If Daniel 7:22 is the interpretation of Daniel 7:9-11....

DavidPT

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Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Verse 16 makes it crystal clear that the interpretation of verses 9-11, for example, is found somewhere after verse 16. Where then is the interpretation of verses 9-11 if it's not verse 22? So how is that some ppl claim that verses 9-11 are meaning once Christ has returned in the end of this age, but that verse 22 is meaning a time during the first century or maybe even earlier? Doesn't verse 22 chronologically follow verse 21? And if verse 21 involves the same little horn beast that is given to the burning flame in Daniel 7:11, and that Daniel 7:11 is meaning in the end of this age once Christ returns, it is then nothing but nonsensical to interpret verse 22 to be involving a time in the first century. Where is it that some ppl learn to reason these things in an inconsistent manner like this? And then they expect you to trust that they are correct about these things, regardless that their manner of interpreting, in this particular case, doesn't involve any coherent consistency.

It's simple, whatever period of time Daniel 7:9-11 is involving, so is Daniel 7:22 involving that same period of time.

And to go one step further, whatever period of time Daniel 7:9-11 and Daniel 7:22 are referring to, so is the following referring to that same period of time---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Revelation 20:4). That is pretty much word for word what it says in Daniel 7:22---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High.

Would anybody argue that the 'them' meant in Revelation 20:4 is not meaning the saints of the most High? Revelation 20:4 involves thrones, and so does Daniel 7:22 according to Daniel 7:9. Revelation 20:4 involves judgment being given to someone, and so does Daniel 7:22. Daniel 7:22 involves the time has come that the saints possessed the kingdom. And so does Revelation 20:4---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Clearly meaning after the beast is given to the burning flame.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4). This is already in the past when the martyrs lived again and begin reigning with Christ a thousand years. That means that the beast has to ascend out of the pit and cause their martyrdom before the thousand years even begin. So how is that some claim we are already in the thousand years? Why doesn't that agree with any of the above I have submitted?


Some argue that Daniel 7:9-11 is referring to the great white throne judgment. But if I am correct about all of the above, how could it be if it involves the beginning of the thousand years instead? The great white throne judgment is clearly after the thousand years, not prior to it or during it instead.
 
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ewq1938

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Everything here looks correct. A little extra to think about:


Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Lot's wife had her life prolonged for a short period of time. She did not die from the fiery wrath of God in Sodom as the rest did. She symbolizes those who survive past the second coming and are dealt with at a different time. She died the same literal day that Sodom burned and so the nations that are ruled over by Christ will have their lives prolonged for a symbolic day, that thousand year day, and those who will still reject Christ and be deceived by Satan will be punished outside of Jerusalem.
 
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DavidPT

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Everything here looks correct. A little extra to think about:


Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Lot's wife had her life prolonged for a short period of time. She did not die from the fiery wrath of God in Sodom as the rest did. She symbolizes those who survive past the second coming and are dealt with at a different time. She died the same literal day that Sodom burned and so the nations that are ruled over by Christ will have their lives prolonged for a symbolic day, that thousand year day, and those who will still reject Christ and be deceived by Satan will be punished outside of Jerusalem.


That's pretty much how I understand Daniel 7:12 myself. If Daniel 7:9-11 involves what happens in the end of this age, why wouldn't Daniel 7:12 also involve what happens in the end of this age? Further proof that the great white throne judgment can't be meant in Daniel 7:9-11, because it makes nonsense out of verse 12 if that is the case. There are no lives being prolonged for a season and time, after the great white throne judgment. But there would be before the time of that judgment. And if Daniel 7:9-12 involve events that pertain to the 2nd coming in the end of this age, how can anything other than the thousand years and satan's little season possibly explain verse 12?
 
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Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Verse 16 makes it crystal clear that the interpretation of verses 9-11, for example, is found somewhere after verse 16. Where then is the interpretation of verses 9-11 if it's not verse 22? So how is that some ppl claim that verses 9-11 are meaning once Christ has returned in the end of this age, but that verse 22 is meaning a time during the first century or maybe even earlier? Doesn't verse 22 chronologically follow verse 21? And if verse 21 involves the same little horn beast that is given to the burning flame in Daniel 7:11, and that Daniel 7:11 is meaning in the end of this age once Christ returns, it is then nothing but nonsensical to interpret verse 22 to be involving a time in the first century. Where is it that some ppl learn to reason these things in an inconsistent manner like this? And then they expect you to trust that they are correct about these things, regardless that their manner of interpreting, in this particular case, doesn't involve any coherent consistency.

