Biden Creating Commission to Study Expanding the Supreme Court

NxNW

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by all means give us the wording from the 4th amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It should be pretty clear to any reasonable person.
 
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mark46

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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It should be pretty clear to any reasonable person.

and this protection against against unreasonable search and seizure means that the government cannot have laws against homosexuality? and abortion?

Courts make those interpretations as they choose, for the good of society. To me, we fool ourselves when we make believe that the Constitution requires such intervention because of the "right to privacy".
 
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and this protection against against unreasonable search and seizure means that the government cannot have laws against homosexuality? and abortion?

Courts make those interpretations as they choose, for the good of society. To me, we fool ourselves when we make believe that the Constitution requires such intervention because of the "right to privacy".

Homosexuality is only known when a person makes it known to others, and therefore gives up the privacy of being a homosexual.
 
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TLK Valentine

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and this protection against against unreasonable search and seizure means that the government cannot have laws against homosexuality? and abortion?

It would be pretty difficult to enforce them... for starters, the perpetrators would have to be committing their "crimes" in public.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Homosexuality is only known when a person makes it known to others, and therefore gives up the privacy of being a homosexual.

But the law can only punish a person for actually committing a homosexual act.

Claiming to be a homosexual wouldn't be enough; you'd have to catch them red handed, as it were.
 
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NxNW

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and this protection against against unreasonable search and seizure means that the government cannot have laws against homosexuality? and abortion?

A right to abortion is certainly implied by the 4th. Otherwise the woman's body is being unreasonably seized.

Similar reasoning can apply to homosexuality.
 
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JSRG

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A right to abortion is certainly implied by the 4th. Otherwise the woman's body is being unreasonably seized.
The act of preventing someone from having an abortion has nothing to do with the seizure described in the 4th Amendment, which is concerning the seizure of things for evidence. This supposed seizure of someone's body is no more than the seizure inherent in preventing someone from committing any crime.

For that matter, even the Supreme Court itself when deciding Roe v. Wade didn't rely on the Fourth Amendment. It relied more sensibly on the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment ("nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"). Not that relying on the Fourteenth Amendment is particularly sensible either, but still better than the Fourth, sort of like how while it's not sensible to drive at two times the legal alcohol limit, it's more sensible than driving at three times the legal limit.

A great critique of Roe v. Wade was written soon after the decision by John Hart Ely that explains the major problems in the decision. Note that John Hart Ely is (1) one of the most cited constitutional scholars in US history and (2) was staunchly pro-choice so he cannot be accused of bias in this matter (he point-blanks states in the article that if he were a legislator he would vote for a law that would have the same effect as the decision did). Some portions of it are obsolete (e.g. his mention of laws prohibiting homosexuality is negated by Lawrence v. Texas), but the primary arguments hold up. I highly recommend reading the entire thing, but I recognize some may not want to go through it all, so here's a few good excerpts:

I suppose there is nothing to prevent one from using the word "privacy" to mean the freedom to live one's life without governmental interference. But the Court obviously does not so use the term. Nor could it, for such a right is at stake in every case. Our life styles are constantly limited, often seriously, by governmental regulation; and while many of us would prefer less direction, granting that desire the status of a preferred constitutional right would yield a system of "government" virtually unrecognizable to us and only slightly more recognizable to our forefathers. The Court's observations concerning the serious, life-shaping costs of having a child prove what might to the thoughtless have seemed unprovable: That even though a human life, or a potential human life, hangs in the balance, the moral dilemma abortion poses is so difficult as to be heartbreaking. What they fail to do is even begin to resolve that dilemma so far as our governmental system is concerned by associating either side of the balance with a value inferable from the Constitution.

And later on:

Of course a woman's freedom to choose an abortion is part of the "liberty" the Fourteenth Amendment says shall not be denied without due process of law, as indeed is anyone's freedom to do what he wants. But "due process" generally guarantees only that the inhibition be procedurally fair and that it have some "rational" connection–though plausible is probably a better word–with a permissible governmental goal. What is unusual about Roe is that the liberty involved is accorded a far more stringent protection, so stringent that a desire to preserve the fetus's existence is unable to overcome it–a protection more stringent, I think it fair to say, than that the present Court accords the freedom of the press explicitly guaranteed by the First Amendment. What is frightening about Roe is that this super-protected right is not inferable from the language of the Constitution, the framers' thinking respecting the specific problem in issue, any general value derivable from the provisions they included, or the nation's governmental structure. Nor is it explainable in terms of the unusual political impotence of the group judicially protected vis-a-vis the interest that legislatively prevailed over it. And that, I believe–the predictable early reaction to Roe notwithstanding ("more of the same Warren-type activism")–is a charge that can responsibly be leveled at no other decision of the past twenty years. At times the inferences the Court has drawn from the values the Constitution marks for special protection have been controversial, even shaky, but never before has its sense of an obligation to draw one been so obviously lacking.

