Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

Fidelibus · Apr 20, 2021

setst777 said:
I felt compelled to respond to this argument as well.

Okay

Everything we need to know for our Christian faith (for our salvation) can be found within the pages of the Bible.

So not to steer this thread off topic to much, I will only address this briefly. However, if you'd like to start a thread regarding this, I would be happy to participate in it.

So... using Scripture alone, could you show the Book, Chapter and verse where it says that the Bible Alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith. I'm pretty sure your first reaction will be to post 2 Timothy 3:16–17 as many if not all believers of the Bible Alone doctrine do which has been proven not to say it at all. However, an examination of the verse in context shows it only claims Scripture is “profitable” (Greek: ophelimos), that is, helpful. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is “sufficient.”

For instance, you mentioned John 21:25

While that is true that the Bible does not contain every act, word, and expression of Lord Jesus, even John recognizes that all that he wrote in his Gospel is fully sufficient to believe in Lord Jesus, and that by believing we may have life.

John 20:31 (WEB)
31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Beyond that:

The fullness of Gospel is in writing by the command of the eternal God so that all Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NIV)
13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

Colossians 2:1-8
1 I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally (so it has to be in writing). 2 My purpose is that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the Mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you with find sounding arguments.
. . . 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

1 Peter 1:10-12 (WEB)
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently. They prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them. 12 To them it was revealed, that they served not themselves, but you, in these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

So the fullness of the Gospel was preached, but was also written down by the Command of the Eternal God to give us complete understanding of the mystery of the Gospel, that for past ages was hidden.

And we are to earnestly contend for that faith that was once and for all revealed to us so we are not swept of by every wind of doctrine, traditions, and teachings of men, just like the Jewish leaders in Jesus' day were also warned about.

Jude 3-4 (WEB) 3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So, by reading the Scriptures in context, we can understand the fullness of the Gospel, which God meant, and commanded, to give us the full riches of complete understanding of the mystery of God’s saving grace that was still a mystery in times past, so that the Gentiles may be lead to obedience that comes from faith (Romans 15:17-19; Romans 16:25-27).

So, when I see religions and various people in past times, or even in our own days, introduce some new doctrine, tradition, or teaching not found in the Fully Revealed Word of God, I am not fooled.

They need to learn the meaning of the warning of Scripture - not to go beyond what is written.

1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV)
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Well 777, I read the Scripture you posted here, and did not find in one of them where it says that all we needed is the Bible, and that the Bible Alone is sufficient as a Sole Rule of Faith.

I would also say that the Scripture you posted, I believe 100%!! However, with all respect 777, what I also did see, outside of you quoting Scripture directly, is your fallible and personal interpretation/opinion of what 'you' believe the Scripture verses and passages suggest or mean, in which I cannot believe with 100%. Again with respect, you would agree that being fallible, your personal interpretations and opinions could be wrong and in error,,,, right?

Like I said 777, start a thread on this and I would be happy to join in.

Have a Blessed Day!

GDL · Apr 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Thanks for the additional and expected put down.

Try as you may, shifting this to being a "put down" by me is just more of the same. You in fact have left questions unanswered, have told me how you feel, and I was sincere in thanking you for your effort. None of these doctrinal things are simple to deal with and require effort. I'm appreciative of your time. I just find your points and Rome's focus on Mary wanting and for me unimportant. Christ is the only mediator and we have direct access to Him, and according to Him, to our Father.

With that said, I did do some follow-up on the topic after all. I have read some of the arguments before and just think it is a pointless denominational exercise. Few if any minds are going to be changed.

I ended up on a site called CatholicBridge. It's exhausting reading it. It has some interesting points I've never read before. It has many points I have read. The problem for me is that there were a few points that are immediately recognizable to me as wrong. One was their treatment of the Greek perfect tense for the word you argue for. What they say about the perfect tense is just wrong and something put to rest in early training in Greek.

Another site, a non-catholic one that I subscribe to to get articles from theological and exegetical journals, had one that spoke of what I mentioned to you re: the "full of" grace translation that Catholicism has inserted and run with. The writer agreed with what I had pointed out to you about the insertion.

Another issue was a glaring tendency for arguments from silence.

