JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

LoveGodsWord · Apr 21, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I think what you are saying is that it is important to keep certain ones of God's commandments. I think what the scriptures provided say is that it is important to keep all of God's commandments, or keep all of God's commandments in the same way.

No not saying that at all. I have only posted scripture from the new testament that specifically states that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin from Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 because Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20. This of course would include Gods' 4th commandment which according to the scriptures is one of Gods' 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11.

Leaf473 said:
My apologies for missing that! Yes, I think that breaking any one of God's commandments is sin.

That is ok Leaf. It is only a misunderstanding. So if you believe breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments is sin, do you keep God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures in Exodus 20:8-11?

No, it is not an excuse. However, those other laws would also give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed, would they not?

It depends what other laws you are referring to. According to James if we know that we should be doing something Gods' Word tells us to do and do not do it then it becomes sin to us. If we do not know any better in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word he calls us to believe and follow what His Word says (James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31).

Leaf473 said:
Do you have a list of which laws you believe are still relevant today? And if you do have such a list, is it something that you can post here?

As posted earlier Gods' 10 commandments are our duty of love to God and man. There is also God's dietary laws and other laws listed from the old testament that could be applicable to God's people today. Most however of the old covenant laws however are "shadow laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary service, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision and Feast days etc) fulfilled in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17. Gods 10 commandments however are the standard of good and evil; sin and righteousness according to the scriptures (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). So everyone of God's 10 commandments are relevant for day according to Paul, John and James as well as Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 as they are our duty of Love to God and our fellow man. Paul also expressing the same in Romans 13:8-10 and James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-4.

Leaf473 said:
I believe you were talking about how the Ten commandments are separated from the other laws. I agree with that. However, that is not the only separation in the law. There are other separations in the law.

What other separations are you talking about here. I have provided scriptures showing the separation of Gods' law (10 commandment) from the Mosiac laws written in the book of the law. Also discussed the shadow laws fulfilled in the new covenant promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. What other separations are there (scripture please)?

Leaf473 said:
We both agree that there are more than 10 laws in the Old testament that we are to keep today. But as far as I can tell, the separations described in the scriptures do not fall along the lines of what are often called moral laws or ceremonial laws.

Even the Jews classify their Torah into categories that include ceremonial laws (Jewish Encyclopedia). Many of the old covenant Mosaic laws for example are ceremonial laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary service, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision and Feast days etc)

Leaf473 said:
I disagree that we can divide the law into categories such as moral or ceremonial. And I disagree with the idea that we keep certain laws one way and other laws another way. But again, imo this will be easier to talk about when I know exactly which laws you believe are still applicable today.

You would have seen the Jewish classification for ceremonial laws linked in the previous section so we will not touch on that here. There are many divisions of law within the bible developed around scriptural contexts written within the bible itself. Other words the different laws within God’s Word are subject and topic specific in application. Some laws having moral implication of how to treat God and our fellow man, other laws can be specific to conditional direction for receiving God’s forgiveness for sin, while still others are laws for civil governance and still other laws may be for our health and hygiene or how to treat others and even animals. We will only touch on some of the biblical support for the moral, ceremonial laws for remission of sins, civil and health laws here as there is too many scriptures.

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR MORAL LAWS (duty of love towards God and man)

God’s law written and spoken by God on two tables of stone (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 20:1) Exodus 20:3; Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 20:7; Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 20:12; Exodus 20:13; Exodus 20:14; Exodus 20:15; Exodus 20:16; Exodus 20:17. Moral laws written and spoken by Moses in the book of the law or covenant (Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 30:19) Leviticus 19:32; Deuteronomy 10:20; Leviticus 19:16-18; Leviticus 19:1-37 (most of which are expounding on God’s 10 commandments; Exodus 23:5; Deuteronomy 22:4; Exodus 22:21; Deuteronomy 24:19-21; Deuteronomy 15:7-11; Deuteronomy 10:19; Exodus 22:20; Exodus 21:15-17; Deuteronomy 23:18; Exodus 21:10; Deuteronomy 22:19; Leviticus 18:1-30; Exodus 23:1-12; Leviticus 25:14; 37; etc etc…

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CEREMONIAL MOSES (laws for remission of sins, Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary laws and annual feast days)

Ceremonial laws in the bible (adjective meaning) are any laws that relate to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law. The noun means outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law. Hebrew definition is provided below has many meanings and it is context and application that determines the correct meaning in the scriptures...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Ceremonies H4941 משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

Of course there are many meanings in both the Hebrew and Greek language and it is the context and application that determines their usage as shown in reference to Numbers 9.

Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, you shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and ACCORDING TO THE CEREMONIES THEREOF, shall you keep it.

In the scriptures ceremonial laws are mostly seen in the laws for remission of sins where external rites (also meaning ceremony) where practiced in the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary laws of atonement for sin and all the offerings given for remission of sins, thank offerings etc, as well as the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 and these laws can also been seen in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc..

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CEREMONIAL LAWS

Leviticus 1:1-17; Leviticus 2:1-16; Leviticus 3:1-17; Leviticus 4:1-35; Leviticus 5:1-19; Leviticus 6:1-30; Leviticus 7:1-38; Deuteronomy 16:16; Leviticus 23:4-44; Exodus 23:14-18; Leviticus 16:1-34; Leviticus 18:1-16; Leviticus 21:1-24; Leviticus 22:1-33; Leviticus 24:1-23; Exodus 25:1-40; Exodus 29:1-46; Exodus 21:18-19; Exodus 22:15-29; Deuteronomy 22:29; Deuteronomy 25:2-3; Deuteronomy 22:26; Deuteronomy 32:38; Exodus 22:27; Leviticus 19:26-31; Deuteronomy 18:11; Numbers 18:1-32; Number 19:1-22; Numbers 28:1-31; Numbers 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 12:1-32 etc etc…

We can go on and on here looking at different subcategories of law…

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CIVIL LAWS OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL

Deuteronomy 16:18; Deuteronomy 1:17; Leviticus 25:14; Exodus 22:9-14; Deuteronomy 7:3; Numbers 5:30; Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Deuteronomy 25:5-9; Deuteronomy 14:22; Leviticus 25:37; Deuteronomy 23:20; Exodus 22:24; Deuteronomy 24:10-17; Leviticus 19:35; Deuteronomy 25:13-14; Leviticus 19:13; Deuteronomy 23:25-26; Exodus 21:2-8; Leviticus 25:39-53; Deuteronomy 15:13-14; Leviticus 25:46; Numbers 27:8-11; Exodus 21:33-36; Exodus 22:4-27; Exodus 23:1; Deuteronomy 24:16; Leviticus 25:23-29; Deuteronomy 19:14; Exodus 21:20; Leviticus 26:25; Leviticus 20:10-14; Deuteronomy 21:23; Numbers 35:25; Deuteronomy 19:3; Deuteronomy 16:1-22; Deuteronomy 17:1-20; Deuteronomy 19:1-21; Deuteronomy 20:1-20; Deuteronomy 21:1-23 etc etc...

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THE LAWS OF HEALTH AND HYGIENE

Leviticus 11:1-47; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Exodus 23:19; Genesis 32:33; Leviticus 7:23-26; Leviticus 17:13; Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 21:20; Leviticus 12:1-8; Leviticus 13:1-59; Leviticus 14:1-57; Leviticus 15:1-33; Deuteronomy 14:1-29 etc etc..

We can keep on going but as you can see there are different categories of law based on their application and use. So based on the scriptures and Hebrew word meanings as provided here there is overwhelming evidence from the bible and Jewish tradition and classification that supports this view. What evidence do you have to support your view that there is no classification or divisions of law when the bible and the Jews show that there is classifications of laws in the bible? If you have seriously researched this topic I do not think you would claim this so I hope this post might be a helpful start for you.

Hope this is helpful

Leaf473 · Apr 21, 2021

*******************
This is a long post written on a cell phone over a period of several hours. I ask several questions as I read through your post, but I realized as I came to the end that some of those questions were answered later in your post. And some questions maybe duplicated. But I don't have the energy to continue looking over it

The "bottom line" question is do you want me to use the categories you provide and the scripture references therein as your list? If so, which categories?

*************

LoveGodsWord said:
No not saying that at all. I have only posted scripture from the new testament that specifically states that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin from Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 because Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20.

I think at this point we both agree it is not just the 10 that give us knowledge of sin when broken and make us stand guilty of sin before God.

Do you have a list of what commandments, in addition to the 10, give us knowledge of sin when broken and make us stand guilty of sin before God?

I'm not asking for a list of categories, such as ceremonial and civil. I am asking about the specific commandments.

(However, please see below. Maybe you want me to use the various scripture references as your list?)

This of course would include Gods' 4th commandment which according to the scriptures is one of Gods' 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11.

I agree, and of course we want to keep and fulfill the fourth commandment in the same way that we keep and fulfill all the commandments, imo.

That is ok Leaf. It is only a misunderstanding. So if you believe breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments is sin, do you keep God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures in Exodus 20:8-11?

