WHAT IS THE REAL GOSPEL?

Nathan@work said:

I am not agreeing with you exactly. There are two rests, from two works, spoken about in the first part of Hebrews. That is what my post was about.

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How is that disagreeing with what was posted in post # 587 linked? It is exactly what I posted. There are two rests. (1). Our rest of believing and following Gods Word (the gospel rest) *Hebrews 4:1-3 and (2). Gods' rest that those who believe and follow Gods' Word enter into by faith which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest *Hebrews 4:1-5; 9-12.

Nathan@work said:

As far as 'entering' God's rest, it is very simple - we rest from our work as God did His. This rest is done through Faith.

We shouldn't separate Hebrews chapter 4 from the previous chapter. It tells us exactly why Israel did not enter His rest. Chapter 4 goes on to explain in detail the rest He has provided, but chapter 3 is why people do not enter.

[Heb 3:18-19 ESV] And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

The 'disobedience' of them was their unbelief. Jesus spoke about this directly also.

[Jhn 6:29-36 ESV] Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

Even as it was with Moses, the people saw the work of God, witnessed His power and love, yet refused to enter His rest because of disbelief. So it is today. However, today is not over and there is still a rest that can be entered by Faith in the Son of God.

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A few points here you may want to consider Nathan. I have not separated Hebrews 4 from Hebrews 3 and agree that Hebrews 4 builds on Hebrews 3. Hebrews 3 is also showing the two rests and that Gods' people did not enter into because of their unbelief and sins. As a result of God's people not believing and following God's Word (the gospel) they could not enter into Gods' rest (see Hebrews 3:8-13; 17-19). So all of this is continued in Hebrews 4:1-5

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into.

The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

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So the two rests are provided here in the scriptures. Our rest through believing and following God's Word and God's rest (the seventh day Sabbath) that those who believe Gods' Word enter into by faith *Hebrews 4:3. If you read your post you say that there are two rests but you have only defined and talked about one rest. As posted earlier the scriptures in Hebrews 4 show two rests. Our rest of believing and following God's Word (the gospel) and Gods' rest which is the seventh day Sabbath.

Hope this is helpful

Nathan@work said:

You should really know by now I will never agree to disagree. Or do you not believe me when I say it?

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It does not make sense to state you will never agree to disagree when two people are in disagreement.

Nathan@work said:

I believe everything God says. What I do not believe is your interpretation of what God means when He says something.

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Yes something you have said a lot in your own words but have been unable prove especially when scripture has been shared with you verbatim (word for word) disagreeing with you. We should be careful (I include myself) that we do not find ourselves in that group that refuse to hear and see Gods' Word because it does not agree with our opinions. Jesus had similar problems in his day when he spoke God's Word quoting from Isaiah 6:9-10 in Matthew 13:15-16. Paul seem to also had the same problem when he was sharing God's Word also quoting Isaiah in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27. Let's both pray we may always be opened to hearing and seeing Gods' Word so that we can believe and follow what God actually says. This is what you were quoting from. What do you think it means?

Nathan@work said:

I have responded to your post #587, I am not sure why you keep bringing that up? Nothing you posted says anything about the weekly Sabbath. The passage in Hebrews does not speak of the weekly Sabbath.

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Really? Where was that, I must have missed it. I did not see that you posted anything in response to post # 587 and neither do I see you have addressed anything in post # 587 accept to say you disagree with it without showing why you disagree with the scriptures shared in this post which of course are God's Words not my words. All I see are your words that are not God's Word disagreeing with Gods' Word without showing why you disagree. So I will respectfully disagree with your claims here.

Nathan@work said:

So please tell me, how do I show you something that simply is not there?

[Heb 3:7-11 ESV] Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'"

How/why did they put God to the test? They did not believe He was going to do what He said He was. They were disbelieving because all they could see was that they were wandering around in the wilderness - having to rely on Him to provide them water and food.

Back in Egypt, they had everything there in front of them. They knew where their food and water were. In the wilderness, they had to rely on God to provide.

The disobedience, that led to their unbelief, that resulted in them not entering His rest - had nothing to do with the law. It had to do with their 'daily' intake - what we now understood was Christ. They were not satisfied with the manna or getting water only from the rock - they wanted to go back to where they were before, even if it meant being slaves again.

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May I ask Nathan are you reading my posts? If you are I do not understand why you have written the above or perhaps you do not know what the two rests are that you claim are in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 that have already been shared with you earlier?

Nathan@work said:

Actually, the two rests spoken of are;

1. The rest from works that He finished before the foundation of the World.

2. The rest of creating that He had on the 7th day of creation.

These two are different.

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Ok you do know this is what I have already shared with you right? Are you agreeing with me now? The two rests are 1. The Gospel rest of believing and following God's Word and God's rest which is the seventh day Sabbath rest of creation that God's people enter into by faith (believing and following Gods Word) *Hebrews 4:1-5; 9-12.

Hello Nathan, It is exactly what you posted. Here is the conversation here..

Nathan@work said: ↑ Actually, the two rests spoken of are;
1. The rest from works that He finished before the foundation of the World.
2. The rest of creating that He had on the 7th day of creation.
These two are different.

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Responded to with...

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Ok you do know this is what I have already shared with you right? Are you agreeing with me now? The two rests are 1. The Gospel rest of believing and following God's Word and God's rest which is the seventh day Sabbath rest of creation that God's people enter into by faith (believing and following Gods Word) *Hebrews 4:1-5; 9-12.

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Your response again...

Nathan@work said:

Yea, so, that is totally not what I posted. Lol I’m thinking you do not read my posts. Maybe it’s a language barrier between us? Do you use a translating program?

