The Judge Is Standing At The Door

Mr. M

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James 5:
8
You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
or, the presence of the Lord
The understanding of this is obscured by the tendency of translators to use the
expression "the coming of the Lord", as if he is referring to the second coming.
parousia [G3952] means to be near, but is only occasionally translated "presence".

9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged;
behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

When you are upset with someone, be sure you don't speak about them
behind their back.
Do you see what James did here?


Genesis 4:
6
The Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well,
sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you,
but you must rule over it.

His presence is with us always.
There is no talking about others behind their back.
Your sin is at the door, and so is The Judge.


Matthew 28:20. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
 
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Clare73

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James 5:
8
You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
or, the presence of the Lord
The understanding of this is obscured by the tendency of translators to use the
expression "the coming of the Lord", as if he is referring to the second coming.
parousia [G3952] means to be near, but is only occasionally translated "presence".
Parousia also means "visit, arrival," and refers to citizens going out out of the city to greet an incoming dignitary on an official visit to the city, accompanying him back into the city.

In the NT, it means the second coming of the Lord where the elect will go out (rise) to meet him in the air, accompanying him back to earth, which is why translators translate it as the second coming.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged;
behold, the Judge is standing at the door.
The Judge is Jesus who is coming soon in his parousia (official journey) to judge the world.
When you are upset with someone, be sure you don't speak about them
behind their back.
Do you see what James did here?


Genesis 4:
6
The Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well,
sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you,
but you must rule over it.

His presence is with us always.
There is no talking about others behind their back.
Your sin is at the door, and so is The Judge.


Matthew 28:20. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
 
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Mr. M

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Parousia also means "visit, arrival," and refers to citizens going out out of the city to greet an incoming dignitary on an official visit to the city, accompanying him back to the city.

In the NT, it means the second coming of the Lord where the elect will go out (rise) to meet him in the air, accompanying him back to earth, which is why translators translate it as the second coming.

The Judge is Jesus who is coming soon in his parousia (official journey) to judge the world.
I am sure there is no doubt who James is referring to as The Judge.
Could you explain how you are applying this use of parousia to the statement James makes?
I am well aware and acknowledge that the word is frequently used to refer to the Lord's
return. The point I am making is that grumbling against a fellow believer is done
"in His presence". We are warned that grumbling, murmuring and complaining are an
offense to the Lord.
What you have posted is interesting, "nice to know" information. However, the point
of the OP is that grumbling is a temptation towards sin, if not an offense in itself.

Do you see what James did here?

Here is an example of parousia being used by Paul:
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
His presence is with us always.
There is no talking about others behind their back.
Your sin is at the door, and so is The Judge.


Matthew 28:20. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

The admonition of the OP is to be aware that words and actions are done in full
awareness of the Judge, who is "at the door", even as sin is "crouching there"
when believers give a place for the devil by complaining.


G3952 - parousia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
 
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Kenny'sID

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When you are upset with someone, be sure you don't speak about them
behind their back.
Do you see what James did here?

Seems to me the scripture is more about the grumbling than it is talking about someone behind their back.

I can think of a few instances where talking about someone behind there back may be necessary, or done in order to do good, or help someone.
 
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Mr. M

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Seems to me the scripture is more about the grumbling than it is talking about someone behind their back.

I can think of a few instances where talking about someone behind there back may be necessary, or done in order to do good, or help someone.
I see your point. That must not be what James is addressing, because he is warning not to do
it. I admit, it is not necessary to interpret as "behind their back", as the grumbling could be
directed at them before witnesses. This should be done with meekness.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such
an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
 
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if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

the garden, the tree, the rib, and the women are in picture the same truth ... they are a portrayal of our soul which is a door we go in and out of ... until He causes us to remain ... it is a law being written in us ...
 
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Clare73

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I am sure there is no doubt who James is referring to as The Judge.
Could you explain how you are applying this use of parousia to the statement James makes?
Well, as you know, the NT Christians believed Jesus would return in their lifetime for the final judgment.

The
"presence of the Lord has drawn near" (is at hand, close, but not yet here)--James 5:8
James is speaking of a future presence, not the current presence of which you speak.

That makes the near future (as they believed) "presence" to be in the "visit of official digni
tary, where the citizens go out to accompany him back into the city" as the intended use of parousia in James 5:8, rather than current "presence."