Yes, and fulfill it as well, as with all the commandments.

It depends what other laws you are referring to. According to James if we know that we should be doing something Gods' Word tells us to do and do not do it then it becomes sin to us. If we do not know any better in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word he calls us to believe and follow what His Word says (James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31).

I'm referring to the same "other laws" that you are referring to in the post below when you say, "and there are other laws".

I don't know specifically which ones you are referring to, that's why I think it would be really handy if you could post a list.

LoveGodsWord said:
...and there are other laws that are still applicable today.

As posted earlier Gods' 10 commandments are our duty of love to God and man. There is also God's dietary laws and other laws listed from the old testament that could be applicable to God's people today.

Could be applicable or are applicable? Does it vary from one person to the next?

Most however of the old covenant laws however are "shadow laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary service, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision and Feast days etc) fulfilled in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17. Gods 10 commandments however are the standard of good and evil; sin and righteousness according to the scriptures (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). So everyone of God's 10 commandments are relevant for day according to Paul, John and James as well as Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 as they are our duty of Love to God and our fellow man. Paul also expressing the same in Romans 13:8-10 and James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-4.

Now, when you say,
"Gods 10 commandments however are the standard of good and evil...", that gives me the impression that it's just the 10.

Should I understand that to mean Gods 10 commandments plus some other commandments are the standard of good and evil?

What other separations are you talking about here. I have provided scriptures showing the separation of Gods' law (10 commandment) from the Mosiac laws written in the book of the law. Also discussed the shadow laws fulfilled in the new covenant promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. What other separations are there (scripture please)?

Here is an example of a separation
Leviticus 27:34 These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Even the Jews classify their Torah into categories that include ceremonial laws (Jewish Encyclopedia). Many of the old covenant Mosaic laws for example are ceremonial laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary service, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision and Feast days etc)

Do you use the same categories as the Jews?

You would have seen the Jewish classification for ceremonial laws linked in the previous section so we will not touch on that here. There are many divisions of law within the bible developed around scriptural contexts written within the bible itself. Other words the different laws within God’s Word are subject and topic specific in application. Some laws having moral implication of how to treat God and our fellow man, other laws can be specific to conditional direction for receiving God’s forgiveness for sin, while still others are laws for civil governance and still other laws may be for our health and hygiene or how to treat others and even animals. We will only touch on some of the biblical support for the moral, ceremonial laws for remission of sins, civil and health laws here as there is too many scriptures.

Do all of the laws in these categories give knowledge of sin when broken? Are they all applicable today?

Or do only certain categories give knowledge of sin when broken, and only certain categories are applicable today?

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR MORAL LAWS (duty of love towards God and man)

God’s law written and spoken by God on two tables of stone (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 20:1) Exodus 20:3; Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 20:7; Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 20:12; Exodus 20:13; Exodus 20:14; Exodus 20:15; Exodus 20:16; Exodus 20:17. Moral laws written and spoken by Moses in the book of the law or covenant (Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 30:19) Leviticus 19:32; Deuteronomy 10:20; Leviticus 19:16-18; Leviticus 19:1-37 (most of which are expounding on God’s 10 commandments; Exodus 23:5; Deuteronomy 22:4; Exodus 22:21; Deuteronomy 24:19-21; Deuteronomy 15:7-11; Deuteronomy 10:19; Exodus 22:20; Exodus 21:15-17; Deuteronomy 23:18; Exodus 21:10; Deuteronomy 22:19; Leviticus 18:1-30; Exodus 23:1-12; Leviticus 25:14; 37; etc etc…

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CEREMONIAL MOSES (laws for remission of sins, Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary laws and annual feast days)

Ceremonial laws in the bible (adjective meaning) are any laws that relate to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law. The noun means outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law. Hebrew definition is provided below has many meanings and it is context and application that determines the correct meaning in the scriptures...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Ceremonies H4941 משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

Of course there are many meanings in both the Hebrew and Greek language and it is the context and application that determines their usage as shown in reference to Numbers 9.

Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, you shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and ACCORDING TO THE CEREMONIES THEREOF, shall you keep it.

In the scriptures ceremonial laws are mostly seen in the laws for remission of sins where external rites (also meaning ceremony) where practiced in the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary laws of atonement for sin and all the offerings given for remission of sins, thank offerings etc, as well as the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 and these laws can also been seen in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc..

