Considering making a change

I am an inquirer, and I think it took me nearly a year to ask a Saint for intercession. Either didn't believe, felt silly, or felt like I was blaspheming in worship because my mind and heart wasn't right. A comment here from a long time ago said "its also about humility, we are much further away from God." That didn't click for me for a while.

At first I prayed for those around me, "St Gerasimos, please pray for __" like for terrible anxiety or chaotic thoughts. A contemporary Saint, St John of Shanghai believed it was important to pray to the local Saints (which can also be the English Saints, or those on your continent).

A True Student of the Saints

It is a true blessing to know those holier then you, who are with Christ our Lord, are praying for and interceding for us, and is a belief (in my opinion) of realizing that yes, truly Christ is Risen, and His Saints are with Him.

Fr Kosmas (of Orthodox Talks) also said in a practical sense, the Saints don't "need" our prayers and we shouldn't "feel bad" if we aren't doing so for this Saint or that - we will be drawn to some, and not to others - but we miss their blessing, they want to help!

This article also hit me in the gut.
http://deathtotheworld.com/articles/the-saint-the-priest-and-face-tattoos/
Some years back, there was a point in my life when I didn’t give a second thought to the Saints. I really didn’t see how they had any place within my faith. In Bible College and in Protestant seminary, I was fed the idea that saints were either a type of good luck charm to sell my house, a statue in your yard to attract birds, or they were individuals likened to magicians whose bones were exploited in medieval times. Fortunately, I had a life-changing experience that dispelled my incorrect notions about Saints and changed my whole paradigm in the way I view these holy servants. I now can’t imagine myself living my life without their guidance and assistance.

I would also recommend reading the Daily Prologue of Ochrid, by St Nikolai, the "Serbian Chrysostom" - who has the Lives of Saints, a hymn, and a short homily typically related to a piece of scripture. Its only 2-3 pages long and even when I had / have doubts, it helped me along the path.
The Prologue from Ochrid | Australian and New Zealand Diocese (ROCOR)

ironyUSA said:

In all honesty, I have read quite a bit of Lossky but Staniloae has been really provoking. The depth and mystery of the Orthodox faith is astounding.

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agreed. Fr Staniloae is incredibly deep

Just recognizing that God has the power to allow any saint to hear any prayer through His grace helps one realize that the saint is not God and there is no pretense or understanding of the qualities of the omnipresence, etc, of God.

I was raised devout Baptist. But once I figured the above out, my objection to prayers to saints evaporated in a heartbeat.

glad you had an edifying experience!

ironyUSA said:

I attended a daily vespers service last night.

Several things stood out to me, but the main thing is how the entire liturgy is directed towards God and not to the congregation. Very different than anything I've been around before. I have never been in any "high church" setting at all. I found it to be beautiful, aesthetically, and LOVED how you feel emersed in antiquity - like you really feel a part of the saints. To be honest, the monotone type chanting and prayers were very, very different and I haven't fully digested it. Initially, it seems odd (not bad, just hard to understand and I don't understand why it is delivered like that.) There was so much time spent telling Christ how great He is, asking Him for His mercy and glorifying Him. Very interesting experience.

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Glad you enjoyed your first service! The chanting is supposed to be heard and understood not as a performance but as a service to God and to the congregation. Remember that when our services were being constructed, only 5-10% of the population would have been literate, so the chanting IS teaching.

Contained in Vespers is the hymn, O Joyful Light, which is the oldest Christian hymn that we know of outside of hymns in the Scriptures themselves.

O joyful light of the holy glory of the immortal Father, the heavenly, holy, blessed Jesus Christ. Now that we have reached the setting of the sun and behold the evening light, we sing to God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is fitting at all times to praise you with cheerful voices, O Son of God, the Giver of life. Behold, the world sings your glory.

ironyUSA said:

I kept hearing "Christ, who by death trampled death" or something similar and was struck by the forwardness of theology in the liturgy. I struggled a bit with the monotone delivery because that bit felt cold and distant, but it was explained that it is supposed to signify the unified voice of the Church in prayer. I guess I wasn't prepared for it. I think in some ways I went there to observe and not really to participate and it was far deeper than I could take in at a single event. I mean this with all respect, so if I say something incorrect - my appologies.

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That would have been Christos Anesti, Christ is Risen

Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and to those in the tombs, granting life.

If you were at a Greek church, we were also using Byzantine tones, which do not align with the western musical scale. It can sound "off" to someone not used to it.

Arabic uses a twelve tone system. So this is what Christ is Risen sounds in Arabic and Greek

St. John is an OCA parish so they would have a more Russian flavor for their services.

