.​

Look at Deuteronomy 33:1-3 for example, the blessing of Moses calls the children of Israel saints. Also Deuteronomy 14:2 gives a description that matches the definition of saints.

Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God, which includes principalities, powers, things present, nor things to come. When Daniel 7:25 says “they shall be given into his hand”, it can’t be referring to true believers else God himself forsakes believers. The more reasonable answer here is that God gave national Israel into the hand of the beast.


If the saints are referring to believers then it also must be Gods will that the saints are overcome. There is no power but of God. Since it was given unto the beast to make war and overcome the saints, this would have to be Gods will.


Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.​

So true believers will submit themselves to God (James 4:7) and allow themselves to be overcome in order to obey Gods will; else if they resist Gods will they are going to receive damnation (Romans 13:1-2). However Revelation chapters 2 and 3 have a statement to each of the 7 churches about overcoming.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.​

We are given the example to pray for Gods will to be done, so apparently if the beast is yet to come all believers should be praying that they will be overcome once the beast arrives. So if the word "saints" is referring to true believers then it would indeed appear that the gates of hell will prevail.
The Second Coming can only be at the 6th Seal. That is when the church is removed. Chapter 7 introduces us to the 144k. They alone can be the saints of Revelation 13:7. They are not the church the same as the church today is the church. They were sealed after the Second Coming. They are with the Lamb on earth after the Second Coming during the Trumpets and Thunders. Then in chapter 13 they leave. The 2 witnesses then "take over". The 144k are not killed. It just says defeated, meaning a withdrawal from earth until Revelation 14.
 
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grafted branch

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The Second Coming can only be at the 6th Seal. That is when the church is removed. Chapter 7 introduces us to the 144k. They alone can be the saints of Revelation 13:7. They are not the church the same as the church today is the church. They were sealed after the Second Coming. They are with the Lamb on earth after the Second Coming during the Trumpets and Thunders. Then in chapter 13 they leave. The 2 witnesses then "take over". The 144k are not killed. It just says defeated, meaning a withdrawal from earth until Revelation 14.
I’m not sure where you get the idea that the 144k are still to come.

Revelation 7:1 has the 4 angels holding the 4 winds of the earth that they shouldn’t blow on the earth, sea, or trees.

Revelation 7:2-3 another angel with the seal of God commands the 4 angels not to hurt the earth, sea, trees till we have sealed the servants of our God. The wind not blowing on the earth is what was hurting it. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind, this is the Gospel being allowed to be preached in all the world.

Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed, which is 144,000. The 144,000 are sealed prior to the event of Pentecost because they “were”, as in past tense, sealed.

Revelation 7:9 John now sees a great multitude that no man could number, of all nations, kindred, and tongues, standing before the Lamb. This is the result of the gospel being preached throughout the world.
 
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Timtofly

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If the remnant of her seed is not meaning the church but is meaning national Israel, who then is the woman meaning here? Both can't mean national Israel if one is seen flying into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent, and that the remnant remains behind in order to be confronted by the dragon head on.

This is one area that seems to indicate the church is still not about earth at all. The church being removed to Paradise has been ongoing since the Cross. The rapture is not an end days escape from earth. It is just the end of the church on the earth period. I think the nation of Israel has to flee twice. It is not about the church at all.
 
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Timtofly

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I’m not sure where you get the idea that the 144k are still to come.

Revelation 7:1 has the 4 angels holding the 4 winds of the earth that they shouldn’t blow on the earth, sea, or trees.

Revelation 7:2-3 another angel with the seal of God commands the 4 angels not to hurt the earth, sea, trees till we have sealed the servants of our God. The wind not blowing on the earth is what was hurting it. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind, this is the Gospel being allowed to be preached in all the world.

Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed, which is 144,000. The 144,000 are sealed prior to the event of Pentecost because they “were”, as in past tense, sealed.

Revelation 7:9 John now sees a great multitude that no man could number, of all nations, kindred, and tongues, standing before the Lamb. This is the result of the gospel being preached throughout the world.
Because Jesus only had 12 disciples the first time around. For the Second Coming, Jesus will have 144k disciples. Why would he need 144k in the first century? This time there are almost 8 billion people on earth. A much larger area to cover.
 