It's simple, whatever period of time Daniel 7:9-11 is involving, so is Daniel 7:22 involving that same period of time.

And to go one step further, whatever period of time Daniel 7:9-11 and Daniel 7:22 are referring to, so is the following referring to that same period of time---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Revelation 20:4). That is pretty much word for word what it says in Daniel 7:22---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High.

Would anybody argue that the 'them' meant in Revelation 20:4 is not meaning the saints of the most High? Revelation 20:4 involves thrones, and so does Daniel 7:22 according to Daniel 7:9. Revelation 20:4 involves judgment being given to someone, and so does Daniel 7:22. Daniel 7:22 involves the time has come that the saints possessed the kingdom. And so does Revelation 20:4---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Clearly meaning after the beast is given to the burning flame.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4). This is already in the past when the martyrs lived again and begin reigning with Christ a thousand years. That means that the beast has to ascend out of the pit and cause their martyrdom before the thousand years even begin. So how is that some claim we are already in the thousand years? Why doesn't that agree with any of the above I have submitted?


Some argue that Daniel 7:9-11 is referring to the great white throne judgment. But if I am correct about all of the above, how could it be if it involves the beginning of the thousand years instead? The great white throne judgment is clearly after the thousand years, not prior to it or during it instead.
How can Daniel 7:9-11 not refer to judgment day which is also portrayed in Rev 20:11-15 and Matt 25:31-46?

Look at Daniel 7:9-10 and compare it to Rev 20:11-12. How can they not be referring to the same thing?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

If these aren't referring to the same thing then how can we ever determine if any 2 separate passages of scripture refer to the same thing?

What Daniel saw in Daniel 7 was not all in chronological order. Judgment day is described in Daniel 7:9-11 and Christ's ascension to heaven is described in Daniel 7:13-14.
 
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That's pretty much how I understand Daniel 7:12 myself. If Daniel 7:9-11 involves what happens in the end of this age, why wouldn't Daniel 7:12 also involve what happens in the end of this age? Further proof that the great white throne judgment can't be meant in Daniel 7:9-11, because it makes nonsense out of verse 12 if that is the case. There are no lives being prolonged for a season and time, after the great white throne judgment. But there would be before the time of that judgment. And if Daniel 7:9-12 involve events that pertain to the 2nd coming in the end of this age, how can anything other than the thousand years and satan's little season possibly explain verse 12?
Daniel 7:12 is just a parenthetical statement to give info about what had happened to the rest of the beasts who came before the final beast. What beasts would come after the beast mentioned in Daniel 7:11 if that is meant to be understood as the same beast mentioned in Rev 19:20?
 
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DavidPT

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Daniel 7:12 is just a parenthetical statement to give info about what had happened to the rest of the beasts who came before the final beast. What beasts would come after the beast mentioned in Daniel 7:11 if that is meant to be understood as the same beast mentioned in Rev 19:20?


Why would we need to know that after we see that the little horn beast is given to the burning flame? You are obviously not thinking through some of these things in the same manner I am. And the reason for that is, you are Amil, and that none of this can possibly work with Amil if I am correct about any or all of what I submit below. I'm not claiming you don't think through things, clearly you do, I'm just pointing out that because you are Amil none of what I submit below is even going to make any sense to you since it contradicts Amil if I am correct about any of these things.

Here's what the text says.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


The text seems to indicate that the timing of verse 12 is meaning during the timing of verse 11.


Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

If there is no one left but obeying immortal saints as of the fulfillment of Daniel 7:11, why does this verse say dominion shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, and all dominions shall serve and obey him?

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time---dominion shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

Why wouldn't the rest of the beasts be any of the dominions that shall serve and obey him? Meaning after they have their dominion taken away, yet have their lives prolonged for a season and a time? Someone has to fulfill verse 27, so why not them? How can Daniel 7:27 be meaning prior to the fulfillment of Daniel 7:11, rather than post it's fulfillment?

Obviously, until the little horn beast is destroyed first, and that the rest of the beasts have their dominion taken away, yet their lives are prolonged for a season and a time, there is no way in a million years dominion has already been given to the people of the saints of the most High in the meantime, and that all dominions are already serving and obeying him.

In order to even make any sense out of some of Daniel 7 there has to be a period of time after the 2nd coming, but prior to the great white throne judgment. The text plainly says all dominions, not dominion, but dominions, not just some dominions, all dominions, shall serve and obey him. Sounds like ruling them with a rod of iron to me.
 
