Can you be saved after death?

Goodhuman

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As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?
 

disciple Clint

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As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?
As we all know God can do what He wants but it is agreed by nearly all theologians that you cannot be save after death. Jesus preached to two groups one group was the fallen angels he told them they were on borrowed time, the lake of fire would be ready for them and explained why. The other group was the people who were righteous and were waiting for the Messiah, He told them their wait was over and He escorted them to heaven.
 
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Goodhuman

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As we all know God can do what He wants but it is agreed by nearly all theologians that you cannot be save after death. Jesus preached to two groups one group was the fallen angels he told them they were on borrowed time, the lake of fire would be ready for them and explained why. The other group was the people who were righteous and were waiting for the Messiah, He told them their wait was over and He escorted them to heaven.

I don't think that the fallen angels are christians. No need to preach to them if they aren't christians.
And I don't think that they who are with satan makes them to be in prison. They are higher than saved christians.
Even the orthodox church believes that demons (which they say are the fallen angels) are not judged now and they judge the humans after death in the ariel toll houses.
The dead need our prayers, but why if they cannot become more spiritually?
For sure God is not righteous if he let the righteous to go to hell before Christ died. Who says the other religions aren't true?
 
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Hammster

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As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?
I’ll answer by asking. Would you be for that type of punishment for murderers?
 
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dqhall

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As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?
Is procrastination a sin? People should try to do God’s work today rather than wait until tomorrow, or after they die.

Isaiah wrote about the Lord’s work in his day.
Jesus went into a Nazareth synagogue and read part of Isaiah 42 as described in Luke 4.

Isaiah 42 (NIV) Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

5 This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The dead need our prayers, but why if they cannot become more spiritually?
Correct, they can not become more spiritual or in other words , righteous after death. There is no flesh in which to recieve His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings us into the Body of Christ. Be blessed.
 
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Davy

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I don't think that the fallen angels are christians. No need to preach to them if they aren't christians.
And I don't think that they who are with satan makes them to be in prison. They are higher than saved christians.
Even the orthodox church believes that demons (which they say are the fallen angels) are not judged now and they judge the humans after death in the ariel toll houses.
The dead need our prayers, but why if they cannot become more spiritually?
For sure God is not righteous if he let the righteous to go to hell before Christ died. Who says the other religions aren't true?

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

KJV

Notice to whom He preached to, those who were disobedient. If the Luke 16 pattern about the heavenly paradise is true, with one side across the gulf being hell, and the other side where Abraham and the believing are, then that must be considered with these Scriptures.


1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV



Jesus preaching The Gospel to the spirits in prison was a prophecy from Isaiah 42:6-7 that He would do that at His 1st coming.

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

KJV

So there is a pit prison in the heavenly dimension where the unjust are held.
 
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Bro.T

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As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?

The word says in Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The word says in Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ya beat me to it, bro. :oldthumbsup:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto (all) men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Those who die in "a state of grace" are "saved" while yet alive. These are the 'chosen'. But "the rest of the dead", those unsaved, will come up in the second resurrection, be given the Holy Spirit, and will likely all be saved as well.

"For God not willing that any should perish..."
 
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Mark Quayle

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But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?
God didn't ask us for advice.

Nobody becomes worthy by service, or any other effort they can put out --not even by obedience.

God did not create for the purpose of 'souls [that are ultimately] tormented' but for the purpose to which he submitted all creation --his own glory. This is the reason for creating those to whom he chose to show mercy, who are 'saved'.
 
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Dave G.

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Our window of opportunity is here and now in this life while in the flesh. And Jesus is our righteousness, He did that on the cross. For those who are in Him then to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8.
 
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Strong in Him

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As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?

My understanding is that he preached to those who lived in OT times and who died before he came.
I think souls will be tormented because they will have met with God, found out that the Gospel was true, realised that they rejected it and have no chance for forgiveness. Think of the embarrassment of slagging off a famous person and scorning their riches/character/power, expecting them never to hear your words, and then finding out that they are standing right behind you, and that they are not the person you thought they were; multiply that embarrassment by a million.
It's not God who does the tormenting - in spite of story books, he does not gleefully prod people with a pitchfork and push them into an eternal barbeque.