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CEREMONIAL LAWS

Leviticus 1:1-17; Leviticus 2:1-16; Leviticus 3:1-17; Leviticus 4:1-35; Leviticus 5:1-19; Leviticus 6:1-30; Leviticus 7:1-38; Deuteronomy 16:16; Leviticus 23:4-44; Exodus 23:14-18; Leviticus 16:1-34; Leviticus 18:1-16; Leviticus 21:1-24; Leviticus 22:1-33; Leviticus 24:1-23; Exodus 25:1-40; Exodus 29:1-46; Exodus 21:18-19; Exodus 22:15-29; Deuteronomy 22:29; Deuteronomy 25:2-3; Deuteronomy 22:26; Deuteronomy 32:38; Exodus 22:27; Leviticus 19:26-31; Deuteronomy 18:11; Numbers 18:1-32; Number 19:1-22; Numbers 28:1-31; Numbers 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 12:1-32 etc etc…

We can go on and on here looking at different subcategories of law…

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CIVIL LAWS OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL

Deuteronomy 16:18; Deuteronomy 1:17; Leviticus 25:14; Exodus 22:9-14; Deuteronomy 7:3; Numbers 5:30; Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Deuteronomy 25:5-9; Deuteronomy 14:22; Leviticus 25:37; Deuteronomy 23:20; Exodus 22:24; Deuteronomy 24:10-17; Leviticus 19:35; Deuteronomy 25:13-14; Leviticus 19:13; Deuteronomy 23:25-26; Exodus 21:2-8; Leviticus 25:39-53; Deuteronomy 15:13-14; Leviticus 25:46; Numbers 27:8-11; Exodus 21:33-36; Exodus 22:4-27; Exodus 23:1; Deuteronomy 24:16; Leviticus 25:23-29; Deuteronomy 19:14; Exodus 21:20; Leviticus 26:25; Leviticus 20:10-14; Deuteronomy 21:23; Numbers 35:25; Deuteronomy 19:3; Deuteronomy 16:1-22; Deuteronomy 17:1-20; Deuteronomy 19:1-21; Deuteronomy 20:1-20; Deuteronomy 21:1-23 etc etc...

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THE LAWS OF HEALTH AND HYGIENE

Leviticus 11:1-47; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Exodus 23:19; Genesis 32:33; Leviticus 7:23-26; Leviticus 17:13; Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 21:20; Leviticus 12:1-8; Leviticus 13:1-59; Leviticus 14:1-57; Leviticus 15:1-33; Deuteronomy 14:1-29 etc etc..

We can keep on going but as you can see there are different categories of law based on their application and use. So based on the scriptures and Hebrew word meanings as provided here there is overwhelming evidence from the bible and Jewish tradition and classification that supports this view. What evidence do you have to support your view that there is no classification or divisions of law when the bible and the Jews show that there is classifications of laws in the bible?

Well, first let's make sure that I understand what you're saying, and then I'll tell you why the various categories are imo problematic.

If you have seriously researched this topic I do not think you would claim this so I hope this post might be a helpful start for you.

I believe I've always agreed that the laws can be categorized. Which categories are still applicable today, and which ones give knowledge of sin when broken, and do you have a list of those laws that are in those categories?

Hope this is helpful

Yes, it is helpful if you intend for me to use the scriptures under the various category headings as the list. I don't see a heading for moral laws. Shall I assume that every law that is not in one of the categories that you listed is a moral law? If so, would the scripture references regarding the moral laws be too numerous to list?

Which categories do you consider still applicable today? Which categories give us knowledge of sin when we break the laws in them?

Edit: I see the category for moral laws now

LoveGodsWord · Apr 21, 2021

Leaf473 said:
This is a long post written on a cell phone over a period of several hours. I ask several questions as I read through your post, but I realized as I came to the end that some of those questions were answered later in your post. And some questions maybe duplicated. But I don't have the energy to continue looking over it

Hello Leaf, I noticed you did not really address much from my last post or answer some of the questions I asked of you in post # 341 linked. So I hope you can revisit it as some point when you do not need to use a cell phone. I can understand that my last post was a long one and that you were only using a cell phone though which would be annoying.

Leaf473 said:
The "bottom line" question is do you want me to use the categories you provide and the scripture references therein as your list? If so, which categories?

You do not need to use any categories if you do not want to. That is up to you. The scripture references are not my list. It is only a list of scriptures proving that there are categories of law in the old covenant scriptures nothing more and nothing less. I think you may need to re-read this post so you do not get any misunderstandings as to what I have written as I did make this very clear in the linked post.

Leaf473 said:
I think at this point we both agree it is not just the 10 that give us knowledge of sin when broken and make us stand guilty of sin before God. Do you have a list of what commandments, in addition to the 10, give us knowledge of sin when broken and make us stand guilty of sin before God? I'm not asking for a list of categories, such as ceremonial and civil. I am asking about the specific commandments. (However, please see below. Maybe you want me to use the various scripture references as your list?)