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Why would we need to know that after we see that the little horn beast is given to the burning flame? You are obviously not thinking through some of these things in the same manner I am. And the reason for that is, you are Amil, and that none of this can possibly work with Amil if I am correct about any or all of what I submit below. I'm not claiming you don't think through things, clearly you do, I'm just pointing out that because you are Amil none of what I submit below is even going to make any sense to you since it contradicts Amil if I am correct about any of these things.

Here's what the text says.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


The text seems to indicate that the timing of verse 12 is meaning during the timing of verse 11.


Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

If there is no one left but obeying immortal saints as of the fulfillment of Daniel 7:11, why does this verse say dominion shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, and all dominions shall serve and obey him?

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time---dominion shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

Why wouldn't the rest of the beasts be any of the dominions that shall serve and obey him? Meaning after they have their dominion taken away, yet have their lives prolonged for a season and a time? Someone has to fulfill verse 27, so why not them? How can Daniel 7:27 be meaning prior to the fulfillment of Daniel 7:11, rather than post it's fulfillment?

Obviously, until the little horn beast is destroyed first, and that the rest of the beasts have their dominion taken away, yet their lives are prolonged for a season and a time, there is no way in a million years dominion has already been given to the people of the saints of the most High in the meantime, and that all dominions are already serving and obeying him.

In order to even make any sense out of some of Daniel 7 there has to be a period of time after the 2nd coming, but prior to the great white throne judgment.
Who do you think the rest of the beasts are? Daniel 7:7 indicates that they would exist before the fourth beast. Many see them as referring to the ancient Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires and I would agree with that. The fourth beast corresponds to the Roman empire. They correspond to the four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 2. Daniel himself told Nebuchadnezzar that his kingdom of Babylon was the first kingdom represented in his dream.

If there were going to be beasts (empires, kingdoms) on the earth during a thousand year period after the second coming of Christ then where is that ever mentioned in the book of Revelation? Doesn't it make sense that if such a thing was going to occur then it would be alluded to there?

I would like to know your thoughts on what I said in post #4. How exactly can Daniel 7:9-11 be referring to something different than Revelation 20:11-15?
 
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Who do you think the rest of the beasts are? Daniel 7:7 indicates that they would exist before the fourth beast. Many see them as referring to the ancient Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires and I would agree with that. The fourth beast corresponds to the Roman empire.


Did the ancient Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires continue to exist after the fall of Rome? Because in the text, the first 3 beasts still exist past the destruction of the 4th beast. I think this rules out all the kingdoms you just mentioned.




If there were going to be beasts (empires, kingdoms) on the earth during a thousand year period after the second coming of Christ then where is that ever mentioned in the book of Revelation?

This is mentioned twice. One in Revelation 2 and once again in Revelation 19. After the beasts and the army is destroyed in Revelation 19, the governments/kingdoms of the unsaved are broken up which leaves them ready to be ruled over for that thousand years:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.
 
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Did the ancient Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires continue to exist after the fall of Rome? Because in the text, the first 3 beasts still exist past the destruction of the 4th beast. I think this rules out all the kingdoms you just mentioned.
As I said in another post, Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse and is not meant to describe something happening after what is described in Daniel 7:9-11. You are not recognizing that and that's why you assume the first 3 beasts still exist past the destruction of the 4th beast. They were successive kingdoms and each had their dominion taken away (the Babylonian empire was the first to have its dominion taken away) and were then replaced by another empire.

This is mentioned twice. One in Revelation 2 and once again in Revelation 19. After the beasts and the army is destroyed in Revelation 19, the governments/kingdoms of the unsaved are broken up which leaves them ready to be ruled over for that thousand years:
There is no mention of other beasts in those passages. This is quite a stretch.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.
The context of Him ruling with a rod of iron is clearly shown in Revelation 19:15. It has to do with Him utterly destroying them as the references to Him smiting the nations and treading them in the winepress of God's wrath clearly illustrate.

It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.
It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and after the second coming without taking ALL of scripture into account.

Your interpretations of passages in the book of Revelation contradict many other passages of scripture. Such as 2 Peter 3:3-13. That passage makes it quite clear that the earth will be burned up when Christ returns. Yet, you have mortal people somehow surviving that. Why not find a way for Rev 19 to agree with 2 Peter 3 instead of completely contradicting it?
 
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As I said in another post, Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse and is not meant to describe something happening after what is described in Daniel 7:9-11. You are not recognizing that and that's why you assume the first 3 beasts still exist past the destruction of the 4th beast.