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grafted branch

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Because Jesus only had 12 disciples the first time around. For the Second Coming, Jesus will have 144k disciples. Why would he need 144k in the first century? This time there are almost 8 billion people on earth. A much larger area to cover.
What I meant was I’m not sure where you get the idea from the scriptures.

Can you provided the chapter and verse where the 144k are called disciples?
 
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Timtofly

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What I meant was I’m not sure where you get the idea from the scriptures.

Can you provided the chapter and verse where the 144k are called disciples?

"They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world. These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb; on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect."

Why else would Jesus need people to follow Him on earth during the final harvest at His Second Coming? It will be different this time around. Jesus covers more territory this time around, than just the middle east.
 
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grafted branch

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"They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world. These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb; on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect."

Why else would Jesus need people to follow Him on earth during the final harvest at His Second Coming? It will be different this time around. Jesus covers more territory this time around, than just the middle east.
The verses you are quoting show the events happening to the 144,000 as having already been fulfilled.

The 144,000 are the people that came out of the graves in Matthew 27:52-53. They meet up with Christ on mount Sion as seen in Revelation 14:1.

In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Thomas is able to touch Jesus, so Jesus would have ascended and returned sometime in between these verses. In Revelation 14:4 they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth, which was to ascend to the Father. Ephesians 4:8 is describing them ascending with Christ.

The 144,000 are also called the first fruits in Revelation 14:4 because they are the first to be redeemed from the earth. In Colossians 3:1 Christ is currently seated on the right hand of God. In Revelation 14:5 they are seen before the throne of God which happens before verse 6 where the everlasting gospel is preached to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

So again these verses confirm that the 144,000 are sealed prior to Pentecost. Do you know of any other verses that call the 144,000 disciples?
 
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Timtofly

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The verses you are quoting show the events happening to the 144,000 as having already been fulfilled.

The 144,000 are the people that came out of the graves in Matthew 27:52-53. They meet up with Christ on mount Sion as seen in Revelation 14:1.

In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Thomas is able to touch Jesus, so Jesus would have ascended and returned sometime in between these verses. In Revelation 14:4 they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth, which was to ascend to the Father. Ephesians 4:8 is describing them ascending with Christ.

The 144,000 are also called the first fruits in Revelation 14:4 because they are the first to be redeemed from the earth. In Colossians 3:1 Christ is currently seated on the right hand of God. In Revelation 14:5 they are seen before the throne of God which happens before verse 6 where the everlasting gospel is preached to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

So again these verses confirm that the 144,000 are sealed prior to Pentecost. Do you know of any other verses that call the 144,000 disciples?

You are mixing the 2 advents together. At the first coming Jesus had 12 disciples, the firstfruits of the church. At the Second Coming in Revelation 6 it is the end of the church. The 144k are sealed after the church is removed. Jesus is on earth for the second advent, and will have 144k disciples on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. These are the saints in Revelation 13 who are removed to Mt. Zion for 42 months who return at Armageddon. They go where Jesus goes during the Second Coming event, like the 12 disciples followed Jesus at the first coming event.

The 144k were written about over 40 years after the Cross about the Second Coming, not a history lesson of more disciples than the first 12. Jesus did not call disciples from every nation on earth the first time. The Second time they will come from every nation. They are not resurrected dead people. They are living people sealed by the angels. They do not die to get to Mt. Zion. Jesus is not going to die again, and they follow Jesus where He goes even from earth to Mt. Zion the same way Jesus got there.

Those people in Matthew 27 are those in Abraham's bosom. The whole of the OT congregation. Way more than 144k. These were not sealed by angels. They were dead people from before Noah's Flood to John the Baptist. Some people died prior to the Flood who were righteous. Probably not many though. Certainly Noah was in Abraham's bosom. Certainly more than 144k from Noah until John the Baptist believed God and were in Abraham's bosom waiting for the moment of the Cross, the last day resurrection. Hebrews 11 tells about them. They all were still looking for Paradise while waiting in Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom was not Paradise nor Mt. Zion. These were the firstfruits of Paradise, the church, the Temple of God, the second half of Revelation 7.