I think different people have made lists you can pick up on the web of a total of 613 laws from the old covenant scriptures and 1050 laws from the new covenant scriptures. Which of course would be too many to list here. Of these laws however it is only those laws that are not "shadow laws" as discussed earlier or those laws that are only given to the physical nation of Israel that are "civil laws" that are not applicable to Christians in the new covenant.

Every other law in the old testament are a requirement for Christian living and should not be ignored. Of course in times of ignorance when we do not know any better God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what his Word says (Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17).

If we choose at this point to reject Gods' Word according to Paul after God gives us a knowledge of the truth in order to continue in known unrepentant sin we will be in danger of the judgement *Hebrews 10:26-31. With that in mind it brings me to the question I asked you earlier. Why do you not keep Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath which is one of Gods' 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4). Does this not concern you? James says in James 2:10-11 that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. I am just trying to understand your thinking here.

Leaf473 said:
Yes, and fulfill it as well, as with all the commandments.

So I do not have a misunderstanding as to what your saying here are you a Sabbath keeper then not doing any work and resting on the seventh day of the week according to the requirements listed in Gods' 4th commandment's *Exodus 20:8-11?

Leaf473 said:
Could be applicable or are applicable? Does it vary from one person to the next?

I personally believe that God's dietary laws are applicable and can provide scripture to prove this. Others may not know about these laws so to them they may not be applicable.

Leaf473 said:
Now, when you say,"Gods 10 commandments however are the standard of good and evil...", that gives me the impression that it's just the 10. Should I understand that to mean Gods 10 commandments plus some other commandments are the standard of good and evil?

You should have no misunderstanding in regards to this now as I have already told you God has other laws beside His 10 commandments. It is God's Word however that specifically states that Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing in biblical terms) as shown in the scriptures from Paul in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; John in 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. James of course also stating that if we break any one of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. This is not stating that if God reveals something else to us through other laws written in his Word that we should not believe and follow what God says. This is why I quoted earlier James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 which also stated that if we know God wants us to do something and we do not do it then to us it is sin. Paul also states something similar when he says whatsoever is not of faith is sin in Romans 14:23. However, in the bible God's Word specifically points out breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments is sin so there should be no guessing here as to what God's requirements are in regards to the 10 commandments which of course includes Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath that many of replaces with the teachings and traditions of men that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9.

Leaf473 said:
Do you use the same categories as the Jews?

No, just making the point that there is categories of law all through the old covenant scriptures. The linked post was only showing that the Jews also do the same thing. These were examples to the ceremonial laws for remission of sins that were "shadow laws" (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings; circumcision, the annual Feast days etc) pointing to the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 which are now fulfilled and continued in Jesus based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. In the new covenant Jesus is now our great High Priest (Hebrews 7:1-25) ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (Hebrews 8:1-6). Jesus is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all *Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29; 36.

Leaf473 said:
Do all of the laws in these categories give knowledge of sin when broken? Are they all applicable today? Or do only certain categories give knowledge of sin when broken, and only certain categories are applicable today?

No. For example in the old covenant animal sacrifice for sin would also be considered a moral law as it is the right thing to so when we sin under that covenant. In the old covenant, these "shadow laws" pointed to the coming of the Messiah but God's people were saved in the same way we are today and that is by faith in doing what God's Word asked them to do. Just like the people before Christ we in faith today look back to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world that these old covenant laws for remission of sins all pointed to as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all *Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29; 36. So under the new covenant once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word that the Mosaic "shadow laws" (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings; circumcision, the annual Feast days etc) pointing to the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 and are now fulfilled in Jesus and are now continued in Him based on better promises in the new covenant (Hebrews 8:1-6). So if we have an knowledge of the truth of God's Word and go back to seeking a Levite Priest to do animal sacrifices in an earthly Sanctuary then to us this would be sin as we would be denying the very Christ and Messiah that these old covenant "shadow laws" pointed to.

Hope this is helpful

Leaf473 · Apr 22, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Leaf, I noticed you did not really address much from my last post or answer some of the questions I asked of you in post # 341 linked. So I hope you can revisit it as some point when you do not need to use a cell phone. I can understand that my last post was a long one and that you were only using a cell phone though which would be annoying.

Well, I'm always going to be on a cell phone

I'm sad to hear that you feel I didn't address most of your post. From my point of view, I did a very thorough job.

So, would you like me to go through post 341 again? I would suggest doing it section by section. If I just deal with paragraphs, or even just sentences, I think it will be a lot easier.