Re: the OP, post #84 IMO brings up some good exegetical issues to deal with re: Romans 3.

GDL · Apr 20, 2021

Fidelibus said:
"Having" sinned implies that one has committed personal sin. Romans 3:23 says that "all HAVE sinned." Babies have not sinned. The mentally handicapped have not sinned. They may be in a state of original sin, but they, personally, HAVE NOT sinned.

Yet the entire human race is subject to death from sin. "Original sin" and universal sin is a big topic within exegetical studies. A quick search in a journal articles site I use periodically resulted in 8 pages of lists of articles having to do with Romans 3:23 in varying degrees. In glancing through the lists and some of the articles, some see 3:23 as dealing just with the 2 groups - Jews and gentiles, some with universal sin implied, some with universal sin stated, and several with it clearly dealt with in other areas of Romans.

A presumed innocence of babies, a presumed innocence of mentally challenged, a presumed innocence of Mary - all presumption you're throwing out. Some interesting thoughts and studies. You brought them up. Prove your case with Scripture. Read #122 before you do.

Fidelibus · Apr 20, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
The same word translated to “all” in Romans 3:23 is also used in Mark 1:5.

“And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I’m curious if there is evidence in the scriptures that not all of Judea was coming to JTB to be baptized and confessing their sins. I don’t think it’s likely that all came to him to be baptized but I’d really like to see some solid evidence if anyone has any thoughts or scriptures to this effect. My first thought was Legion but I think he was actually outside of Judea if I’m not mistaken. But I think if we can conclude that not all in Judea came to JTB to be baptized then we can support the idea that the Greek word translated to all doesn’t always mean every single person.

Not only that, if you look at Romans 5, 18-19, "In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all." (19)"For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous."

It looks as though Paul is not using “ALL” as an absolute. He says in verse 18 that “ALL” have been condemned, but he also says that “ALL” have been acquitted and have life. If “ALL” means absolutely everyone who has ever been born, then that means as all were condemned, so all are saved - every single person who has ever lived, or ever will live - ALL - are saved.

How many of you posters here on this thread believe in that? Do you believe in universal salvation? No? But, the fact that Paul doesn’t use “ALL” as an absolute is shown very clearly in verse 19, where Paul repeats what he just said in verse 18, but with one very interesting difference...instead of using “ALL,” he uses the word “MANY.” So, “MANY” were made sinners - not ALL - and MANY will be made righteous, but not ALL.

ALL of that is to say, that one cannot use Romans 3:23 to “prove” Mary was a sinner, because, Paul is not talking about everyone who has ever lived, furthermore, Rom 5:18-19 shows that Paul, when saying the same thing as he said in Rom 3, uses the word “ALL” and the word “MANY” interchangeably. In other words, I agree..... “ALL” is not an absolute.

Thank you for your post, and have a Blessed Day!

Strong in Him · Apr 20, 2021

Fidelibus said:
Okay, so I will you as well..... Are you seeking God in your life?

?? I'm a Christian; God IS in my life.

GDL · Apr 20, 2021

Fidelibus said:
It looks as though Paul is not using “ALL” as an absolute. He says in verse 18 that “ALL” have been condemned, but he also says that “ALL” have been acquitted and have life. If “ALL” means absolutely everyone who has ever been born, then that means as all were condemned, so all are saved - every single person who has ever lived, or ever will live - ALL - are saved.

How many of you posters here on this thread believe in that? Do you believe in universal salvation? No? But, the fact that Paul doesn’t use “ALL” as an absolute is shown very clearly in verse 19, where Paul repeats what he just said in verse 18, but with one very interesting difference...instead of using “ALL,” he uses the word “MANY.” So, “MANY” were made sinners - not ALL - and MANY will be made righteous, but not ALL.

At least we're talking language now, which is a good thing.

Your points about universal sin are valid considerations. Post #84 brings up a few points about this and links an article written about "all" in 3:23 by a language scholar, who basically makes a similar point you're making about universal sin and says 3:23 doesn't deal with it. I value his work in languages, subscribe to his diagrams, and have communicated with him before on a few language issues.

One of the points I don't think is addressed in the article is the implication of universal sin, even if not pointing to it directly.

