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You're seeing something that isn't there.
How about just discussing, without the "I win you lose" routine?
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The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???
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You're seeing something that isn't there.
How about just discussing, without the "I win you lose" routine?
Clare73
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Eternity is one of the ages, the last age, and never ending.
The "age to come" is eternity, the consummation of all the ages.
Mark 3:29 reads: "liable (guilty) of an age-lasting sin."
No forgiveness to the age (in this age, in this world, in time) and
guilty of an age-lasting (eternal) sin; i.e.,
no forgiveness ever, the guilt of sin remains age-lasting in the next age, the next world--eternity.
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Clare73
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The rich man after his physical death conscious of torment and agony in fire is not there?
Consciousness after death denotes life of one's spirit after death--immortality.
Can we drop the "deflect and fail to respond to the point" routine also?
Reminder: The "You win" (there was no "I lose") was playful, in a playful tete-a-tete we were having.
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Chi.C
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That is very "adult" of you. So why the "The old 'adults only Bible', eh?" cryptic remark? You quote Matt 11:25 inferring a child was wiser than adults. What is your message?
So Greta is wise and humble because she did not speak of her "geoengineering elephant in the sky" expertise. And let us not forget "the Convid [Covid] face masks". She is wise and humble and super pragmatic as she promotes Oil-based decomposable masks to avoid environmental...er..the mask disposal disaster. You are right children are super wise!
Once again, you seem to misunderstand. Please explain your quotes in baby language and the meaning as you see it? For my sake.
Orb in the sky
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Did Job or the writers see square or rectangular shapes hanging in the sky? No astrological beliefs, please.
Flat Earth - Once again what universe and codex?
I agree with the mission statement. I agree with means of Salvation.
So is God some super Pharmaceutical CEO, Hulk-like Orderly, with a bevy of angelic nurses who will hold every wayward soul and inject them with the faith pill? God promised all will obey. Yes, God can make all the beastie boys come to church and rewrite their soul so they are worthy to be scrutinized by God. Every wayward soul. That is possible, but not in this universe. Also, why wait till they are 200,000,000 of them and not just correct 1 - Adam? Did God read Sun-Tzu?
So how can God fulfill His promise? Is it not easier to fulfill promise by adjusting the "all". Book of life members is "all" vs everyone (which include the satanists, murderer, molesters...) as "all".
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Where does it say the spirts of the unsaved are immortal? The Bible mostly talks about their death.
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What about the ages to come?
"that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:7
An age is a span of time with a beginning and an end. An age starts with an event and ends with an event that begins the next age. The age to come is the millennial reign of Christ on Earth.
Even Heaven isn't eternal.
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Matthew 24:35
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Chi.C
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I am bound by biblical inerrancy. Gotta go there!
Computer analogy
Files on the harddrive - information in stored state. (Sheol)
Files in in active RAM - information interacting with App. (Life/Afterlife/Consequence)
The files in hdd that do not meet the standards of the User during active RAM state interaction, will remain on the harddrive (Sheol at judgement and during judgement.)
New hdd added. Desirable information is transferred to New hdd. (New Jerusalem/Tree of Life)
Old hdd is removed from Computer and destroyed. Static information and all wiped out. Not trash delete but hammer and bleach bit - Clinton style . (into Lake of Fire - information is static and will be destroyed in that state. Revelation 22:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." )
I believe old days they used books instead of computer files!
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Clare73
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Not the eternal age.
As defined by whom. Do you have apostolic teaching to that effect?
Do you have apostolic teaching to that effect, or is that someone's personal interpretation of (a) prophetic riddle(s)?
Prophecy is not didactics (teaching), but often symbolic rather than literal, given in riddles rather than clearly (Numbers 12:8) and, therefore, subject to more than one interpretation.
There are three heavens in Scripture. The third heaven is eternal (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).
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Clare73
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Mostly is not only, nor exclusively.
Jesus, in his parable, presents immortality (life of the spirit after physical death) of the (unsaved) spirit of the rich man in Hades (the place of punishment in Sheol) in the agony and torment of fire, while Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham (Paradise, the place of blessing in Sheol, the place of the deceased).