It's not a parenthetical verse. It clearly says the other beasts have their lives prolonged after the 4th beast is destroyed:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



They were successive kingdoms and each had their dominion taken away (the Babylonian empire was the first to have its dominion taken away) and were then replaced by another empire.

None of those kingdoms still lived past the fall of Rome so it's not speaking of those kingdoms.



Thank you for making that point for the thousandth time. I still disagree. The context of Him ruling with a rod of iron is clearly shown in Revelation 19:15. It has to do with Him utterly destroying them as the references to Him smiting the nations and treading them in the winepress of God's wrath clearly illustrate.

That ignores the fact that the ruling of the nations is future tense to the destructions and deaths at Armageddon.


Your interpretations of passages in the book of Revelation contradict many other passages of scripture.

That is incorrect. I have already proven that the nations are alive and well and being ruled over after Armageddon using Revelation 2 and 19. Amill simply ignores the future tense verbs for the ruling in those chapters.


Such as 2 Peter 3:3-13. That passage makes it quite clear that the earth will be burned up when Christ returns. Yet, you have mortal people somehow surviving that. Why not find a way for Rev 19 to agree with 2 Peter 3 instead of completely contradicting it?

There is no contradiction. You are simply wrong that 2 Peter 3 says fire destroys the world and everyone on it at the second coming. None of that happens at the second coming and no second coming passage from any book of the bible has that global fire happening at that time.
 
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It's not a parenthetical verse. It clearly says the other beasts have their lives prolonged after the 4th beast is destroyed:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
No, it does not say that. You are assuming that because you are assuming that what is described in verse 12 takes place after what is described in verses 9-11. But, that is not the case. In Daniel 7:13-14, Daniel was given a vision of the ascension of Christ to heaven, so it should be clear that not everything written in Daniel 7 was in chronological order.

That ignores the fact that the ruling of the nations is future tense to the destructions and deaths at Armageddon.
What "fact"? Here's another person trying to claim that his OPINION is a fact. Other scripture makes it abundantly clear that the destruction that will happen when Christ returns will be global and will not leave any mortal survivors. This includes 2 Peter 3:3-13, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and Rev 19:11-21. It seems to me that you are the one doing the ignoring here.

That is incorrect. I have already proven that the nations are alive and well and being ruled over after Armageddon using Revelation 2 and 19. Amill simply ignores the future tense verbs for the ruling in those chapters.
You haven't proven anything except that you are willing to interpret passages in Revelation in such a way that contradicts other passages of scripture.

There is no contradiction. You are simply wrong that 2 Peter 3 says fire destroys the world and everyone on it at the second coming. None of that happens at the second coming and no second coming passage from any book of the bible has that global fire happening at that time.
Then please show me exactly how you interpret 2 Peter 3. Do you agree that verses 3 and 4 establish the context that what Peter wrote about relates to Christ's second coming? How do you interpret verses 5-7?
 
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DavidPT

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No, it does not say that. You are assuming that because you are assuming that what is described in verse 12 takes place after what is described in verses 9-11. But, that is not the case. In Daniel 7:13-14, Daniel was given a vision of the ascension of Christ to heaven, so it should be clear that not everything written in Daniel 7 was in chronological order.


Speaking of parenthetical and not in chronological order, I do see Daniel 7:13-14 as parethetical rather than taking place during the time period Daniel 7:9-11 is taking place, thus not in chronological order. Which means that I agree with you that Daniel 7:13-14 is meaning the ascension. Based on that, that could mean the same about verse 12 as well, that it's not meaning when verses 9-11 are meaning. I at least comprehend your argument and acknowledge it's a valid argument. But this still ignores what I previously argued in regards to verrse 27. That verse indicates all dominions shall serve and obey serve him. That could not possibly already be the case, since it is nonsensical, if one is to believe Revelation 13, for example, that when all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8), that this is the same thing as all dominions shall serve and obey him(Daniel 7:27). No reasonble person would conclude something such as that.

How can anyone not see that all dominions cannot serve and obey him until first the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever(Revelation 11:15)---is fulfilled first? That doesn't even happen until the 7th trumpet sounds first. The beast being cast alive into the LOF doesn't even happen until after the 7th trumpet has sounded first. The 2nd coming does not even happen until the 7th trumpet sounds first. Daniel 7:9-11 can't happen until after the 7th trumpet has sounded first. And neither can Daniel 7:27 happen until after the 7th trumpet has happened first. That means there are dominions needed in order to fulfill the serving and obeying of him in that verse.