Does that sound good to you?

Leaf473 · Apr 23, 2021

@LoveGodsWord

Hi
So... Did you just want to stop here?

What I have to offer at this point is to go through your post 341 again line by line, so to speak. Shall we do that?

Or I'm also fine just stopping here. I have the answer to the question I asked in my first post on this thread, and I thank you for that.

See you around here or there,
Peace be with you!

LoveGodsWord · Apr 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
@LoveGodsWord

Hi
So... Did you just want to stop here?

What I have to offer at this point is to go through your post 341 again line by line, so to speak. Shall we do that?

Or I'm also fine just stopping here. I have the answer to the question I asked in my first post on this thread, and I thank you for that.

See you around here or there,
Peace be with you!

Hello Leaf, it is up to you. I normally go through your posts section by section, point by point and scripture by scripture to show why I might agree or disagree. For me this is the best approach and a good discussion can be built around this. Most people though do not like this approach because it brings to light everything we discuss to the bible so they tend to simply ignore what has been shared with them and pretend it was not written. I am personally of the view however that we should not be afraid to bring everything that we might believe to God's Word because if we truly love Jesus then we should want to be corrected and fix any mistakes we might be holding onto right that would lead us away from him. The scriptures will do this for us if we want to come to the light because Jesus is in the light and it is through the scriptures and believing and following them that we walk and talk with Jesus.

Hope this is helpful

Leaf473 · Apr 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Leaf, it is up to you. I normally go through your posts section by section, point by point and scripture by scripture to show why I might agree or disagree. For me this is the best approach and a good discussion can be built around this. Most people though do not like this approach because it brings to light everything we discuss to the bible so they tend to simply ignore what has been shared with them and pretend it was not written. I am personally of the view however that we should not be afraid to bring everything that we might believe to God's Word because if we truly love Jesus then we should want to be corrected and fix any mistakes we might be holding onto right that would lead us away from him. The scriptures will do this for us if we want to come to the light because Jesus is in the light and it is through the scriptures and believing and following them that we walk and talk with Jesus.

Hope this is helpful

Cool! The first section in post 341

LoveGodsWord said:
No not saying that at all. I have only posted scripture from the new testament that specifically states that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin from Romans 7:7;

Paul uses the word "law" in the book of Romans to refer to the entire law, imo.

In the first passage where he uses the word law, he speaks of Jews who rest in the law. Were those Jews resting in just the Ten commandments? My opinion is that no, it was the entire law.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Cool! The first section in post 341
Paul uses the word "law" in the book of Romans to refer to the entire law, imo. In the first passage where he uses the word law, he speaks of Jews who rest in the law. Were those Jews resting in just the Ten commandments? My opinion is that no, it was the entire law.

I would disagree here for the following reason. It is the context that determines subject matter in both chapter and within scripture. Romans 7:7 is talking about God's 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is. This is also supported in other scriptures in the new testament (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11).

The context of Romans 7:7 however is very specific to Gods' 10 commandments when it says "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust,3 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Thou shalt not covet here is the within scripture context that is referring to Gods 10th commandment written in Exodus 20:17. So Paul here is specifically defining what he already state in Romans 3:20 that God's 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This also agreeing with what John is saying in 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11 in other parts of the bible.

Can you see here that the subject matter in Romans 7:7 is in application to God's 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is by quoting the context to coveting in Exodus 20:17 (10th commandment)?

Hope this is helpful

Leaf473 · Apr 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I would disagree here for the following reason. It is the context that determines subject matter in both chapter and within scripture.

Do you mean in both chapters (plural) as well as in all of scripture?

Or do you mean in both chapter and scripture, scripture here being used as a synonym for verse?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I would disagree here for the following reason. It is the context that determines subject matter in both chapter and within scripture. Romans 7:7 is talking about God's 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is. This is also supported in other scriptures in the new testament (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11).

The context of Romans 7:7 however is very specific to Gods' 10 commandments when it says "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust,3 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Thou shalt not covet here is the within scripture context that is referring to Gods 10th commandment written in Exodus 20:17. So Paul here is specifically defining what he already state in Romans 3:20 that God's 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This also agreeing with what John is saying in 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11 in other parts of the bible.

Can you see here that the subject matter in Romans 7:7 is in application to God's 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is by quoting the context to coveting in Exodus 20:17 (10th commandment)?

Your response here..

Leaf473 said:
Do you mean in both chapters (plural) as well as in all of scripture? Or do you mean in both chapter and scripture, scripture here being used as a synonym for verse?