Luke 16:19-31
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No matter how much things change, they remain the same. They had scrolls to read. Now we scroll on a computer. Same thing.
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Lazarus Short
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Given the title of this thread, I thought it good to collect every statement Jesus made as to why He was here:
Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
Matthew 9:13 – “…I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Matthew 10:34-35 – “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW.”
Matthew 15:24 – “…I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 18:11 – “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
Matthew 20:28 – “…the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Mark 1:38 – “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.”
Mark 2:17 – “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 4:18-19 – “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
Luke 4:43 – “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”
Luke 5:31-32 – “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 9:56 – “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”
Luke 12:49 – “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?”
Luke 12:51 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”
Luke 19:10 – “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Luke 24:26 – “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?”
Luke 24:46-47 – “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
John 3:14-17 – “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
John 4:34 – “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.”
John 5:30 – “…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
John 5:43 – “I am come in my Father’s name…”
John 6:38-40 – “For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:48,51 – “I am that bread of life…if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
John 7:28-29 – “…I am not come of myself…for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”
John 9:39 – “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.”
John 10:10 – “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
John 12:27 – “Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.”
John 12:46 – “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”
John 15:22 – “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.”
John 18:37 – “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.”
Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
Matthew 9:13 – “…I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Matthew 10:34-35 – “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW.”
Matthew 15:24 – “…I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 18:11 – “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
Matthew 20:28 – “…the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Mark 1:38 – “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.”
Mark 2:17 – “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 4:18-19 – “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
Luke 4:43 – “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”
Luke 5:31-32 – “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 9:56 – “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”
Luke 12:49 – “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?”
Luke 12:51 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”
Luke 19:10 – “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Luke 24:26 – “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?”
Luke 24:46-47 – “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
John 3:14-17 – “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
John 4:34 – “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.”
John 5:30 – “…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
John 5:43 – “I am come in my Father’s name…”
John 6:38-40 – “For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:48,51 – “I am that bread of life…if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
John 7:28-29 – “…I am not come of myself…for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”
John 9:39 – “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.”
John 10:10 – “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
John 12:27 – “Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.”
John 12:46 – “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”
John 15:22 – “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.”
John 18:37 – “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.”
Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
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Very well then, the scriptures say there will be life only for those in Christ and death for those who aren't.
There's no indication permanency in that arrangement. Do you think you're going to spend eternity in Abraham's Bosom?
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The ice age, bronze age, space age etc. That's what an age is. The millennial reign of Christ is described in Revelation 20. It's also known as the thousand year golden age of the church. The next age to come. And according to Paul, there are more ages to come.
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Wow. Who were you quoting in post #801 ?
"Nice try, but hilarity serves simply as a refuge for a failed argument."
I think humor can at times make the BEST argument. To see what is ridiculous about the issue being discussed. The element of truth in a joke is in direct proportion to how funny it is. We laugh hardest when we think, "That is so true! What a brilliant connection to make."
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Good point. Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting for us on this. Good work.
Do you agree that the Bible is the story of God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or do you see it differently? What is a better way to look at this? (or another way)
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Lazarus Short
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Thank you, Steve, but that was light work. I just this morning finished another run-through of my 240+ page manuscript, which included the contents of my post #812, editing, correcting and polishing. THAT was heavy lifting! It took parts of three days. I plan to try a printing trial, now that I know how to print double-sided with a non-duplexing printer. Wish me luck.
You are correct about the story of the Bible, as far as you go, but I see it as only mostly about the redemption of mankind. You see, God is going to redeem the entire created Cosmos. Talk about Heavy Lifting...
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Clare73
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If hell and damnation were not real, there was no need for him to die.
The whole meaning and purpose of salvation is predicated on damnation, on being saved from hell, which is why he so mercifully warned us of it, so many times.
Only fallen man would turn his merciful warnings about damnation, hell and judgment into malevolence.
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Clare73
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A more complete reading of Scripture reveals it is the second death, which Jesus was careful to make sure we understood correctly by teaching it in story form (parable) in Luke 16:19-31, where the rich man after his death abides in a place of conscious torment in the agony of fire. . .in a state of being, not in the oblivion of non-being.
Abraham's bosom = Paradise. . .and that is exactly where I am going to spend eternity. . .with you, I hope!
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