A couple issues we, including you, will need to deal with about universal sin in Romans are: Some exegetical articles do say that Paul deals with it elsewhere in Romans; a quick search in Greek shows Paul using "all" 72 times in 62 verses in Romans, so, if we're going to take a side on the universal sin issue pertaining to the word "all", we have a lot of work to do just in Romans.

GDL · Apr 20, 2021

Fidelibus said:
Well, if you are a believer of the Bible Alone, you should have no problem showing from Scripture where it says that mentally handicapped humans knowingly commit personal sin?

And you should have no problem proving your case. And, if you simply want to make a case from tradition, and posit apostolic succession, then we go nowhere.

Fidelibus said:
So its been said, but yet to be proven by Bible Alone adherents.

Funny how the protestant view is yet to be proven, even though there are many exegetical rebuttals, but your view is proven. Your position is an opinion.

concretecamper · Apr 20, 2021

Strong in Him said:
?? I'm a Christian; God IS in my life

we will have to take your word for it.

Valletta · Apr 20, 2021

zoidar said:
I think my argument was quite good, since the Bible is our first choice of source, don't you agree? There might be other valid sources, sure, but none are as good and reliable as the Bible, won't you say? Is it not you that need to prove Mary was sinless, rather than I needing to prove she wasn't. I don't think I can prove she wasn't, but neither can I prove universal salvation wrong, something Origen believed in and the RCC dismissed. Nowhere does the Bible say universal salvation isn't true, yet we don't hold it as doctrine. Such an radical idea needs to be proven, not unproven, the same with Mary's sinlessness IMO. There are verses that could be understood as the Bible teaching universal salvation, but as far as Mary's sinlessness, I can't recall one verse.

I like the way you reason, but think you are wrong on this. Paul is talking about the situation before we are born again, then all are sinners, none seeking God, all gone astray. After being born again we are saints, not sinners in the sense that we are not living in sin, certainly should not live in sin. Then we seek God daily, or should seek him daily. Me being righteous today, doesn't mean I wasn't a sinner yesterday. So yes, we all have sinned.

renniks said:
Why would we assume Mary was an exception?

"All" either means every person or it does not. As to Mary, is the context of "all" in a discussion about whether Mary is a sinner or not? No. Did Jesus sin? No. How about newborns, have they sinned? No.
How about severely mentally handicapped people. No. Based upon these facts "all" does not mean every single person.

zippy2006 · Apr 20, 2021

Valletta said:
Did Jesus sin? No.

I think this is compelling. The common Protestant argument comes down to, "All means all!*"

*Except for Jesus

Strong in Him · Apr 21, 2021

concretecamper said:
we will have to take your word for it.

As this forum is for Christians only and I have been writing about the Gospel and Scripture, I don't see you have any grounds to doubt such a comment.

zoidar · Apr 21, 2021

Valletta said:
"All" either means every person or it does not. As to Mary, is the context of "all" in a discussion about whether Mary is a sinner or not? No. Did Jesus sin? No. How about newborns, have they sinned? No.
How about severely mentally handicapped people. No. Based upon these facts "all" does not mean every single person.

I don't think Paul was thinking about those with a severe mental disability when he wrote this and of course he is not including Jesus to "all". As a baby grows up, he/she also has sinned. That's the course of everyone with the exception of those who never reach the capability of sinning, that's thing. Pointing to those very few possible exceptions to that rule in Paul's text is looking for something that he isn't even trying to explain. Trying to make a case for Mary's sinlessness this way is not really making justice to the text.

But couldn't Mary be one of the exceptions? She could, but in that case that has to be shown from other texts.

setst777 · Apr 21, 2021

Fidelibus said:
I would also say that the Scripture you posted, I believe 100%!! However, with all respect 777, what I also did see, outside of you quoting Scripture directly, is your fallible and personal interpretation/opinion of what 'you' believe the Scripture verses and passages suggest or mean, in which I cannot believe with 100%. Again with respect, you would agree that being fallible, your personal interpretations and opinions could be wrong and in error,,,, right?

Like I said 777, start a thread on this and I would be happy to join in.

Have a Blessed Day!

What opinion did I give that goes beyond what was written in Scripture?

Was it not you who were espousing your ideas of Mary being sinless that actually is not written in the Scriptures? Is that not actually a tradition and doctrine of men, not God?