No one can ever do enough, or give enough service, to be worthy.
 
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disciple Clint

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I don't think that the fallen angels are christians. No need to preach to them if they aren't christians.
And I don't think that they who are with satan makes them to be in prison. They are higher than saved christians.
Even the orthodox church believes that demons (which they say are the fallen angels) are not judged now and they judge the humans after death in the ariel toll houses.
The dead need our prayers, but why if they cannot become more spiritually?
For sure God is not righteous if he let the righteous to go to hell before Christ died. Who says the other religions aren't true?
There are some misunderstanding in that post. Fallen angels have been place in chains inside the earth, they are waiting for the eschaton when the will be place in the lake of fire. Jesus was not preaching to save them, He was telling them that He had just defeated them by overcoming death. Angels do not judge humans at anytime in the Bible, we are judged by Jesus. Jesus did not go to hell and preach He when to sheol which is the place of the dead, prior to Jesus all of the dead were inhabitants of sheol some in hell and some in paradise. Those in paradise were waiting for Jesus to free them and take them to heaven. He preached to them telling them that their wait was over and explaining what He had done. Regarding prayers for the dead, unless you accept the doctrine of purgatory there is no benefit because people are judged immediately after death, those going to hell, go to hell, those going to heaven do so. I am not trying to be critical of your understanding, I am trying to explain what the Bible has to say.
 
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disciple Clint

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If anybody is fallen, evil or with satan automatically makes him to suffer? Isn't that discrimination?
Satan is God's creature too and have right to live.
Since as you say satan is God's creature, God has the right to do with him as He likes. God is just and satan has more than earned eternal suffering.
 
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Ceallaigh

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While the Roman Empire and theologians like Augustine made eternal torment of the unsaved after death the predominant view, it's not the only view formed by the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."


There are those who believe what Jesus said, didn't really have anything to do with a hell of eternal torment, but was rather giving judgement against Israel and prophesying the breaking of God's covenant for a new one with the Gentiles and the destruction of Jerusalem etc.
 
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Goodhuman

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Since as you say satan is God's creature, God has the right to do with him as He likes. God is just and satan has more than earned eternal suffering.

Do you know that the fallen angels have only one sin? This sin makes them evil spirits in the moment they did it. But before this they have been surving God for eternity, because it is not known since when they exist. Do you think this serving of God will disappear?
 
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disciple Clint

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Do you know that the fallen angels have only one sin? This sin makes them evil spirits in the moment they did it. But before this they have been surving God for eternity, because it is not known since when they exist. Do you think this serving of God will disappear?
The problem is that the one sin was the unpardonable sin, they totally rejected God. What makes this a most serious sin is that Angels are superior in intellect to humans they fully understood the decision they were making and with full knowledge they rejected God.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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There are some misunderstanding in that post. Fallen angels have been place in chains inside the earth, they are waiting for the eschaton when the will be place in the lake of fire. Jesus was not preaching to save them, He was telling them that He had just defeated them by overcoming death. Angels do not judge humans at anytime in the Bible, we are judged by Jesus. Jesus did not go to hell and preach He when to sheol which is the place of the dead, prior to Jesus all of the dead were inhabitants of sheol some in hell and some in paradise. Those in paradise were waiting for Jesus to free them and take them to heaven. He preached to them telling them that their wait was over and explaining what He had done. Regarding prayers for the dead, unless you accept the doctrine of purgatory there is no benefit because people are judged immediately after death, those going to hell, go to hell, those going to heaven do so. I am not trying to be critical of your understanding, I am trying to explain what the Bible has to say.

What Goodhuman is referring to is an Orthodox teaching that after death, the soul is accompanied by angels and demons through what are referred to as the "aerial tollhouses" where demons accuse the soul of various sins. Basically, it is a partial description of the particular judgement upon death where as experience a foretaste of heaven or hell. We believe that St. Paul hints at this in Ephesians 6:12-13 (part of Paul's "armor of God", where we struggle not against rulers but in the heavenly realms). Jesus describes it in his teaching of Lazarus and the rich man.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Although it is common throughout the entire Orthodox church, Slavs and Russians take it more literally, whereas we Greeks lean more of a metaphorical understanding of it.
 
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