Not sure what your asking here. I think the full post you are quoting from is very clear proving why Romans 7:7 is only in reference to the context of God's 10 commandments as it is specifically referring to Gods' 10 commadments. Do you disagree?

Leaf473 · Apr 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response here..

Not sure what your asking here. I think the full post you are quoting from is very clear proving why Romans 7:7 is only in reference to the context of God's 10 commandments as it is specifically referring to Gods' 10 commadments. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree.

I'm trying to understand what your reasoning is.

In this quote

LoveGodsWord said:
It is the context that determines subject matter in both chapter...

"chapter" is singular. Are you referring to a particular chapter?
If so, which one?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Yes, I disagree.

I'm trying to understand what your reasoning is.

In this quote

"chapter" is singular. Are you referring to a particular chapter?
If so, which one?

So you disagree that Romans 7:7 is talking about God's 10 commandments when it is talking about the 10 commandments? Please re-read post # 1348 linked. It is very easy to understand. Are you seriously trying to argue that Romans 7:7 is not a reference to God's 10 commandments when it is quoting God's 10 commandments (Thou shalt not covet - Exodus 20:17)?

Leaf473 · Apr 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
So you disagree that Romans 7:7 is talking about God's 10 commandments when it is talking about the 10 commandments?

No, I disagree that Romans 7:7 is talking about the ten commandments only. I believe it is talking about the entire law.

I was discussing Paul's use of the word "law" in the book of Romans.

At that point, you wrote

LoveGodsWord said:
It is the context that determines subject matter in both chapter and within scripture.

Did you mean "chapter" as in Romans chapter 2? Or Romans chapter 7? Or both, in which case it was an easy to make typo and chapters (plural) was meant? Or something else?

Leaf473 · Apr 26, 2021

So, returning to the process of going through post 341,

LoveGodsWord said:
I have only posted scripture from the new testament that specifically states that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin from Romans 7:7;

I think "law" as Paul generally uses it in Romans refers to the entire law, not just the 10 commandments.

We saw that in Romans 2, law refers to the entire law, because it is the entire law that some Jews were resting on.

The next passage where we come to law is in chapter 3. (Of course, Romans was written without chapters, but it's handy to talk about it that way.)
"Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God."

"whatever the law says", again refers to the entire law because the entire law speaks, not just the Ten commandments.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord wrote: I would disagree here for the following reason. It is the context that determines subject matter in both chapter and within scripture. Romans 7:7 is talking about God's 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is. This is also supported in other scriptures in the new testament (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11). The context of Romans 7:7 however is very specific to Gods' 10 commandments when it says "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust,3 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Thou shalt not covet here is the within scripture context that is referring to Gods 10th commandment written in Exodus 20:17. So Paul here is specifically defining what he already state in Romans 3:20 that God's 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This also agreeing with what John is saying in 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11 in other parts of the bible.
Can you see here that the subject matter in Romans 7:7 is in application to God's 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is by quoting the context to coveting in Exodus 20:17 (10th commandment)?

Your response here...

Leaf473 said:
No, I disagree that Romans 7:7 is talking about the ten commandments only. I believe it is talking about the entire law. I was discussing Paul's use of the word "law" in the book of Romans. At that point, you wrote Did you mean "chapter" as in Romans chapter 2? Or Romans chapter 7? Or both, in which case it was an easy to make typo and chapters (plural) was meant? Or something else?

Perhaps you can tell me what you think the post you are responding to is saying? What do you think this post you are quoting from means? I do not think we are going to go very far to be honest Leaf if you cannot acknowledge that Romans 7:7 is talking specifically about God's 10 commandments and is quoting verbatim (word for word) thou shalt not covet as an example of now Paul received a knowledge of what sin was.

Bob S · Apr 26, 2021

Leaf473 said:
So, returning to the process of going through post 341,

I think "law" as Paul generally uses it in Romans refers to the entire law, not just the 10 commandments.

We saw that in Romans 2, law refers to the entire law, because it is the entire law that some Jews were resting on.

The next passage where we come to law is in chapter 3. (Of course, Romans was written without chapters, but it's handy to talk about it that way.)
"Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God."

"whatever the law says", again refers to the entire law because the entire law speaks, not just the Ten commandments.