Not in the last thirty-five years at any rate. For, as the received learning has it, this sort of thing did happen before, repeatedly. From its 1905 decision in Lochner v. New York into the 1930's the Court, frequently though not always under the rubric of "liberty of contract," employed the Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth and Fifth Amendments to invalidate a good deal of legislation. According to the dissenters at the time and virtually all the commentators since, the Court had simply manufactured a constitutional right out of whole cloth and used it to superimpose its own view of wise social policy on those of the legislatures.

(I'm skipping past a little here which discusses the Lochner era and its repudiation)

It may be, however–at least it is not the sort of claim one can disprove–that the "right to an abortion," or noneconomic rights generally, accord more closely with "this generation's idealization of America" than the "rights" asserted in either Lochner or Dandridge. But that attitude, of course, is precisely the point of the Lochner philosophy, which would grant unusual protection to those "rights" that somehow seem most pressing, regardless of whether the Constitution suggests any special solicitude for them. The Constitution has little to say about contract, less about abortion, and those who would speculate about which the framers would have been more likely to protect may not be pleased with the answer. The Court continues to disavow the philosophy of Lochner. Yet as Justice Stewart's concurrence admits, it is impossible candidly to regard Roe as the product of anything else.

That alone should be enough to damn it. Criticism of the Lochner philosophy has been virtually universal and will not be rehearsed here.

(there's a lot more good stuff in the article, again I really recommend reading it)

As a brief side note, it is a little amusing to see people like Rand Paul try to defend the Lochner decision, apparently oblivious to the fact that a constant criticism of Roe v. Wade from the judicial community, as seen above, is that it's too much like Lochner.
 
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TLK Valentine

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A right to abortion is certainly implied by the 4th. Otherwise the woman's body is being unreasonably seized.

Our last Republican president saw nothing unreasonable about "seizing" women's bodies... just sayin'.
 
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98cwitr

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A right to abortion is certainly implied by the 4th. Otherwise the woman's body is being unreasonably seized.

Similar reasoning can apply to homosexuality.

Seized by who? Surely not the government. Baby's body is being unreasonably seized right before her or she is killed though.
 
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98cwitr

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Our last Republican president saw nothing unreasonable about "seizing" women's bodies... just sayin'.

Consent is present; but sexual immorality is apparent. Shall we condemn it outright?
 
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NxNW

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The act of preventing someone from having an abortion has nothing to do with the seizure described in the 4th Amendment, which is concerning the seizure of things for evidence.

The language of the 4th does not differentiate. It does not specify government seizure. Anti-choicers claim that the unborn is a full-fledged human being. I disagree, but if it were true, the woman's body is being seized by this being against her will. She has a constitutional right against this unwilling seizure -- in what other circumstances can someone attached themselves to another person against their will? It's an outrage to force a woman to endure it against her will. You can't force her to donate blood or donate a kidney. You can't force her to provide shelter to a freezing traveler. She has the right to expel an invader from her house, even if that person is certain to freeze to death. And of course, if the unborn is not a human being, as I assert, then abortion is perfectly moral.

Abortion was perfectly legal during the time of the Founding Fathers. They made no effort to outlaw it.

I find it disturbing that those who claim to oppose government interference in our lives, insist on policing the bedroom and interfering in the relationships between doctors and patients. It's hypocrisy.
 
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NxNW

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Seized by who? Surely not the government.

If her right to abortion is being denied, then it's clearly the government doing the seizing.
Baby's body is being unreasonably seized right before her or she is killed though.

There is no baby.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Seized by who? Surely not the government. Baby's body is being unreasonably seized right before her or she is killed though.

Got a plan to stop it?
 
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TLK Valentine

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The language of the 4th does not differentiate. It does not specify government seizure. Anti-choicers claim that the unborn is a full-fledged human being. I disagree, but if it were true, the woman's body is being seized by this being against her will. She has a constitutional right against this unwilling seizure -- in what other circumstances can someone attached themselves to another person against their will?
Ah, I see--I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were claiming something else. However, your argument is still in error.

First, even setting aside cases such as someone grabbing you and refusing to let go (e.g. something like the Old Man of the Sea), I can immediately and easily point to a circumstance where someone attaches themselves to another person against their will: Siamese twins. No Siamese twin, after all, ever agreed to be attached to the other. Indeed, someone is far more "seized" by a Siamese twin than by a pregnancy; pregnancies last for less than a year and are less cumbersome than having a Siamese twin. Thus if we were to follow your logic that someone attaching themselves to you against your will gives you a constitutional right to get rid of them, a Siamese twin has a constitutional right to kill their twin if they want.

