The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Clare73

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Yep, the fire isn't going to go out, and there'll be enough worms to go around. Doesn't say anything about those hove into the fire living there forever, does it?
You just made that part up and stuck a "thus sayeth the Lord" on it.

Can I have one of those anathemas you have there?
I wanna chuck some of them back at you.
Well, those were all a lotta' heat and no light.

That irrefutable demonstration of the meaning of "eternal" hit a nerve. . .or a hot spot?
 
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Ceallaigh

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The concept of hell will have to be explained with sheol Ecclesiastes 9:10.
Please show me "hell" in the scriptures. No extra biblical explanations please.

Hell is another name for Hades. The word Hades appears in the Greek manuscripts. Such as in Luke 16:22-23.

In "In Hades" ᾅδῃ (adē) Hades, the abode of departed spirits.

Hades (also called Hell) is the Greek version of Sheol, just like Jesus is the Greek version of Yeshua.
 
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Saint Steven

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Damnation-ism, Annihil-ism, Ultimate Redemption(ism). Where is "bible" in the three choices?
This is the best unbiased explanation I have seen.
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg
 
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Ceallaigh

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Well, those were all a lotta' heat and no light.

That irrefutable demonstration of the meaning of "eternal" hit a nerve. . .or a hot spot?

That comment sure tickled my funny bone.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Eternal life = God's own life
Spiritual life = eternal (God's own) life in one's spirit (lost when Adam fell)
Spiritual death = no eternal (God's own) life in one's spirit, living spiritual separation from God, we are born in spiritual death, raised to spiritual life in the new birth
Second death = living unending spiritual separation from God, eternal damnation (Mark 3:29), eternal death

Notice how Matthew 12:32 makes it clear that Jesus is talking about ages, rather than eternity:

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

Which backs up Young's translation of Mark 3:29:

"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment"

 
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Chi.C

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Hell is another name for Hades. The word Hades appears in the Greek manuscripts. Such as in Luke 16:22-23.

In "In Hades" ᾅδῃ (adē) Hades, the abode of departed spirits.

Hades (also called Hell) is the Greek version of Sheol, just like Jesus is the Greek version of Yeshua.
Verse from bible, Sacred text for Christians and Jews.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Written 450–200 BCE

Sheol is a place of rest for dead, good and bad, rich and poor running the gambit of shades and unconciousness . All of the sudden, around 50 AD, the Apostles who were Jews espoused Hades as Hell as Sheol. Does that make any sense? Why would the Apostles adopt a pagan concept over a hebrew one? If citizens of Lesbos, were translated to english as Lesbians , are all the people there all female homosexuals?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Verse from bible, Sacred text for Christians and Jews.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Written 450–200 BCE

Sheol is a place of rest for dead, good and bad, rich and poor running the gambit of shades and unconciousness . All of the sudden, around 50 AD, the Apostles who were Jews espoused Hades as Hell as Sheol. Does that make any sense? Why would the Apostles adopt a pagan concept over a hebrew one? If citizens of Lesbos, were translated to english as Lesbians , are all the people there all female homosexuals?

Not the Apostles, Jesus. Things Jesus said is what brought about the belief in "hell". Although there are those who don't think Jesus was taking about "hell" at all, but was rather giving judgement against Israel and prophesying the breaking of God's covenant for a new one with the Gentiles and the destruction of Jerusalem etc.
 
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Damnation-ism, Annihil-ism, Ultimate Redemption(ism). Where is "bible" in the three choices?

Well, these are just labels to describe 3 alternative views of what the Bible says will happen to folks after they die. Far as I know, there are no other options. But if you've got something to add, by all means proceed.

So Greta Thunberg is ideal to explain anthropogenic global warming?

Not unless she brings the geoengineering elephant in the sky into her schtick. Let's talk weather warfare on civilian populations, Greta. And how about the environmental disaster occurring through discarded Convid face masks? How very dare you.

I will go with your misunderstanding of the verse. Two creations of the Creator cannot contradict. What universe and codex are you espousing?

What misunderstanding? The most futuristic representation in scripture is 1 Cor 15:28, God will be all in all once he receives the package of creation from Christ. You think He does things by halves? Help that man's unbelief Lord! As all things proceed from Him, so to Him shall all return.

And if you can find me any hint of a spinning waterball earth in near-infinite space cosmology in the Bible, do please dial those scriptures in. On my reading, a flat stationary enclosed earth is taught. Do try to accept it. God true, every man liar.

I have enough faith to believe Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and is our Saviour. I have enough courage to say the Scriptures are inerrant. I have enough wisdom to know a lie when I see it.

Ok, so let's just follow that through, reason with me, if you will. It's what adults are supposed to do, consider the consequences and all that, whose ox gets gored and what if it has form-type thing. If Jesus is the true begotten son of God, whose birth is good news for all mankind, whose mission is to save the world, and God wants all mankind saved, and God has promised that all will confess, and confession is all that is required for salvation, and salvation is a gift of God, and God will be all in all, and Salvation is the omega plan...then er, gee, um, der...dem mostly all die, boss?

I believe God will annihilate stupidity. That's what's causing the perishing. Capisce?
 
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Saint Steven

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Verse from bible, Sacred text for Christians and Jews.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Written 450–200 BCE

Sheol is a place of rest for dead, good and bad, rich and poor running the gambit of shades and unconciousness . All of the sudden, around 50 AD, the Apostles who were Jews espoused Hades as Hell as Sheol. Does that make any sense? Why would the Apostles adopt a pagan concept over a hebrew one? If citizens of Lesbos, were translated to english as Lesbians , are all the people there all female homosexuals?
Probably not a good idea to build your theology on a poetry book.