James is using that near-future "presence" and judgment as warning against sin of grumbling.
I am well aware and acknowledge that the word is frequently used to refer to the Lord's return. The point I am making is that grumbling against a fellow believer is done "in His presence". We are warned that grumbling, murmuring and complaining are an offense to the Lord.
What you have posted is interesting, "nice to know" information. However, the point
of the OP is that grumbling is a temptation towards sin, if not an offense in itself.
Agreed. . .all true, but the presence James' is referring to here is near future. . .warning against an offense/sin in light of that near future presence of Jesus'; i.e., in his imminent return/second coming for judgment.
Here is an example of parousia being used by Paul:
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
But note, Paul is not referring to a (near) future presence "at hand" (i.e., near), but to a (his) past presence. It is the "at hand" in James 5:8 that indicates which meaning of parousia is meant there.
The admonition of the OP is to be aware that words and actions are done in full awareness of the Judge, who is "at the door", even as sin is "crouching there"
when believers give a place for the devil by complaining.
Couldn't agree more. . .our issue here is not sin, our issue here is to which presence of Jesus is
James 5:8 referring.
 
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Mr. M

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Well, as you know, the NT Christians believed Jesus would return in their lifetime for the final judgment.
What I know is that was how they were instructed to live their life.
The "presence of the Lord has drawn near" (is at hand, close, but not yet here)--James 5:8
James is speaking of a future presence, not the current presence of which you speak.
No, he says that He is "at the door", in the same way that God warned Cain that is where sin lies,
ever present. Grumbling against a brother can and does destroy fellowship now. The scriptures do not
say that Jesus will deal with that when He returns. He is ever present to correct this error now,
by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.

Couldn't agree more. . .our issue here is not sin, our issue here is to which presence of Jesus is
James 5:8 referring.
I disagree. Grumbling against a brother is sin. For the saints, knowing the good
we ought to do and not doing it is sin. James 4:17
 
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Clare73

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What I know is that was how they were instructed to live their life.

No, he says that He is "at the door",
Not in the Greek text. It states; he is "near" or "at hand."
in the same way that God warned Cain that is where sin lies,
ever present. Grumbling against a brother can and does destroy fellowship now.
The scriptures do not say that Jesus will deal with that when He returns.
James is reminding them Jesus' return to judge sin is "at hand" or "near."
James is not referring to correction there, he is referring to imminent judgment.
He is ever present to correct this error now, by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.
Indeed, he is.
I disagree. Grumbling against a brother is sin. For the saints, knowing the good
we ought to do and not doing it is sin. James 4:17
By "our issue," I mean our point of discussion, the thing we are talking about--which meaning of parousia is James using in his warning of sin.
 
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Mr. M

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Not in the Greek text. It states; he is "near" or "at hand."
You are stuck at verse 8. Could you please include verse 9, since the OP does, and you
would not feel the need to correct me.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged;
behold, the Judge is standing at the door.
Maybe re-read the entire OP. There is more here than 'parousia'.
 
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Mr. M

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By "our issue," I mean our point of discussion, the thing we are talking about, is; which meaning of parousia is James using in his warning of sin.
Put the two verses together, where they belong, and use presence.
Young's literal

James 5:
8
be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh;
9 murmur not against one another, brethren, that ye may not be condemned; lo, the Judge
before the door hath stood.
 
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Clare73

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You are stuck at verse 8. Could you please include verse 9, since the OP does, and you would not feel the need to correct me.

Maybe re-read the entire OP.
"Standing at the door," of verse 9, means nearby, no entrance has been made, he has not yet arrived
in our presence; i.e., he is not yet here, he is nigh (near, close at hand, but not here).
There is more here than 'parousia'.
Indeed, there is! And it is very insightful.

I'm sorry if demonstration of your instruction, regarding the meaning of parousia in James 5:8,
as inaccurate was not agreeable to you.
 
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Mr. M

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I'm sorry if demonstrating that your instruction regarding the meaning of parousia in James 5:8 was inaccurate was not agreeable to you.
Nothing wrong with the accuracy of my understanding of parousia.
I gave you Young's translation of the verses.

If you think you are going to hound me into agreeing with you and offering false apologies,
you should think again. The discussion being unfruitful due to your lack of attention to detail or awareness even of the forum you are in has again made you tedious. Please move on.
 
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