The Scriptures I quoted, and of which you agree with 100%, teach us that the Scriptures, by God's own authority and command, have all we need for our salvation. You agree with this 100%. Since that is the case, why do you still hold onto your un-Biblical traditions?

Blessings

renniks · Apr 21, 2021

Valletta said:
"All" either means every person or it does not. As to Mary, is the context of "all" in a discussion about whether Mary is a sinner or not? No. Did Jesus sin? No. How about newborns, have they sinned? No.
How about severely mentally handicapped people. No. Based upon these facts "all" does not mean every single person.

You still didn't answer the question... Mary was not a newborn and she wasn't Jesus... why would she be an exception?

Valletta · Apr 21, 2021

renniks said:
You still didn't answer the question... Mary was not a newborn and she wasn't Jesus... why would she be an exception?

Jesus was not a newborn nor was He Mary. A newborn is not Mary nor Jesus, why is a newborn an exception? Was is a severely mentally handicapped adult an exception?

Valletta · Apr 21, 2021

setst777 said:
What opinion did I give that goes beyond what was written in Scripture?

Was it not you who were espousing your ideas of Mary being sinless that actually is not written in the Scriptures? Is that not actually a tradition and doctrine of men, not God?

The Scriptures I quoted, and of which you agree with 100%, teach us that the Scriptures, by God's own authority and command, have all we need for our salvation. You agree with this 100%. Since that is the case, why do you still hold onto your un-Biblical traditions?

Blessings

The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries, giving the world the Bible in the late 300s. We have the Bible because it is the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, and we know the Bible is God-breathed because that is Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. We need Jesus for salvation, not the Bible, although all of Holy Scripture is of great benefit. There were early Christians in the centuries before the Bible, and many of those Christians, including the Apostles, were saved.

Valletta · Apr 21, 2021

zoidar said:
I don't think Paul was thinking about those with a severe mental disability when he wrote this and of course he is not including Jesus to "all". As a baby grows up, he/she also has sinned. That's the course of everyone with the exception of those who never reach the capability of sinning, that's thing. Pointing to those very few possible exceptions to that rule in Paul's text is looking for something that he isn't even trying to explain. Trying to make a case for Mary's sinlessness this way is not really making justice to the text.

But couldn't Mary be one of the exceptions? She could, but in that case that has to be shown from other texts.

As to babies, "All HAVE sinned" past tense. The Bible could have said "All have sinned or will sin."

GDL · Apr 21, 2021

zippy2006 said:
I think this is compelling. The common Protestant argument comes down to, "All means all!*

Actually, the Protestant argument most assuredly excepts Jesus Christ and sees "all" as all in Adam. Also, this Protestant exegete does some nice work to say that all in Romans 3:23 has to be limited to "those who believe" in 3:22, or we end up with universal sin and universal justification.

There are other places in Romans to consider "all" meaning all. And every place that it may, the Protestant position is surely that Jesus is sinless and not to be considered as being in Adam.

GDL · Apr 21, 2021

zippy2006 said:
I think this is compelling. The common Protestant argument comes down to, "All means all!*"

Sorry. See post #84 for the exegetical article.

GDL · Apr 21, 2021

Valletta said:
The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries, giving the world the Bible in the late 300s. We have the Bible because it is the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church

Looks like they worked to finalize it longer than that, an we thank them for it.

Timeline of how the Bible came to us

Actually, I'm sure Luther and then the Protestants thank them and may wonder why they canonized writings that exposed their errors.

Valletta said:
and we know the Bible is God-breathed because that is Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Actually we all know this about Scripture because Scripture tells us.

Valletta said:
We need Jesus for salvation, not the Bible, although all of Holy Scripture is of great benefit.

There you go. Agreement for the most part. I'm thankful we have the Hebrew Scriptures, which the Catholics didn't give us, and the rest of Scriptures to tell us about Jesus Christ, so we don't have to rely on any denomination to tell us anything.

Valletta said:
There were early Christians in the centuries before the Bible, and many of those Christians, including the Apostles, were saved.

Sure were, thanks to the Hebrews, then Jesus Himself, then those who spread the Word verbally and continued to work out the information and put into writing...

Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

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