Daniel 7:12 solves that problem, the fact they are not also given to the burning flame at the time, otherwise it would have stated they were. But instead, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time(which makes them surviving mortals)--that is what the text plainly says. The following shows what happens to them when the time of their prolonged lives is up----Revelation 20:9---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them---followed by Revelation 20:11-15.
 
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Speaking of parenthetical and not in chronological order, I do see Daniel 7:13-14 as parethetical rather than taking place during the time period Daniel 7:9-11 is taking place, thus not in chronological order. Which means that I agree with you that Daniel 7:13-14 is meaning the ascension. Based on that, that could mean the same about verse 12 as well, that it's not meaning when verses 9-11 are meaning. I at least comprehend your argument and acknowledge it's a valid argument.
I appreciate that and give you credit for acknowledging that.

But this still ignores what I previously argued in regards to verrse 27. That verse indicates all dominions shall serve and obey serve him. That could not possibly already be the case, since it is nonsensical, if one is to believe Revelation 13, for example, that when all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8), that this is the same thing as all dominions shall serve and obey him(Daniel 7:27). No reasonble person would conclude something such as that.
What now? You lost me here. Can you explain what point you were trying to make here?

How can anyone not see that all dominions cannot serve and obey him until first the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever(Revelation 11:15)---is fulfilled first? That doesn't even happen until the 7th trumpet sounds first. The beast being cast alive into the LOF doesn't even happen until after the 7th trumpet has sounded first. The 2nd coming does not even happen until the 7th trumpet sounds first.
Right, I agree that His second coming happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. So far, I'm not seeing what your point is, but I'll keep reading.

Daniel 7:9-11 can't happen until after the 7th trumpet has sounded first. And neither can Daniel 7:27 happen until after the 7th trumpet has happened first. That means there are dominions needed in order to fulfill the serving and obeying of him in that verse. Daniel 7:12 solves that problem, the fact they are not also given to the burning flame at the time, otherwise it would have stated they were. But instead, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time--that is what the text plainly says.
But, who would these beasts be then (if not historical world empires, as I believe) and where are they mentioned in the book of Revelation? I see the first beast and second beast (false prophet) mentioned there, but not these other beasts.

As for all dominions serving and obeying Him, that simply means that everyone on the new earth will serve and obey Him at that time. There's no reason to read any more into it than that. Unbelievers, on the other hand, will all be in the lake of fire.

If Daniel 7:27 was referring to mortals serving and obeying Him after He returns then who exactly would they be and what would allow them to survive His vengeance and wrath against those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:7-10)?
 
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ewq1938

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No, it does not say that. You are assuming that because you are assuming that what is described in verse 12 takes place after what is described in verses 9-11. But, that is not the case.

It is the case. We are told about the fate of the 4th beast and after that we are told about the fate of the other beasts.

Other scripture makes it abundantly clear that the destruction that will happen when Christ returns will be global and will not leave any mortal survivors. This includes 2 Peter 3:3-13, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and Rev 19:11-21. It seems to me that you are the one doing the ignoring here.

None of those passages have the world being destroyed by fire at the second coming.



Then please show me exactly how you interpret 2 Peter 3. Do you agree that verses 3 and 4 establish the context that what Peter wrote about relates to Christ's second coming? How do you interpret verses 5-7?

I have this saved in my notes on that passage:

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world in general does not believe God is coming to make changes to this world. They believe it will continue like it has been since the beginning. These people also have no understanding of a "second coming". They simply deny that God will come at all to punish them. From a Christian's perspective this starts with the second coming and the destruction of the Beast's rule over this world which includes destruction of his army which enabled and enforced that global rule. That leaves the world ready to be ruled by Christ and His heavenly army of angels and immortal saints, leaving the nations unable and unwilling to resist a new rule. Eventually Satan will be released and God will destroy this last rebellion and cast Satan and the unrighteous into the LOF and that's when the biggest change to this world and the Heavens begins, found in Revelation 21. Peter will start discussing that in the next verses:


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is a reference to the day of the GWTJ and the LOF and not the second coming. The second coming involved the resurrection of the dead in Christ and judgment of the righteous. The above verse speaks of the judgment of the unrighteous who will all be dead then will be resurrected to be judged and then sentenced to perish ie: the LOF second death.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is commonly mistaken for being the second coming but it is a different "day of the Lord". A quick search of the bible will reveal that many different days of the Lord, sometimes called the day of the Lord, other times we see the day of the Lord Jesus, and sometimes "the day of God". A day of the Lord/God is a day when something big/important happens. It is not only the second coming which comes like a thief in the night. The day of the GWTJ will also come as a thief in the night ie: unexpectedly to those who are blind and in darkness.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here "the day of God" is used and it refers to the GWTJ which is long after the second coming is completed. The GWTJ does not happen at or during the second coming. It is a separate and different day altogether. Once the judging and punishing is finished, then will the NHNE arrive and the spiritual dissolving and melting of the former Earth and Heavens which is likely referring to the evil aspects of each rather than the literal Heaven and literal Earth burning literally.