The first half, the 144k, of Revelation 7 is the firstfruits of those who reign on earth with Christ for 1000 years. They and billions of their offspring for over 1000 years, will live on in the New Earth after the 1000 years. The church still lives in Paradise, and the New Jerusalem when it comes down on the New Earth. Still the Temple of God and God's throne and alter.
 
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grafted branch

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You are mixing the 2 advents together.
If that is so, can you explain why Revelation 14:6 isn’t currently taking place? Isn’t the everlasting gospel being preached to every nation on earth now?
The 144k are sealed after the church is removed.
Can you give the chapter and verse to support this?
Jesus is on earth for the second advent, and will have 144k disciples on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders.
Can you give the chapter and verse to support this?


I don’t mind using some speculation to help understand the scriptures but your view seems to have layer upon layer of speculation, to the point that the interpretation has no support. You use statements such as “second coming”, “144,000”, and “the 12 disciples followed Jesus” but in order for me to make a serious examination of your view I need to know from the scriptures how they are associated with each other; not just a statement that they are associated.

For example you make the leap from the 12 disciples to 144,000 disciples with no other support. Is there any scripture that specifically calls the 144,000 disciples? Matthew 28:19 NIV Therefore go and make disciples of all nations. This happened in the first century; I could put forth the argument that all believers are disciples. Look at the definition of disciple <3101> a learner, i.e. pupil:-disciple.

I personally prefer an in depth conversation when it comes to examining someone else’s view. I can see the statements you’ve made but I can’t see how you are arriving at your conclusion that the 144,000 are going to be disciples.
 
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Timtofly

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If that is so, can you explain why Revelation 14:6 isn’t currently taking place? Isn’t the everlasting gospel being preached to every nation on earth now?

Can you give the chapter and verse to support this?

Can you give the chapter and verse to support this?


I don’t mind using some speculation to help understand the scriptures but your view seems to have layer upon layer of speculation, to the point that the interpretation has no support. You use statements such as “second coming”, “144,000”, and “the 12 disciples followed Jesus” but in order for me to make a serious examination of your view I need to know from the scriptures how they are associated with each other; not just a statement that they are associated.

For example you make the leap from the 12 disciples to 144,000 disciples with no other support. Is there any scripture that specifically calls the 144,000 disciples? Matthew 28:19 NIV Therefore go and make disciples of all nations. This happened in the first century; I could put forth the argument that all believers are disciples. Look at the definition of disciple <3101> a learner, i.e. pupil:-disciple.

I personally prefer an in depth conversation when it comes to examining someone else’s view. I can see the statements you’ve made but I can’t see how you are arriving at your conclusion that the 144,000 are going to be disciples.
Revelation 14:1-5

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

None of this defines a disciple of Christ?

"They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth."

This is not being a disciple?

Where are they sealed? On earth before death? In Heaven after death?

Revelation 7:1-4, after the 6th Seal and before the 7th Seal.

1 And after these things (the 6th Seal) I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Verse 3 points out the Trumpets are about to sound with great hurt. These 144k are going to be sealed preventing their bodies to get hurt. To me, that is receiving an incorruptible body, also one without a sin nature any more. Remember in chapter 14, they were redeemed from the earth, and: "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." This was because they were sealed and redeemed. They were not redeemed and sealed because they were already perfect.

So they were sealed on the earth, and since they were following the Lamb after being sealed, the Lamb had to be on the earth. No verse ever claims they follow the Lamb around mount Zion. That is where they ended up because they followed the Lamb from the earth to Mt. Zion.

Why does no one see God on the throne and Jesus Christ as being on the earth after the spiritual blindness is removed from every human on earth at the 6th Seal? The 6th Seal is the exact words Jesus gave on the mount of Olives in the OD, of when He would come to earth the second time. The literal Second Coming. And the stars come to earth like fig leaves. That is John's symbolic reference to the angels. And they bring the Trumpet of God with them. The angels are about to blow it and 6 other Trumpets to bring judgment.

The everlasting gospel is given by the angel because it reminds humans they have no excuse to reject God. Yet they do and will do so, because they love themselves more than they love God. Only after the 6th Seal will all the details be known and man's theology come up lacking. Most deny the chronological order and even some events any way. Many will still deny the truth, even with God and the Lamb present on earth.
 
