The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

Gregorikos · Apr 19, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Not really. Polygamy began in Cain's line and is what happens when brothers are competitive. As vengeful people tend to be. Competitive to the point of violence according to the first recorded polygamist Lamech. Descendant of Cain who learnt he is the product of his mother.

Who on earth wasn't in Cain's line at that point? Besides his mom, dad, and wife? No one.

Ohorseman · Apr 19, 2021

Gregorikos said:
Who on earth wasn't in Cain's line at that point? Besides his mom, dad, and wife? No one.

GEN4:17
Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and Cain built a city, and named the city Enoch, after the name of his son.

In addition to those questions, why would Cain need a city?

Ohorseman · Apr 19, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
In Revelation the Woman stands on the moon. She is no longer subject to change.

No longer subject to change, are you able to flesh that out a little?

Eloy Craft · Apr 20, 2021

Gregorikos said:
Who on earth wasn't in Cain's line at that point? Besides his mom, dad, and wife? No one.

The descendants of Seth.

Eloy Craft · Apr 20, 2021

Ohorseman said:
No longer subject to change, are you able to flesh that out a little?

Sure. Her body is not subject to the laws of physics. Christ shares His resurrection with her. She has put on incorruption.

Paidiske · Apr 20, 2021

...and here one might have been forgiven for thinking that it connoted menopause.

(The end of bodily cycles roughly corresponding to the lunar cycle).

Eloy Craft · Apr 20, 2021

Ohorseman said:
addition to those questions, why would Cain need a city?

He's the first communist. The family serves the state. No?

Paidiske said:
...and here one might have been forgiven for thinking that it connoted menopause.

(The end of bodily cycles roughly corresponding to the lunar cycle).

Good insight!.

Paidiske · Apr 20, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Good insight!.

I still think your interpretation of the cosmic symbology is deeply problematic in its denigration of women.

Gregorikos · Apr 20, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
The descendants of Seth.

No, Lamech started polygamy in 4:19. Seth wasn't born yet.

Gregorikos · Apr 20, 2021

Ohorseman said:
GEN4:17
Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and Cain built a city, and named the city Enoch, after the name of his son.

In addition to those questions, why would Cain need a city?

Good question. Clearly Adam and Eve had daughters that we aren't told about. But to imagine other sons besides Cain and Able prior to the birth of Seth makes 4:25 nonsensical.

I think we have to take Genesis 4:17 as a condensed timeline. Cain started a city, named after his son, which we are told about at the birth of his son. Perhaps where they lived at the time, became the city, which was eventually populated with others. This passage is the last we see of Cain, so we find out about the city he built here. We don't know how long he lived, but his brother Seth lived 912 years. Cain may have lived a long time too.

Eloy Craft · Apr 20, 2021

Gregorikos said:
No, Lamech started polygamy in 4:19. Seth wasn't born yet.

I must have misunderstood the question.

Ohorseman · Apr 20, 2021

Gregorikos said:
You're making a distinction where there is no difference.

Authority is defined as:

authority noun (POWER) - - Cambridge Dictionary

Power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior. - Merriam Webster Dictionary

The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience. -Oxford Dictionary

But here is the actual definition. When you did your cut and paste you left off the actual definition, LOL.

authority

authority noun (POWER)
[ U ]
the moral or legal right or ability to control:

Here is the link:
authority

Gregorikos said:
I'm going to invite Max to consult any dictionary of the English language to see if he can find one where the definition of authority doesn't include the word "power."

LOL, the first one you provided but left out the actual meaning.

You gotta admit, that's little bit funny.

When I wrote:
"It is not about power like that. Patriarchy is not about power either."

What I was meaning to say is that Patriarchy is more about authority than power, as defined in that first definition. I should have been more clear with my wording.

Gregorikos said:
I think we have to take Genesis 4:17 as a condensed timeline. Cain started a city, named after his son, which we are told about at the birth of his son. Perhaps where they lived at the time, became the city, which was eventually populated with others. This passage is the last we see of Cain, so we find out about the city he built here. We don't know how long he lived, but his brother Seth lived 912 years. Cain may have lived a long time too.

Nice job there! I did not think about the long timelines we are seeing here. Given that they lived so long they could populate an entire city over the centuries. No joke, that "built a city" part bugged me since I was a boy because I never considered it was a condensed timeline.

Ohorseman · Apr 20, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Sure. Her body is not subject to the laws of physics. Christ shares His resurrection with her. She has put on incorruption.

Ah, Mother Mary. As a protestant I have struggled with the Mary issue for years and years. But because I have been listening to a lot of Catholic and Orthodox teachers, I understand it more and see that there indeed is something special about Mary. I can see myself going East or Catholic. But only after the passing of my parents out of respect for them - honor thy parents. My father would be troubled by such a thing and I would not put him there.

Eloy Craft said:
He had another dream, and told it to his brothers, saying, “Look, I have had another dream: the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” 10 But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him, and said to him, “What kind of dream is this that you have had? Shall we indeed come, I and your mother and your brothers, and bow to the ground before you?”

Consider the symbolism of the dream again, where the mother is the moon, and then compare it to the symbolism from Revelation 12:1.

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

This connection. Since Mary is the new Eve, the moon under her feet, what do you think that represents? End of patriarchy, considering that Christ makes things new at His Second Coming and we will no longer have marriage? Or, do you see something else?