The same chapter in Ecclesiastes that is used to claim unconscious nonexistence for the dead also makes reference to "the realm of the dead" (where you are going) in verse ten. The term "the realm of the dead" is found 29 times in the NIV translation. Two of those in Acts chapter two.

And the same sentence in verse five that says the dead know nothing, also says, "they have no further reward" and "even their name is forgotten". Do you believe that as well? No rewards in heaven then. Right?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
 
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Probably not a good idea to build your theology on a poetry book.

The same chapter in Ecclesiastes that is used to claim unconscious nonexistence for the dead also makes reference to "the realm of the dead" (where you are going) in verse ten. The term "the realm of the dead" is found 29 times in the NIV translation. Two of those in Acts chapter two.

And the same sentence in verse five that says the dead know nothing, also says, "they have no further reward" and "even their name is forgotten". Do you believe that as well? No rewards in heaven then. Right?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Ecclesiastes is the song of a bitter old man who left God for the pursuits of worldly wisdom and came up dry.
 
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Except when you are offended by what it teaches; e.g., Mark 9:47-48, and then try to confound the use of its words to defend unbelief.

I happen to think it's good news that the worm doesn't die. Where there's life there's hope. Plus worms improve the soil, so that when the farmer sows the seed, it can grow. Alleluja to the persistent worm!

Except when Jesus warns of the unquenchable fire awaiting the damned (Mark 9:47-48), then it's time not only to question, but to confound and misrepresent words' meanings for the sake of overturning Jesus, employing this charade of verses as "proof" that the meaning of aoinois is not "eternal."

But it turns out that aoinois (age-lasting) is used in none of those "proof" verses, rather another word is used whose meaning is not age-lasting (eternal).

Whereas, examples of the NT usage of aionios to mean "eternal" are illustrated in:

1) the eternal resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1) is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53),
2) eternal life (John 3:16) is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:53),

3) Christ's eternal kingdom (2 Peter 1:11) is without end (Luke 1:33),
4) eternal sin is never forgiven sin (Mark 3:29),
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season, ending), what is unseen is eternal (opposite of ending)
(2 Corinthians 4:18)

Now we know what eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2), eternal damnation (Mark 3:29) and eternal fire (Jude 7) mean.

So to quote the one who shall remain nameless:
"But don't ever let that stop you from trying."

Why isn't the fire eternal? It's the fire of God's love in judgment, His presence that annihilates the enemies, such as unbelief, stubbornness, pride, self-righteousness, hypocrisy and (el ultimo) death.

I love that fire.

So do you?

Physician, heal thyself!

Pass me some of that Gospel truth to cure what ails me.
Oh sister lets go down, down in the river and pray.
 
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Saint Steven

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Ecclesiastes is the song of a bitter old man who left God for the pursuits of worldly wisdom and came up dry.
Yup. And he doesn't waste any time getting to the point.

Ecclesiastes 1:2 NIV
“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
 
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Yup. And he doesn't waste any time getting to the point.

Ecclesiastes 1:2 NIV
“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”

Do you think Solomon was the grumpiest old man of scripture? Could be played by Walter Matthau?
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you think Solomon was the grumpiest old man of scripture? Could be played by Walter Matthau?
I'm just trying to imagine so many nylon stockings hanging up to dry in the bathroom, with so many wives. - lol

But I would probably give my grumpy award to Elisha. 2 Kings 2:23-24
 
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Clare73

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Caused a lot of hilarity, anyway. Very creative. <Laugh>
And speaking of hilarity, I note you conspicuously failed to address the issue, which is immortality in Jesus' parable of Luke 16:19-31, where Jesus presents immortality of both the redeemed and the damned.

Nice try, but hilarity simply serves as refuge for a failed argument.
 
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Chi.C

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This is the best unbiased explanation I have seen.
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg
I was watching yesterday but was a little tired so only half way thru.
Thanks for the info. Interesting how early the Greek philosophies crept in. I guess I am going down the rabbit hole.
 
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Chi.C

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Not the Apostles, Jesus. Things Jesus said is what brought about the belief in "hell". Although there are those who don't think Jesus was taking about "hell" at all, but was rather giving judgement against Israel and prophesying the breaking of God's covenant for a new one with the Gentiles and the destruction of Jerusalem etc.
What in the NT indicated and immortal soul be tortured for eternity?
 
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Clare73

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I happen to think it's good news that the worm doesn't die. Where there's life there's hope. Plus worms improve the soil, so that when the farmer sows the seed, it can grow. Alleluja to the persistent worm!
Still don't understand the use of "life" in the NT?

There is neither hope nor eternal life in the second death of punishment to
eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2) of damnation.
Why isn't the fire eternal?
I give up. . .why isn't it?
It's the fire of God's love in judgment, His presence that annihilates the enemies, such as unbelief, stubbornness, pride, self-righteousness, hypocrisy and (el ultimo) death.

I love that fire.
That's the job of the new birth. He could save a lotta' heat by just giving them the new birth, like he does the redeemed to eternal life.

Nope. . .the NT presents his new birth as the only plan for redemption. . .and his fire as the only plan for damnation.
Pass me some of that Gospel truth to cure what ails me.
Oh sister lets go down, down in the river and pray.
Let's go get so wet in the waters of the Holy Spirit that the fire can't touch us!
 
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