The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Lazarus Short

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If hell and damnation were not real, there was no need for him to die.
The whole meaning and purpose of salvation is predicated on damnation, on being saved from hell, which is why he so mercifully warned us of it, so many times.

Only fallen man would turn his merciful warnings about damnation, hell and judgment into malevolence.

Have you really forgotten what your Bible tells you - that Jesus (meaning "Savior") came to save us from our sins? Go back and read what John the Baptist said about Him in the Gospel of John 1:29. Most of Christianity has substituted being saved from Hell for being saved from our sins. I don't sell "fire insurance" and neither should you.

BTW, we are not warned about Hell, mercifully or not, except in bad translations.

BTW, I have dug down to the pagan roots of "Hell," and it's not a pretty picture.
 
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Clare73

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The ice age, bronze age, space age etc. That's what an age is.
And these "ages" were the common parlance of NT times?
They knew about the ice and bronze ages and used the term in the same way?
The millennial reign of Christ is described in Revelation 20. It's also known as
the thousand year golden age of the church.
That's someone's personal interpretation of prophecy, whose meaning is hidden, rather than clear (Numbers 12:8), found nowhere taught by the apostles, as well as being in disagreement with what the apostles did teach.

For according to Paul, the church age is now, it is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11),
it is not the next age to come. Christ is seated in the heavenlies reigning now (Ephesians 2:6), governing everything for the sake of the church (Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 5:23).
The church age is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2,
Hebrews 9:26).

That's NT authoritative teaching, not someone's personal interpretation of prophecy, deliberately given unclearly (in riddles), as God told Aaron and Miriam (Numbers 12:8).
The next age to come. And according to Paul, there are more ages to come.
According to Paul, the next age to come is eternity, and it is the final age because it never ends.
 
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Lazarus Short

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A more complete reading of Scripture reveals it is the second death, which Jesus was careful to make sure we understood correctly by teaching it in story form (parable) in Luke 16:19-31, where the rich man after his death abides in a place of conscious torment in the agony of fire. . .in a state of being, not in the oblivion of non-being.

Abraham's boson = Paradise. . .and that is exactly where I am going to spend eternity. . .with you, I hope!

ahem, my take on Lazarus & the rich man:

First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in Persia, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was “the last man standing,” or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the kingdom of Judah.


Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man’s table. This takes us back to Jesus’ brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus’ sores. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them – in fact, the name “Lazarus” in its Hebrew form, is very close to the name of Abraham’s servant Eliezer, who God refused as Abraham’s heir. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom indiscrimately, Lazarus dies and is brought to Abraham’s bosom.





Now as I’ve said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture than they had had before the Babylonian exile. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called “hell” in the KJV, but footnoted as “hades.” These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf – all that would have been easily understood by Jesus’ hearers.


OK, we’ve got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) is now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43). Do you see how He rejected the figurative fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.





Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the “good fig” Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split from Judaism. The rich man, and those he stands for, is not in such a good place. These “bad figs” have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah the rich man is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.



Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God’s favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” I won’t try to label any specific nation, but for the sake of convenience, let’s just say it is the “nation” of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today’s secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.



The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. This is another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man’s fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those few whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.



There it is, my view on the parable – a prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd, at least to me.
 
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Clare73

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Have you really forgotten what your Bible tells you - that Jesus (meaning "Savior") came to save us from our sins? Go back and read what John the Baptist said about Him in the Gospel of John 1:29.
Elaborated on by Jesus in "I came to die as a ransom for many."
Most of Christianity has substituted being saved from Hell for being saved from our sins.
They are one and the same, you can't separate them. The consequence of sin = hell.

The price of sin (law breaking) is the Law's curse to damnation (Galatians 3:10), under which we were all condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18), prior to the atoning death of Jesus for those who believe and trust in him and his saving work for the remission of their sin (by payment of its penalty) and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
I don't sell "fire insurance" and neither should you.
As well you shouldn't. . .you don't have the resources to save from the fire of Gehenna.
BTW, we are not warned about Hell, mercifully or not, except in bad translation,
We are warned about unquenchable fire, the second death, the lake of fire.
How many ways does it have to be said before we get it?
BTW, I have dug down to the pagan roots of "Hell," and it's not a pretty picture.
Now, try digging to the roots of lake of fire, second death or Gehenna. You might find it profitable.
 
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Clare73

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ahem, my take on Lazarus & the rich man:

First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in Persia, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was “the last man standing,” or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the kingdom of Judah.


Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man’s table. This takes us back to Jesus’ brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus’ sores. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them – in fact, the name “Lazarus” in its Hebrew form, is very close to the name of Abraham’s servant Eliezer, who God refused as Abraham’s heir. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom indiscrimately, Lazarus dies and is brought to Abraham’s bosom.

Now as I’ve said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture than they had had before the Babylonian exile. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called “hell” in the KJV, but footnoted as “hades.” These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf – all that would have been easily understood by Jesus’ hearers.

OK, we’ve got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) is now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43). Do you see how He rejected the figurative fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.

Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the “good fig” Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split from Judaism. The rich man, and those he stands for, is not in such a good place. These “bad figs” have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah the rich man is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.

Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God’s favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” I won’t try to label any specific nation, but for the sake of convenience, let’s just say it is the “nation” of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today’s secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.

The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. This is another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man’s fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those few whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.
There it is, my view on the parablea prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd, at least to me.
Pardon me, but. . .what is absurd here to me is your view which turns the parable into a prophecy,
omitting altogether the very wheel on which the parable turns--conscious torment in the agony of fire after death (which means immortality)--and
then, having eliminated the wheel on which the parable turns,
straight-facedly stands in the public square, loudly and unashamedly proclaiming,
"Literal fire based on this parable is just absurd!". . .mind numbing.

It's like cloud reading, you get points for how many different shapes you can imagine you see in them.

So ahem X 2. . .it is not a prophecy, it is a parable--they are different, and
it has everything to do with the lake of fire.
 
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Clare73

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Your Bible says the wages of sin are death...not hell. Hello?
And that is both the first death (physical), and for those whose sin is not forgiven through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, it is the second death (lake of fire).
 
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Ceallaigh

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And these "ages" were the common parlance of NT times?
They knew about the ice and bronze ages and used the term in the same way?
That's someone's personal interpretation of prophecy, whose meaning is hidden, rather than clear (Numbers 12:8), found nowhere taught by the apostles, as well as being in disagreement with what the apostles did teach.

For according to Paul, the church age is now, it is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11),
it is not the next age to come. Christ is seated in the heavenlies reigning now (Ephesians 2:6), governing everything for the sake of the church (Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 5:23).
The church age is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2,
Hebrews 9:26).

That's NT authoritative teaching, not someone's personal interpretation of prophecy, deliberately given unclearly (in riddles), as God told Aaron and Miriam (Numbers 12:8).
According to Paul, the next age to come is eternity, and it is the final age because it never ends.

The millennial reign of Christ on earth after He returns is mainstream theology, not one person's pet theory. Whereas you cobble verses together to present your own interpretation of things here. You don't seem to mind insisting that cryptic, figurative, hyperbolic, apocalyptic language along with parables are crystal clear when it suits you.

The NKJV reads as follows:

"The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
Revelation 20:4-6

Now you can disagree with the millennial reign of Christ theological view, but you can't very well claim it's someone's personal eisegesis.

"that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:7



 
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Lazarus Short

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Pardon me for saying so, but what is absurd to me is your view which turns the parable into a prophecy, omitting altogether the very wheel on which the parable turns--conscious torment in the agony of fire after death (which requires immortality), and then, having eliminated the torment in the agony of fire, claiming the parable has nothing to do with hell. . .amazing.

Fact: The Lake of Fire is not ID'd as Hell, not even by the KJV. I checked.

Fact: The concept and doctrine of the immortality of the soul comes to us from pagan Greek philosophy, not from the Bible. The Bible sez when you're dead, you're dead.

Fact: I stand by my interpretation, and at least mine has some basis in reality. I get weary of those who see the Devil everywhere and Hell in every verse involving fire. Did you know that the Devil/Satan is NOT the Price of Hell, or even Heck? We always see him operating on this Earth - He drags no one to Hell, and isn't that nice?
 
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Clare73

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The millennial reign of Christ on earth after He returns is mainstream theology,
Oh, precious. . .that is not mainstream, that's a fairly recent concoction.
not one person's pet theory. Whereas you cobble verses together to present your own interpretation of things here. You don't seem to mind insisting that cryptic, figurative, hyperbolic, apocalyptic language along with parables are crystal clear when it suits you.

The NKJV reads as follows:

"The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
Revelation 20:4-6
Now you can disagree with the millennial reign of Christ theological view, but
you can't very well claim it's someone's personal eisegesis.
That is precisely what it is, because prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, and I can give you an interpretation that is more in agreement with authoritative NT teaching.
 
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Ceallaigh

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A more complete reading of Scripture reveals it is the second death, which Jesus was careful to make sure we understood correctly by teaching it in story form (parable) in Luke 16:19-31, where the rich man after his death abides in a place of conscious torment in the agony of fire. . .in a state of being, not in the oblivion of non-being.