Gregorikos · Apr 21, 2021

Ohorseman said:
But here is the actual definition. When you did your cut and paste you left off the actual definition, LOL.

authority

authority noun (POWER)
[ U ]
the moral or legal right or ability to control:

Here is the link:
authority

I posted three words. Authority, noun, and power. The first line of the dictionary says that authority is a noun and it refers to power. I didn't think I needed to go any further, and I don't see why you felt it needed any more, as if to undo the connection between authority and power that was made on the first line.

You have denied that patriarchy is about power, but you admit it is father rule, and is male authority over women. Yet every English dictionary defines the word authority with the word power. You go in circles.

Your line: "Patriarchy involves power but it is about authority"

I don't know why you keep arguing.

LOL, the first one you provided but left out the actual meaning.
You gotta admit, that's little bit funny.

No it isn't funny. What's funny is that the very first line in the dictionary, even before it defined the word, equated authority with power. And yet you were unsure. Now that is funny.

When I wrote:
"It is not about power like that. Patriarchy is not about power either."

What I was meaning to say is that Patriarchy is more about authority than power, as defined in that first definition. I should have been more clear with my wording.

And again, all authority is a form of power. It says so in every dictionary.

Nice job there! I did not think about the long timelines we are seeing here. Given that they lived so long they could populate an entire city over the centuries. No joke, that "built a city" part bugged me since I was a boy because I never considered it was a condensed timeline.

Thanks

Eloy Craft · Apr 21, 2021

I enjoy this speculative meditation.
I see the purpose of human life in this image of the New Woman. God chose to be bound to humanity vie the most powerful and intimate relationship possible on earth. The maternal bond. God loves us and through Mary received love in it's deepest human manifestation.
He lifts us up to Himself and we become divinized.
I don't see the end of patriarchy but a confirmation of the order God intended lived as God intended. No one will want life to be any other way.
There will be offspring and I think children will happen like it did with Jesus. Not like animals like now.
Earthly life doesn't end in death but a lifting up body and soul. A continuously growing population in heaven. A heaven that's present and familiar on earth. Our parents pop in and out of the material realm as love requires. No dead remains no grave yards

Ohorseman said:
This connection. Since Mary is the new Eve, the moon under her feet, what do you think that represents? End of patriarchy, considering that Christ makes things new at His Second Coming and we will no longer have marriage? Or, do you see something else?

but all humanity present. There is no past, no history but an ever expanding present as heaven receives human life perfected on earth. Earthly life will be a kind of childhood unburdened by the need to survive and in heaven an ever growing human population in Glory.

stevevw · Apr 22, 2021

The patriarchy is and was just one part of how society operated and is not the be all and end all of how males lived. The problem i see is that today some are attributing just about everything men do as being some kind of oppression and dominance when men may have been in certain positions as opposed to women for good reasons and often as the natural and right thing to do. It seems to me that some are over stating what the patriarchy represents.

Paidiske · Apr 22, 2021

So, @stevevw, which rights would you deny women as the "natural and right" thing to do?

Education? Employment? Social participation?

Ohorseman · Apr 22, 2021

Gregorikos said:
I posted three words. Authority, noun, and power. The first line of the dictionary says that authority is a noun and it refers to power. I didn't think I needed to go any further, and I don't see why you felt it needed any more, as if to undo the connection between authority and power that was made on the first line.

You have denied that patriarchy is about power, but you admit it is father rule, and is male authority over women. Yet every English dictionary defines the word authority with the word power. You go in circles.

Your line: "Patriarchy involves power but it is about authority"

When you wrote, “A prophecy predicting Joseph would be a powerful person…”, you were referring to him being second to Pharaoh, that being governmental power. I responded as follows:

“It is not about power like that. Patriarchy is not about power either.”

In my first statement , I am saying that patriarchy is not about governmental power. And in my follow up statement I am saying that patriarchy is not about power in the manner that your side keeps characterizing it. That is to say, done correctly it is not oppressive. Rather, patriarchy is about God given authority and responsibility. But, yeah, power being in the mix is a given and that is what you are saying. Authority without power doesn’t work.

Ohorseman · Apr 22, 2021

Gregorikos said:
I don't know why you keep arguing.

Yes, brother. Forgive me. We should stop arguing about this word “power”.

2 Timothy 2:14
Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Nor should we argue about the word “head” or “helper”.

Ohorseman · Apr 22, 2021

@Eloy Craft , Concerning Genesis, I don’t think we can change or stop what God said at the Fall. Case in point: Satan tried and failed to prevent Messiah. Woman nor man can stop the things God told us… no more than the serpent can overcome crawling on his belly, eating dust, or having his head bruised.

You mentioned what Eve said when she gave birth to Cain. Do you think that this matriarchy is what eventually led to the Flood?

Also, you mentioned earlier the harlot riding the beast in Revelation being about matriarchy. Or, maybe it was this:

Rev 18
To the extent that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, to the same extent give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.

Do you think Satan will try to replace patriarchy with matriarchy at the end of days, and this will be part of the final battle?

Matriarchy, it looks like it prevails in the African American population in the US. 77% are born to single moms and the government is their father. Nobody talks about it but it is true. The liberal side of the government likes the result - dependency and control.

77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants

The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

Ordinary Mystic

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Ordinary Mystic

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Myth only points, Truth happened!

Take up your cross and follow Me

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Take up your cross and follow Me

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