We can be sure the burning and melting of the Earth and Heaven does not happen at the second coming because no second coming passage has any of that happening thus it is a misinterpretation to think the above verses about that fire are related to the second coming.
 
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Who do you think the rest of the beasts are?


The following are my own conclusions. I didn't borrow them from someone else. So if I am wrong about any of this, I can't blame it on anyone but myself.

If we do some comparing of some of Daniel 7 with that of some of Revelation 13, this is what it could mean in regards to who are the rest of the beasts.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

First let's add up how many heads this amounts to.

Verse 4 consists of 1 head.
Verse 5 consists of 1 head.
Verse 6 consists of 4 heads.
Verse 7 consists of 1 head.

That equals 7 heads altogether. If verse 4, 5 and 7 consisted of having more than 1 head, those verses would have said so, the same way it said so in verse 6, thus why we know only 1 head is meant per each of those verses. So where else have we heard of a 7 headed beast? In Revelation 12 and 13 for one.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard---compare with Daniel 7:6. That makes the one like unto a leapord(Revelation 13:2), be meaning 4 of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1, of it's 7 heads.

and his feet were as the feet of a bear---compare with Daniel 7:5. That makes the one--and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Revelation 13:2), be meaning 1 of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1, of it's 7 heads, totaling 5 now.

and his mouth as the mouth of a lion---compare with Daniel 7:4. That makes the one--and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Revelation 13:2), be meaning 1 of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1, of it's 7 heads, totaling 6 now.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death--- thus far we only have 6 heads accounted for. Obviously then, or at least to me, this is meaning the 4th beast, Daniel 7:7. And since Daniel 7:7 indicates that the 4th beast had 10 horns, now we know which head in Revelation 13 the 10 horns are upon. They are upon the 4th beast, meaning the head as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed.

If Daniel 7 also involves a 7 headed beast, that according to Revelation 13 for one, in Daniel 7 we only see the beast involving the head with a deadly wound that was healed, being given to the burning flame. The fact the beast has 7 heads, it could still be alive even if one of it's heads is severed for forever. If the beast only had one head, and that that happened to it, the same would not be true. Even though there is no such thing as a 7 headed dragon, it still stands to reason, that to fully defeat a 7 headed dragon, one must cutoff all 7 heads, and not just one of them only.

In Daniel 7:9-11 only one of it's heads get cutoff, signified by being given to the burning flames. The rest of it's heads according to Daniel 7:12, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time.
 
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It is the case. We are told about the fate of the 4th beast and after that we are told about the fate of the other beasts.



None of those passages have the world being destroyed by fire at the second coming.





I have this saved in my notes on that passage:

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world in general does not believe God is coming to make changes to this world. They believe it will continue like it has been since the beginning. These people also have no understanding of a "second coming". They simply deny that God will come at all to punish them. From a Christian's perspective this starts with the second coming and the destruction of the Beast's rule over this world which includes destruction of his army which enabled and enforced that global rule. That leaves the world ready to be ruled by Christ and His heavenly army of angels and immortal saints, leaving the nations unable and unwilling to resist a new rule. Eventually Satan will be released and God will destroy this last rebellion and cast Satan and the unrighteous into the LOF and that's when the biggest change to this world and the Heavens begins, found in Revelation 21. Peter will start discussing that in the next verses:


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is a reference to the day of the GWTJ and the LOF and not the second coming. The second coming involved the resurrection of the dead in Christ and judgment of the righteous. The above verse speaks of the judgment of the unrighteous who will all be dead then will be resurrected to be judged and then sentenced to perish ie: the LOF second death.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is commonly mistaken for being the second coming but it is a different "day of the Lord". A quick search of the bible will reveal that many different days of the Lord, sometimes called the day of the Lord, other times we see the day of the Lord Jesus, and sometimes "the day of God". A day of the Lord/God is a day when something big/important happens. It is not only the second coming which comes like a thief in the night. The day of the GWTJ will also come as a thief in the night ie: unexpectedly to those who are blind and in darkness.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here "the day of God" is used and it refers to the GWTJ which is long after the second coming is completed. The GWTJ does not happen at or during the second coming. It is a separate and different day altogether. Once the judging and punishing is finished, then will the NHNE arrive and the spiritual dissolving and melting of the former Earth and Heavens which is likely referring to the evil aspects of each rather than the literal Heaven and literal Earth burning literally.