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Yes it is called the Spirit of God *John 6:63. Did you want to try explaining yourself further in regards to what you mean? Reading your post to me seems like you are now agreeing with what I already shared with you from the scriptures.

Nathan@work said:

So lets try this, not sure if it will work so good, but I copied/pasted your whole post.

I bolded/underlined your 'response' in which you say you list two rests, but you include two "and".

So with those two "and", you do not just list two rests. Plus, you have a "1." but no "2." See how it can be confusing?

Either way, you add to what Hebrews says. Where does it say "following God's Word"?

Then, on top of all of that, no you are not saying the same thing as what I said. That is fine, but I can assure you that we are for sure not on the same page.

So yes, we either have a language barrier or you are just posting confusing things that do not add up. Unless you doing all of this just to get a rise out of me?

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Nathan are you saying we can believe God without following what God says? That is against the scriptures and the faith of devils according to James in James 2:17-20; 26.

What the OP has covered so far...

QUESTIONS FOR THIS OP (I will link my answers to these question back here to the OP when answered)

Q1. What is the true gospel? (linked)
Q2. Why has God given us His grace for? (linked)
Q3. What is sin (linked)
Q4. What is God's grace for?
Q5. What is the other gospel?
Q6. Can we have Gods' grace without God's law? (pt1); (pt 2 here linked)

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Let's continue on with the last OP question...

Q7. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments) IN THE GOSPEL?

According to the scripture, God's 10 commandments have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. John also agrees with Paul and James when he states that sin is indeed defined as breaking the law or being disobedient to what God's law says. Paul also showing without Christ there is no one righteous before God in Romans 3:10 because all of us have sinned and fall short of God's glory in 3:23 and stand before God guilty "under the law" being condemned by it in Romans 3:19-20.

The religious teachers in the days of Jesus thought that they were righteous in Gods' eyes. Jesus teaching them that it was not those who think they are righteous that he has come to call but sinners to repentance in Matthew 9:12-13 and told them to go and learn what that means. According to Isaiah 42:21 the role of the promised Messiah was to magnify the law and make it honorable and this is exactly what Jesus did. On the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5) Jesus said to the people "For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20). At that time this saying would have been a shock to many as to the people it was the Scribes and Pharisees that were the very example of those who were right in God's eyes and were the ones righteous before God and the ones who were most likely to enter into God's kingdom and here we have Jesus saying no our righteousness needs to exceed what they have.

According to Jesus on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments but inwardly Jesus says they were full of SIN (breaking God's LAW) *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus saying; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20.

Jesus came to magnify God’s 10 commandment from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (applying adultery and murder to our thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil (moral wrong doing) begins in the heart. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart (thoughts and feelings) according to Jesus is what defiles a man in Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28.

Jesus magnified the law to the inside out. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings). That is why we need to be born again to enter into Gods' Kingdom and the law leads us there *Galatians 3:22-25. God's law shows us our need of Christ and His salvation in our lives and teaches us that we are all sick with sin and the lessons that the religious teachers in the day of Jesus did not understand. Jesus making this clear when the Scribes and the Pharisees insinuated he was a sinner because he was always around publicans and sinners. Jesus said to them in Matthew 9:12-13 "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. We are all sick with sin (see Romans 7:1-24) and in need of Jesus as the great Physician to heal us of our sickness.

MATTHEW 12:34-35 [34], O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

JEREMIAH 13:23 [23], Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may you also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

JEREMIAH 17:9-10 [9], The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10], I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

MATTHEW 15:19-20 [19], For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: [20], These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man.

JOHN 5:42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.

Truly, truly I say unto you says Jesus unless you are born again you cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven *John 3:3-7 because unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees (outward obedience without inward obedience) you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. According to the meaning therefore of Matthew 9:12-13 the very first step is to see our need of the great Physician. We are all sick with the sickness of sin. They that be whole do not need a Physician but they that are sick. The purpose of God's law is that it shows us we are all sick with sin and in need of Jesus to save us from our sins. This is the meaning of Matthew 9:12-13 and the purpose of God's Law (10 commandments) is to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith and made free to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16. Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith *Galatians 3:24

God’s new covenant promise is to give us a new heart to love and why we need to be born again by faith in God's Word for salvation to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10. This is leading to the new covenant promise of a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8.

Without Jesus we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. We need to be born of God to love *1 John 4:7 and partake of the new covenant promise. This is why Jesus teaches in *John 3:3-7 that unless we are made clean from the inside out and born again to love we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's law from the inside out and applying God’s 10 commandments to our very thoughts.

Whosoever is born of god to love in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not commit sin according to the scriptures in 1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the good news of the gospel in the new covenant. We have a Saviour to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4.

1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are born again to love and it is love that fulfills God's law in all those who believe and follow god's word in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. This results in a people that keep God’s law (10 commandments) from the inside out. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7.

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So what the conclusion of the matter? Unless we are born again from the inside out we will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

ECCLESIASTES 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

God’s LAW (10 commandments) are not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:4. This of course includes the forgotten commandment and the need to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" *Exodus 20:8-11 which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11, that we have all forgotten by following the teachings and tradition of men that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9.

God bless all those who have ears to hear and eyes to see and seek him who calls us in love. He is knocking on the door of our hearts. If we open the door he will come in and sup with us.

God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

So in summary, the gospel is every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God because it is Gods' good news of salvation for all mankind and we as Gods' people are to live by every word of it - Matthew 4:4

Nathan@work said:

The weekly Sabbath pointed to these rests - specifically the seventh day of creation. Which, the seventh day of creation pointed to the work God had finished in Christ before the foundation of the world. It is no surprise really. Everything points to God and His Son.

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How can the weekly Sabbath point to rest in Jesus when it points backwards to the finished work of creation before mankind sinned?