Hi Leaf, I fear that you have been hooked and the line is pulling you in. There is a big difference between old covenant laws that deal with morality and those that dealt with rituals or ceremony. Laws dealing with morality have been with man since the beginning and will be with us until the end. The ritual laws given to Israel at Sinai were for Israel's benefit and had/has nothing to do with the remainder of mankind. The opponents of the new covenant truth argue the same as what your opponent is doing. They disregard the fact that since Calvary, when the old covenant came to an end and the new and better covenant was ratified with the blood of Jesus, all of ritual laws of the old covenant ceased. They are adamantly opposed to the fact that the weekly Sabbath was a ritual commandment yet they believe all the remainder Holy days were ritual. They have no answer as how Gentiles who were never under the commands given to Israel somehow now are required to observe the fourth commandment which was part of the old covenant laws that ceased when the covenant ended. Christians are not under the old covenant ten commandments. I hope this clears things up and you don't get reeled in.

Leaf473 · Apr 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Perhaps you can tell me what you think the post you are responding to is saying?

I think your post is saying that "law" in Romans 7:7 refers to just the Ten commandments.

I agree that Paul quotes one of the Ten. However, with careful Bible study, I believe it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul is using that commandment as an example of the entire law.

Leaf473 · Apr 26, 2021

Bob S said:
Hi Leaf, I fear that you have been hooked and the line is pulling you in. There is a big difference between old covenant laws that deal with morality and those that dealt with rituals or ceremony. Laws dealing with morality have been with man since the beginning and will be with us until the end. The ritual laws given to Israel at Sinai were for Israel's benefit and had/has nothing to do with the remainder of mankind. The opponents of the new covenant truth argue the same as what your opponent is doing. They disregard the fact that since Calvary, when the old covenant came to an end and the new and better covenant was ratified with the blood of Jesus, all of ritual laws of the old covenant ceased. They are adamantly opposed to the fact that the weekly Sabbath was a ritual commandment yet they believe all the remainder Holy days were ritual. They have no answer as how Gentiles who were never under the commands given to Israel somehow now are required to observe the fourth commandment which was part of the old covenant laws that ceased when the covenant ended. Christians are not under the old covenant ten commandments. I hope this clears things up and you don't get reeled in.

Hi Bob S,
Good to see you again, and thank you for your concern

Imo, there are many different ways to talk about the relationship between the law and Christians. For me personally, by far the easiest is just to go with Galatians where it says that the entire law is fulfilled in the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

My impression, though, is that the people that I have recently been talking to won't go for that. It would be like a foreign language to their ears.

A different approach is to talk about how the law must be dealt with as a whole. I know many people feel they can separate the moral laws out from the other kinds, but I've never seen anyone actually do it in a reasonable fashion. And that's the key, to do it in a reasonable fashion. Of course, anyone can simply hash up the law and say they've made categories. But, careful examination always reveals some flaws with the category system. At least that's been my experience up to now.

And actually, My reason for coming on this thread in the first place was just to ask for a list

Leaf473 · Apr 26, 2021

Bob S said:
Hi Leaf, I fear that you have been hooked and the line is pulling you in. There is a big difference between old covenant laws that deal with morality and those that dealt with rituals or ceremony. Laws dealing with morality have been with man since the beginning and will be with us until the end. The ritual laws given to Israel at Sinai were for Israel's benefit and had/has nothing to do with the remainder of mankind. The opponents of the new covenant truth argue the same as what your opponent is doing. They disregard the fact that since Calvary, when the old covenant came to an end and the new and better covenant was ratified with the blood of Jesus, all of ritual laws of the old covenant ceased. They are adamantly opposed to the fact that the weekly Sabbath was a ritual commandment yet they believe all the remainder Holy days were ritual. They have no answer as how Gentiles who were never under the commands given to Israel somehow now are required to observe the fourth commandment which was part of the old covenant laws that ceased when the covenant ended. Christians are not under the old covenant ten commandments. I hope this clears things up and you don't get reeled in.

But I I think we agree on this:

If a person does wish to separate the law into moral and ceremonial sections, resting every seventh day feels ceremonial.

If one adds things like mandatory church attendance on the 7th Day, then it feels even more ceremonial.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 26, 2021

Leaf473 said:
But I I think we agree on this:

If a person does wish to separate the law into moral and ceremonial sections, resting every seventh day feels ceremonial.

If one adds things like mandatory church attendance on the 7th Day, then it feels even more ceremonial.

God personally writing scripture on stone feels ceremonial? Why not paper than? It's not like He personally wrote a lot of scripture. In fact, the TEN, which includes the 4th are the ONLY scripture that our Savior literally wrote for us! What about God asking to REMEBBER His holy Sabbath does that feel ceremonial? Or placing the Ten in the most holy of holy in the Temple seems ceremonial?

Psalms 111:7 The works of His hands are faithful and right. All His Laws are true. 8 They stand strong forever and ever. They are done by what is true and right.

JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

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