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14

That takes place after the millennial reign of Christ on earth described earlier in the chapter.

Abraham's boson = Paradise. . .and that is exactly where I am going to spend eternity. . .with you, I hope!

I'm expecting to to be reigning with Christ, not in Abraham's Bosom, which Christ emptied.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Revelation 20:6

The question is who will we be priests to and reign over for that thousand year age?
 
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Clare73

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Fact: The Lake of Fire is not ID'd as Hell, not even by the KJV. I checked.
So? . .a rose by any other name is still sweet.
Fact: The concept and doctrine of the immortality of the soul comes to us from pagan Greek philosophy, not from the Bible. The Bible sez when you're dead, you're dead.
I guess Jesus didn't get the memo, because his parables were always based on elements of reality, and the two guys were alive and conscious after their death.
So. . .who am I gonna' believe, Jesus or you?
Fact: I stand by my interpretation, and at least mine has some basis in reality. I get weary of those who see the Devil everywhere and Hell in every verse involving fire. Did you know that the Devil/Satan is NOT the Price of Hell, or even Heck? We always see him operating on this Earth - He drags no one to Hell, and isn't that nice?
Satan doesn't drag them there, God sends them there at the final judgment (Matthew 25:31-41), see v.41, 46.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Oh, precious. . .that is not mainstream, that's a fairly recent concoction.

Nope, various forms of chiliasm or millennialism have existed since the first centuries of the church.

That is precisely what it is, because prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, and I can give you an interpretation that is more in agreement with authoritative NT teaching.

That makes it a theology that has more than one view, like many theologies. Rather than being something someone made up fairly recently. Like you made up that it's a fairly recent concoction. Eusebius wrote about it in the 4th century.
 
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Clare73

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"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14
And who else was cast in with them?
That takes place after the millennial reign of Christ on earth described earlier in the chapter.

I'm expecting to to be reigning with Christ, not in Abraham's Bosom, which Christ emptied.
Paul says we are reigning with Christ now.
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall
reign with Him a thousand years."
Revelation 20:6
The question is who will we be priests to and reign over for that thousand year age?
1000 is a symbolic number, like 7, 12, 144, for fullness.
The 1000 years is symbolism for the whole church age, where:

the first resurrection is the rising from spiritual death to eternal life in the new birth,
over the born again, the second death (damnation) has no power,
we are priests now (1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 2:5), offering sacrifices of praise, and
we are reigning with Christ now (Ephesians 2:6).

That is interpreting prophecy according to authoritative apostolic teaching in those Scriptures.
 
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Clare73

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Nope, various forms of chiliasm or millennialism
have existed since the first centuries of the church.
Yes, heresy has been in the church from the beginning.
Time does not confer truth on them.
That makes it a theology that has more than one view,
But it doesn't keep it from being heresy.
like many theologies. Rather than being something someone made up fairly recently. Just like you made up that it's a fairly recent concoction. Eusebius wrote about it in the 4th century.
He also wrote about other heresies.
 
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Ceallaigh

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And who else was cast in with them?

Paul says we are reigning with Christ now.
1000 is a symbolic number, like 7, 12, 144, for fullness.
The 1000 years is symbolism for the whole church age, where:

the first resurrection is the rising from spiritual death to eternal life in the new birth,
over the born again, the second death (damnation) has no power,
we are priests now (1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 2:5),and
we are reigning with Christ now (Ephesians 2:6).

That is interpreting prophecy according to authoritative apostolic teaching in those Scriptures

You go back and forth quite a bit over what's symbolic or figurative and what's literal, even if it's cryptic, depending on the position you want to take.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Yes, heresy has been in the church from the beginning.
Time does not confer truth on them.

But it doesn't keep it from being heresy.
He also wrote about other heresies.

Most long held wide ranging theological views are called heresies by those who hold to opposing theological views.

You're obviously an amillennialist. But the most widely held view is premillennialism.
 
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You go back and forth quite a bit over what's symbolic or figurative and what's literal, even if it's cryptic, depending on the position you want to take.
Parables are figurative (based on elements of reality).
Prophecy involves much symbolism (which is not necessarily reality).
Teaching is literal.
 
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Parables are figurative (based on elements of reality).
Prophecy involves much symbolism (which is not necessarily reality).
Teaching is literal.

You seem to move those goal posts around as to which is which.
 
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Clare73

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Most long held wide ranging theological views are called heresies by those who hold to opposing theological views.
There was a church magisterium in those days, which ruled on heresy.
You're obviously an amillennialist. But the most widely held view is premillennialism.
Only recently.
 
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