We can be sure the burning and melting of the Earth and Heaven does not happen at the second coming because no second coming passage has any of that happening thus it is a misinterpretation to think the above verses about that fire are related to the second coming.
It is incredible to me to see anyone deny that 2 Peter 3:3-13 relates to the second coming of Christ. What other coming of the Lord could the scoffers be scoffing at except for the second coming of Christ? You say they don't have any understanding of a second coming? Yes, they do. Many unbelievers know what we, as Christians, believe and they scoff at it. That's happening more and more as time goes on.

What Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3 is the same thing Jesus talked about here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This passage is clearly about the second coming of Christ. Like Peter, Jesus indicated that heaven and earth would pass away when it happens. Like Peter, Jesus indicated that scope of the destruction that will occur at His coming would be like the global flood of Noah's day. You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture here. It's very clear that Peter was writing about the second coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3. Only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that.
 
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The following are my own conclusions. I didn't borrow them from someone else. So if I am wrong about any of this, I can't blame it on anyone but myself.

If we do some comparing of some of Daniel 7 with that of some of Revelation 13, this is what it could mean in regards to who are the rest of the beasts.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

First let's add up how many heads this amounts to.

Verse 4 consists of 1 head.
Verse 5 consists of 1 head.
Verse 6 consists of 4 heads.
Verse 7 consists of 1 head.

That equals 7 heads altogether. If verse 4, 5 and 7 consisted of having more than 1 head, those verses would have said so, the same way it said so in verse 6, thus why we know only 1 head is meant per each of those verses. So where else have we heard of a 7 headed beast? In Revelation 12 and 13 for one.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard---compare with Daniel 7:6. That makes the one like unto a leapord(Revelation 13:2), be meaning 4 of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1, of it's 7 heads.

and his feet were as the feet of a bear---compare with Daniel 7:5. That makes the one--and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Revelation 13:2), be meaning 1 of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1, of it's 7 heads, totaling 5 now.

and his mouth as the mouth of a lion---compare with Daniel 7:4. That makes the one--and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Revelation 13:2), be meaning 1 of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1, of it's 7 heads, totaling 6 now.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death--- thus far we only have 6 heads accounted for. Obviously then, or at least to me, this is meaning the 4th beast, Daniel 7:7. And since Daniel 7:7 indicates that the 4th beast had 10 horns, now we know which head in Revelation 13 the 10 horns are upon. They are upon the 4th beast, meaning the head as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed.

If Daniel 7 also involves a 7 headed beast, that according to Revelation 13 for one, in Daniel 7 we only see the beast involving the head with a deadly wound that was healed, being given to the burning flame. The fact the beast has 7 heads, it could still be alive even if one of it's heads is severed for forever. If the beast only had one head, and that that happened to it, the same would not be true. Even though there is no such thing as a 7 headed dragon, it still stands to reason, that to fully defeat a 7 headed dragon, one must cutoff all 7 heads, and not just one of them only.

In Daniel 7:9-11 only one of it's heads get cutoff, signified by being given to the burning flames. The rest of it's heads according to Daniel 7:12, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time.
I'm sorry, but I can't make any sense out of what you said here. For some reason you are equating heads of the beast with the beasts themselves. That does not make any sense. The following verse shows that the first 3 beasts existed before the fourth beast came on the scene, so it simply does not make sense to think that all four beasts were or would be in power at the same time.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
 
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ewq1938

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It is incredible to me to see anyone deny that 2 Peter 3:3-13 relates to the second coming of Christ. What other coming of the Lord could the scoffers be scoffing at except for the second coming of Christ?

Like many other passages of scripture, the second coming is mentioned then other things are mentioned. We can't just force things related to other events and force them into the second coming. As I said, no second coming passage ever mentions the world on fire so obviously 2 Peter 3 is being misinterpreted. The second coming has vials of wrath and plagues and a symbolic sword etc but fire is not used against the enemy nor the Earth.



Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This passage is clearly about the second coming of Christ. Like Peter, Jesus indicated that heaven and earth would pass away when it happens. Like Peter, Jesus indicated that scope of the destruction that will occur at His coming would be like the global flood of Noah's day. You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture here. It's very clear that Peter was writing about the second coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3. Only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that.