Second, it is implausible to construe the act of someone attaching themselves to another person against their will as a "seizure" under the Fourth Amendment. Seizure (as applied to persons) has long been understood to mean actual restraining. While there has been some debate as to things like whether it requires literal physical restraining or is accomplished by officers behaving in a way to make someone believe they are unable to legally leave (United States v. Medenhall), or if mere attempt to restrain qualifies (Torres v. Madrid), restraining someone's movement intentionally is a critical aspect of the seizure of a person. A nicely clear definition found in the unanimous decision Brendlin v. California states "A person is seized and thus entitled to challenge the government’s action when officers, by physical force or a show of authority, terminate or restrain the person’s freedom of movement through means intentionally applied." The state of pregnancy may be cumbersome, especially in the later months, but it is hard to see how it qualifies as a seizeure in the sense of the Fourth Amendment. (this isn't even getting into the question of whether it would count as an unreasonable seizure)

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Fourth Amendment does only apply to government power, not that of private individuals. Your contention seems to be that it doesn't specify government but that is so obvious from context it doesn't need to be expressed.

Longstanding and consistent precedent backs this up. It's exactly why some Fourth Amendment casework is about the question of whether a search/seizure counts as being done by the government or by a private actor. If, as you claim, it applied to everyone, then there would be no need to settle these questions. Are all of the various Supreme Court decisions (to say nothing of the countless lower court decisions) throughout history on whether something constituted a governmental search or seizure (and therefore subject to the Fourth Amendment) or a search or seizure from a private actor (and therefore not subject to the Fourth Amendment) simply them wasting their time?

Indeed, the Supreme Court could not be clearer on the subject in its opinions. For example, consider United States v. Jacobsen from 1980. In this case, the situation was that a package got damaged and employees of a a freight carrier delivering it (along with a lot of other things) opened it as a result, they discovered a powdery substance and alerted the Drug Enforcement Administration. They took part of the powder to run a test on it and discovered it was cocaine, leading to arrests. Thus the question was whether the governments' actions constituted a search or seizure, because this was originally done by private actors prior. In the decision, it is bluntly stated:

"This Court has also consistently construed this protection [of the Fourth Amendment] as proscribing only governmental action; it is wholly inapplicable "to a search or seizure, even an unreasonable one, effected by a private individual not acting as an agent of the Government or with the participation or knowledge of any governmental official.""

By the way, it should be noted that this majority opinion was joined by Blackmun, the guy who wrote Roe v. Wade. Actually, the quote within the above quote is from a Blackmun opinion! The guy who wrote Roe v. Wade explicitly stated that the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to private individuals and obviously disagrees with your assertion. (again, I feel his reasoning in Roe v. Wade was very wrong... but it nevertheless was superior to claiming the right to an abortion is found in the Fourth Amendment)

But of course someone might say that this was a 7-2 case, with the dissent saying that it was a Fourth Amendment violation. The problem is, the dissent didn't take any issue with the idea that the Fourth Amendment applied only to government action. Its disagreement was on whether the prior search/seizure by the private actors meant that the government's subsequent actions didn't constitute such (more technically, it felt some portions of the case were unclear and wanted more factfinding--the point is it clearly took no disagreement with the assertion that the Fourth Amendment applied only to the government). If the Fourth Amendment applies to everyone, government or not, then there was no reason for any of them--majority or dissent--to draw this distinction at all.

Or how about we go back quite a bit further, to the 1921 decision Burdeau v. McDowell. Here a thief stole documents from someone that demonstrated illegal acts on their part, then later turned them over to law enforcement. The question was whether or not the government using them in a case constituted a Fourth Amendment violation (it included it did not). Again we see:

"The Fourth Amendment gives protection against unlawful searches and seizures, and, as shown in the previous cases, its protection applies to governmental action. Its origin and history clearly show that it was intended as a restraint upon the activities of sovereign authority, and was not intended to be a limitation upon other than governmental agencies; as against such authority, it was the purpose of the Fourth Amendment to secure the citizen in the right of unmolested occupation of his dwelling and the possession of his property, subject to the right of seizure by process duly issued."

Now, like before, there was a dissent in this case. But again like before, no disagreement is taken with the claim that the Fourth Amendment applies only to government action; the dissent's disagreement was concerning other things.

From what I can tell, there is not a single Supreme Court opinion--not even a dissent--that claims that the Fourth Amendment applies to non-government actors. There are cases where it is stated that a private actor with some kind of governmental connection that committed a search or seizure could run afoul of the Fourth Amendment, but again this still requires a government connection. Someone is free to correct me and point to an opinion that did express such a thing--but having looked at various ones throughout history, I see no one giving this opinion, even in a dissent.

As a brief aside, I wish to make something clear, as someone may misunderstand: Obviously, acts such as kidnapping, robbery, or trespassing are still illegal when committed by individuals rather than the government. However, they are illegal due to laws passed that made them illegal; they are not illegal due to the Fourth Amendment.