Traditionally, our services are sung and "spoken" parts would be intoned. We still have the notion that microphones don't exist and therefore to get the sound out, we need to sing or intone everything.

GreekOrthodox said:

St. John is an OCA parish so they would have a more Russian flavor for their services.

Traditionally, our services are sung and "spoken" parts would be intoned. We still have the notion that microphones don't exist and therefore to get the sound out, we need to sing or intone everything.

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Plus the intoning and singing just sounds better anyway

E.C. said:

Plus the intoning and singing just sounds better anyway

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aw man, shots fired.

ArmyMatt said:

aw man, shots fired.

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I have to admit, the paschal hymn sounds much more joyful in the Russian tradition than the Greek tradition.

If you prefer a Russian style as it sounds better to your ear, and it helps you spiritually, then may those blessings be upon you. The music is not sacred but the words are.

I was singing in Lutheran choirs for 20 years and been a tonsured psalti and reader for close to 20 years and I work hard at learning my craft. I'm not a native Greek speaker but when I do sing in Greek, even the native Greeks compliment me for learning their music and language.

It always humbles me when I hear the priest say,
Again we pray for those who bear fruit, and do good works in this holy and all-venerable church, for those who labor and those who sing, and for the people here present who await Your great and rich mercy.

prodromos said:

I have to admit, the paschal hymn sounds much more joyful in the Russian tradition than the Greek tradition.

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There is a version sung in the first tone and very quickly rather than the traditional version in plagal of the first. IMHO, I've heard it sung so slowly that I think they must put Christ back into the tomb.

I just listened to that flash mob and the Greek is in the first tone which is the one I prefer.

prodromos said:

I have to admit, the paschal hymn sounds much more joyful in the Russian tradition than the Greek tradition.

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yes, but there is a mystical beauty to the Greek version as well.

ironyUSA said:

Dorothea, thank you for the sincerity in your post. That's an awesome testimony.

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Thanks, and you're welcome.

ironyUSA said:

I was raised in a charismatic church and, as soon as I could drive myself, I started attending Southern Baptist churches. A couple of years ago I started taking my faith much more seriously and found that I have some real problems with Protestant theology. As I read the works of the church fathers, I found an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have read a bit of Vladimir Lossky and am blown away by the depth of theology here.

I have contacted the local Eastern Orthodox church about trying to attend... I am really stuck on a single point, however. I understand that Eastern Orthodoxy really views prayer differently than Protestants, but I sincerely don't understand praying to Mary or the saints. Is this really necessary or can someone become Eastern Orthodoxy without embracing this practice?

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It is actually not exclusive just to Eastern Orthodoxy. Judaism has had it even longer. Jews pray at the graves of tzaddikim (righteous ones). This is a very old and universal Jewish tradition (1000s of years). The prayers are said to be especially efficacious on the "yahrtzeit" (anniversary) of the tzaddik's death. Praying at the grave site is not just permitted, but it is recommended. Remember also that Eliyahu (Elijah) gave his tallit to Elisha and it was embedded with special powers.

Judaism has had it even longer.

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Incorrect.

Eastern Orthodox is the continuation of the tabernacle/Hebrew people and the worship of the most High God - so obviously we hold the traditions that God, Father Son and Spirit, handed down from the beginning of time to the Hebrew people, continued to the Jews, and then what Christ taught to keep and spread from the "Light of Israel" Apostles and original converts of the Jewish people then spread to the Gentiles with Christianity.

Judaism, as in modern post-Incarnation of the most High God in the Person of Jesus Christ, is not "older" - they stopped worshiping the Most High God with the rejection of His Son.

The Mishna and Talmudic worship is very far removed from the Torah and their temple was destroyed, their priesthood is gone.

The Talmud even confirms the "strange occurrences" that went on during Christs ministry. Gods Providence to help soften the hearts of the priests perhaps?

http://studiahumana.com/pliki/wydania/10443-Voulme6_Issue2-08_paper.pdf
Yom39b - Our Rabbis taught: Throughout the forty years that Simeon the Righteous ministered, the lot would always come up in the right hand; from that time on, it would come up now in the right hand, now in the left…
Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the lot did not come up in the right hand.

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On Saints, the earliest Christians recognized the Saints as being risen with Christ:
St Clement of Rome, died 102AD, "Come to the Saints for they who unite themselves to them will be made holy."

From my limited understanding, this is affirming we believe Christ rose from the dead, and His Word is true that those who believe "will not see death" - they are "friends" of Christ, and intercede for us.

On the Theotokos, some reading of St Maximus may help:
>On Our Champion Leader — Classical Christianity