The flood wasn't global but that doesn't even need to be debated because the story of Lot is also used along with the flood and no one can say God killed everyone but Lot's family:

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Was there a global slaughter when this happened? No. A localized area and certain citi4es were destroyed. The rest of the wicked through the world survived and weren't even in danger of being killed.

That is what will happen the day of the second coming. The two beasts and their army will be destroyed and Satan will be imprisoned. The rest of the wicked through the world survived and weren't even in danger of being killed. These would be the common peoples, the civilians, non-military, non-leaders and non-authorities. These are the ones ruled over written using a future tense verb in both Revelation 2 and 19 and that ruling timeframe found in Revelation 20.
 
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Like many other passages of scripture, the second coming is mentioned then other things are mentioned. We can't just force things related to other events and force them into the second coming. As I said, no second coming passage ever mentions the world on fire so obviously 2 Peter 3 is being misinterpreted. The second coming has vials of wrath and plagues and a symbolic sword etc but fire is not used against the enemy nor the Earth.

The flood wasn't global but that doesn't even need to be debated because the story of Lot is also used along with the flood and no one can say God killed everyone but Lot's family:

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Was there a global slaughter when this happened? No. A localized area and certain citi4es were destroyed. The rest of the wicked through the world survived and weren't even in danger of being killed.

That is what will happen the day of the second coming. The two beasts and their army will be destroyed and Satan will be imprisoned. The rest of the wicked through the world survived and weren't even in danger of being killed. These would be the common peoples, the civilians, non-military, non-leaders and non-authorities. These are the ones ruled over written using a future tense verb in both Revelation 2 and 19 and that ruling timeframe found in Revelation 20.
You saying that the flood wasn't global tells us all we need to know about how you interpret scripture.

Christ's point about comparing it to the global flood of Noah's day and pointing out that it killed them all was to indicate the scope of the destruction when He returns. His return is very clearly going to be a global event rather than a local one. His point with comparing it to Lot's day was also to illustrate that the scope of the destruction would be total, but also that it would be by way of fire and brimstone just like it happened in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Also, you are apparently not reading Revelation 19 carefully enough. You try to say that only "the two beasts and their army" will be destroyed, but John described more than just them being destroyed at Christ's return.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

It's the last part that I bolded which you seem to overlook for some reason. Notice that it isn't just the kings, captains and mighty men that will be destroyed, but also "all men, both free and bond, both small and great". All unbelievers will be destroyed, whether free or bond, small or great. Just as is indicated in passages like 2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Thess 5:1-6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and Matt 24:35-39. What basis is there for thinking any of Christ's enemies will survive His coming? Why would they be allowed to survive?
 
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You saying that the flood wasn't global tells us all we need to know about how you interpret scripture.

You should be able to disagree with me without being insulting. Sure, a global flood is the common interpretation but it isn't the only one. Even some of the giants were alive after the flood and no, they weren't on the Ark.

Num_13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Christ's point about comparing it to the global flood of Noah's day and pointing out that it killed them all was to indicate the scope of the destruction when He returns. His return is very clearly going to be a global event rather than a local one. His point with comparing it to Lot's day was also to illustrate that the scope of the destruction would be total, but also that it would be by way of fire and brimstone just like it happened in Sodom and Gomorrah.

And in the story of Lot it was not a global killing, which is the same as the flood. Both stories are used because both teach the same exact thing. God kills SOME of the wicked and spares some. That is exactly what we find in Revelation 2 and 19 where we are told that some will be ruled over after the events of the second coming. There is no getting around that fact. No scripture contradicts those passages nor the stories of the flood and Lot.



Also, you are apparently not reading Revelation 19 carefully enough. You try to say that only "the two beasts and their army" will be destroyed, but John described more than just them being destroyed at Christ's return.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

That is only speaking of all of the army not all of the world's people because in the same chapter the ruling is written in the future tense proving it occurs after Armageddon.



It's the last part that I bolded which you seem to overlook for some reason. Notice that it isn't just the kings, captains and mighty men that will be destroyed, but also "all men, both free and bond, both small and great". All unbelievers will be destroyed, whether free or bond, small or great. Just as is indicated in passages like 2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Thess 5:1-6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and Matt 24:35-39. What basis is there for thinking any of Christ's enemies will survive His coming? Why would they be allowed to survive?

To be ruled over by Christ and the saints without Satan able to deceive them. That way they can hear the gospel without Satan's deceptions and decide to accept it or not. It's similar to the Amill Millennium where it's a time for the gospel to reach the nations and for people to be saved. We just believe that happens after the second coming rather than before it.
 
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