So in summary, it seems abundantly clear that the Fourth Amendment only restricts the government to begin with. Further, the state of pregnancy can hardly be considered a "seizure" under its definition anyway. And if we were to conclude that all of this somehow grants a right to an abortion, one has to conclude by the logic presented that it grants someone a right to kill their Siamese twin.

It's an outrage to force a woman to endure it against her will. You can't force her to donate blood or donate a kidney.
These qualify much better as being a "seizure" than anything related to abortion is (after all, they actually legally require loss of movement in forcing them to participate in the procedure), not to mention that there's obviously a difference between requiring someone to submit to a medical procedure versus simply prohibiting it (abortion is, ultimately, a medical procedure). Requiring someone to procure a kidney for donation is a much more plausible claim of being a deprivation of liberty without due process or law, or for that matter a loss of privacy, than banning kidney transplants would be. Much as is the difference between a law mandating abortions compared to one that bans abortions.

You can't force her to provide shelter to a freezing traveler. She has the right to expel an invader from her house, even if that person is certain to freeze to death.
I believe it is absolutely constitutional to force people to provide shelter to a freezing traveler. The Third Amendment's prohibition on requiring people in time of peace to have to quarter soldiers (though it allows it during wartime) would be pointless if it were inherently unconstitutional to force people to provide shelter to others. Whether it would be good policy to pass such a law requiring people to give shelter is another matter altogether, but the question here is the issue of constitutionality.

And of course, if the unborn is not a human being, as I assert, then abortion is perfectly moral.
Even if true, whether something is moral or not has nothing to do with questions of constitutionality.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I find it disturbing that those who claim to oppose government interference in our lives, insist on policing the bedroom and interfering in the relationships between doctors and patients. It's hypocrisy.

They don't want government interference in their lives -- just in other people's.

No regulations on business, just on pleasure.
 
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NxNW

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I can immediately and easily point to a circumstance where someone attaches themselves to another person against their will: Siamese twins. No Siamese twin, after all, ever agreed to be attached to the other. Indeed, someone is far more "seized" by a Siamese twin than by a pregnancy; pregnancies last for less than a year and are less cumbersome than having a Siamese twin. Thus if we were to follow your logic that someone attaching themselves to you against your will gives you a constitutional right to get rid of them, a Siamese twin has a constitutional right to kill their twin if they want.

Considering that we routinely separate Siamese twins, I don't see this as much of a refutation. But if an adult twin insisted that s/he be separated, even if it results in the certain death of the other twin, I would still consider that to be a Constitutional right.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Fourth Amendment does only apply to government power, not that of private individuals. Your contention seems to be that it doesn't specify government but that is so obvious from context it doesn't need to be expressed.

Even though there is no text restricting it to the government? By that line of reasoning, the government could simply hire 1099 contractors to commit such violations and citizens would have no recourse.

By the way, it should be noted that this majority opinion was joined by Blackmun, the guy who wrote Roe v. Wade. Actually, the quote within the above quote is from a Blackmun opinion! The guy who wrote Roe v. Wade explicitly stated that the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to private individuals and obviously disagrees with your assertion. (again, I feel his reasoning in Roe v. Wade was very wrong... but it nevertheless was superior to claiming the right to an abortion is found in the Fourth Amendment)

Clearly you disagree with Blackmun's reasoning re Roe, and I disagree with it re the 4th, because there is no actual text to support the latter reasoning. It is invented out of whole cloth, as they say.

if we were to conclude that all of this somehow grants a right to an abortion, one has to conclude by the logic presented that it grants someone a right to kill their Siamese twin.

Not at all. It grants someone the right to forcibly detach their twin. The twin's death is merely incidental, and not a valid reason for banning the separation.

I believe it is absolutely constitutional to force people to provide shelter to a freezing traveler.

You'll have to provide the passage that supports this. Such a requirement is clearly a violation of one's liberty. If you come home in a storm to find that someone has broken into your house to avoid freezing to death, you have the right to expel them at gunpoint, even if it means certain death.
 
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First, even setting aside cases such as someone grabbing you and refusing to let go (e.g. something like the Old Man of the Sea), I can immediately and easily point to a circumstance where someone attaches themselves to another person against their will: Siamese twins. No Siamese twin, after all, ever agreed to be attached to the other. Indeed, someone is far more "seized" by a Siamese twin than by a pregnancy; pregnancies last for less than a year and are less cumbersome than having a Siamese twin. Thus if we were to follow your logic that someone attaching themselves to you against your will gives you a constitutional right to get rid of them, a Siamese twin has a constitutional right to kill their twin if they want.
Thank you for beginning with this.
It was delightful.
 
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