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grafted branch

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None of this defines a disciple of Christ?

"They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth."

This is not being a disciple?
So here is the problem I see using the term disciples when describing the 144,000. During Jesus’s first coming event Satan entered Judas and Matthias was determined to be his replacement by drawing the lot. Will Satan enter 12,000 of the 144,000 and they will need to be replaced? Peter denied Jesus; will 12,000 of the 144,000 also deny Jesus?

Revelation 14:5 says they are without fault, so I would say the 144,000 are not like the 12 disciples.
Verse 3 points out the Trumpets are about to sound with great hurt. These 144k are going to be sealed preventing their bodies to get hurt.
I’m not sure what you mean here, but if you are associating the wind blowing with the blowing of the trumpets then why is the earth hurt when the wind doesn’t blow? Look at Revelation 7:1-4 again.

Revelation 7:1 the 4 angels are holding back the wind so it won’t blow on the earth. In this verse the angels are currently holding back the wind, it’s not blowing, the angels are not allowing the wind to blow.

Revelation 7:2 the angel ascending from the east speaks to the 4 angels that were given to hurt the earth. Again the 4 angels are hurting the earth and it was given to them to hurt the earth by not letting the wind blow.

Revelation 7:3 the angel from the east (from verse 2) says hurt not the earth till we have sealed the servants of God. I’m going to speculate here but I presume the 4 angels stop holding back the wind and the wind is now allowed to blow on the earth at this point.

Revelation 7:4 I heard the number of them that were sealed. The question here is when are the 144,000 sealed, while the earth is being hurt (no wind) or after the wind is allowed to blow.

Ezekiel 9 gives additional detail about when those in Jerusalem are marked. In Ezekiel 9:4 the men are marked when they sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof.

The conclusion I come up with is that the 144,000 were (past tense) sealed prior to the wind being allowed to blow. I interpret the wind to have blown at Pentecost. If they are sealed after the wind blows then the abominations and crying occur when the wind blows, which seems contrary to Revelation 7:1-3. What is your explanation or interpretation of what the wind is?
 
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Timtofly

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So here is the problem I see using the term disciples when describing the 144,000. During Jesus’s first coming event Satan entered Judas and Matthias was determined to be his replacement by drawing the lot. Will Satan enter 12,000 of the 144,000 and they will need to be replaced? Peter denied Jesus; will 12,000 of the 144,000 also deny Jesus?

Revelation 14:5 says they are without fault, so I would say the 144,000 are not like the 12 disciples.

I’m not sure what you mean here, but if you are associating the wind blowing with the blowing of the trumpets then why is the earth hurt when the wind doesn’t blow? Look at Revelation 7:1-4 again.

Revelation 7:1 the 4 angels are holding back the wind so it won’t blow on the earth. In this verse the angels are currently holding back the wind, it’s not blowing, the angels are not allowing the wind to blow.

Revelation 7:2 the angel ascending from the east speaks to the 4 angels that were given to hurt the earth. Again the 4 angels are hurting the earth and it was given to them to hurt the earth by not letting the wind blow.

Revelation 7:3 the angel from the east (from verse 2) says hurt not the earth till we have sealed the servants of God. I’m going to speculate here but I presume the 4 angels stop holding back the wind and the wind is now allowed to blow on the earth at this point.

Revelation 7:4 I heard the number of them that were sealed. The question here is when are the 144,000 sealed, while the earth is being hurt (no wind) or after the wind is allowed to blow.

Ezekiel 9 gives additional detail about when those in Jerusalem are marked. In Ezekiel 9:4 the men are marked when they sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof.

The conclusion I come up with is that the 144,000 were (past tense) sealed prior to the wind being allowed to blow. I interpret the wind to have blown at Pentecost. If they are sealed after the wind blows then the abominations and crying occur when the wind blows, which seems contrary to Revelation 7:1-3. What is your explanation or interpretation of what the wind is?
The 7 Trumpets are about to sound. You cannot rip Revelation 7 out of context and place it in another book of the Bible.

Today is a totally different world than 30AD. We are still to be disciples of Christ. When did that stop?
 
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