Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

Fidelibus

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I think there are two issues here.

i) You said "I've been thinking of starting a thread on this Scripture passage; Romans 3:23 isn't a passage it's a verse, and is actually only part of a sentence. It needs to be read in the context of the passage and what has gone before.
In the first two chapters Paul has been talking about the wrath of God against mankind, God's righteous judgement and the Jews and the law. (I don't know about here, but certainly in OT times, Jews believed they would all be saved on the Day of the Lord simply because they WERE Jews; however they may have behaved, they were still chosen.) Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin, Romans 3:9 . In Romans 3:21 he says that now a righteousness apart from the law has been made known - which comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the One bringing righteousness; Paul will later say that we are justified through him and reconciled to God through his blood. ALL in verse 23 means all of us; all humans. It clearly cannot include Christ, because Jesus was only able to die for our sins because he was sinless - the spotless Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19. He is the One who is bringing the righteousness.

ii) Was Mary sinless?
My answer is 'no', because only a sinless, spotless human being could take our sins upon themselves - had that been Mary, she could have died for us and in fact Jesus would not have needed to come at all. Also, if it is said that Jesus was only sinless because Mary was, where did Mary's sinlessness come from? Her mother?



Yes - because the context makes it clear that Christ cannot be included in that. He was the only perfect person who has ever lived. Even Noah and Job in the OT who were described as righteous, cannot have been perfect, or else they would have shown that it was possible to keep the law perfectly.

Interesting, in Romans 3:10 it says, "There is none that is righteous, no not one" yet, the Bible says lost of people were righteous. So, do you believe that "none", "no not one" is an absolute as you say "all" is in Romans 3:23?
 
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Strong in Him

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Interesting, in Romans 3:10 it says, "There is none that is righteous, no not one" yet, the Bible says lost of people were righteous. So, do you believe that "none", "no not one" is an absolute as you say "all" is in Romans 3:23?

The Psalmist wrote " there IS no one who is righteous ", talking about people alive at the time.
He did not say "there has never been anyone who was righteous so don't believe the OT when it says otherwise".

Being righteous is not the same as being sinless.
If anyone had been able to keep the law perfectly, Jesus would not have come.
 
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Fidelibus

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At the disobedience, which is the point - all have sinned.



A discussion about the beginning of life, not accountability for sin, but in Adam all are under sin and death.



Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is does God make provision for them if an early death.



Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is does God make provision for them if an early death.



Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is if God makes provision for them and are we capable of saying they are incapable of sin.

But, there is a problem with that. There is a difference in being created in a state of sin, in the flesh - outside of covenant with God - as we all are when we are born and before we are baptized, and "having" sinned. "Having" sinned implies that one has committed personal sin. Romans 3:23 says that "all HAVE sinned." Babies have not sinned. The mentally handicapped have not sinned. They may be in a state of original sin, but they, personally, HAVE NOT sinned.
 
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Fidelibus

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Adam and Eve sinned. So, they are included in the all.

As for Babies, although they are ignorant of sins they commit, and so innocent in that regard, they still sin from birth.

Psalm 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth.

See Post # 103
 
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chevyontheriver

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We may be going in circles here but I will try to state the difference between sinlessness and innocence ,which is where the crux of the problem is.
"As adjectives the difference between innocent and sinless
is that innocent is free from guilt, sin, or immorality while sinless is without sin; never having sinned." God did not make Adam and Eve sinless. If that were the case He would have no need to give them a law.
The flesh is sinful. Only Jesus Christ of Nazareth was able to overcome the lust of the flesh, being tested by Satan himself , Christ overcame his temptations.
I’m not comprehending why we don’t agree but every reply of yours makes me think we don’t agree. So I’ll leave it at that.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Please substantiate the claim with more than one Greek word.

Being "saved" does not make us automatically, experientially sinless.

Using Scripture outside of your favored Luke 1:28, please point us to one human being born in Adam, that is clearly said to be sinless. Using Scripture, please point us to one human being born again in the Second Adam who is clearly said to be experientially sinless.

God by fiat could also have taken a daughter of Adam, bound by the offense of Adam, and bring forth His Son from her by His Spirit. This is more in-line with His Text than the claim you are attempting to defend.
We are talking past each other and our discussion has been unsavory enough I do not wish to continue. I feel that you have tried to put me down and I expect that would continue with any reply of mine so I’m out.
 
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setst777

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See Post # 103

How do you know babies do not sin, when the Bible says they do?

How do you know the mentally handicapped do not sin? That sounds discriminatory. Are they not humans too, even though handicapped?
 
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zoidar

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Well Z, this is not a very strong argument for a few reasons. Number one reason being, nowhere does the Bible say that all we need to know for our Christian faith can be found within the pages of the Bible. Secondly, we know that Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the apostles preformed human duties then, as we do to this day. For example, washing our faces, combing our hair, and going to the bathroom which are not recorded in Scripture. And finally, even Scripture itself tells us this in John 21:25. "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

I think my argument was quite good, since the Bible is our first choice of source, don't you agree? There might be other valid sources, sure, but none are as good and reliable as the Bible, won't you say? Is it not you that need to prove Mary was sinless, rather than I needing to prove she wasn't. I don't think I can prove she wasn't, but neither can I prove universal salvation wrong, something Origen believed in and the RCC dismissed. Nowhere does the Bible say universal salvation isn't true, yet we don't hold it as doctrine. Such an radical idea needs to be proven, not unproven, the same with Mary's sinlessness IMO. There are verses that could be understood as the Bible teaching universal salvation, but as far as Mary's sinlessness, I can't recall one verse.

Okay.... so you do believe 'all' in Romans 3:23 in an absolute.

The reason I asked Z if you were seeking God in your life, and you said ,"I seek God daily" is because in Romans 3:11 it says, "No one seeks for God." So you see Z, my reasoning is, that if "all" in verse 23 is an absolute, then "no one" in verse 11 has to also be an absolute, meaning no one seeks for God, right?

Have a Blessed day!

I like the way you reason, but think you are wrong on this. Paul is talking about the situation before we are born again, then all are sinners, none seeking God, all gone astray. After being born again we are saints, not sinners in the sense that we are not living in sin, certainly should not live in sin. Then we seek God daily, or should seek him daily. Me being righteous today, doesn't mean I wasn't a sinner yesterday. So yes, we all have sinned.
 
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renniks

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I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day
Why would we assume Mary was an exception?
 
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GDL

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We are talking past each other and our discussion has been unsavory enough I do not wish to continue. I feel that you have tried to put me down and I expect that would continue with any reply of mine so I’m out.

Good enough. So you leave this without answering a few questions asked of you, and your feelings leading. Nothing I can do about that. Thanks for the effort.
 
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setst777

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Well Z, this is not a very strong argument for a few reasons. Number one reason being, nowhere does the Bible say that all we need to know for our Christian faith can be found within the pages of the Bible.

And finally, even Scripture itself tells us this in John 21:25. "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

I felt compelled to respond to this argument as well.

Everything we need to know for our Christian faith (for our salvation) can be found within the pages of the Bible.

For instance, you mentioned John 21:25

While that is true that the Bible does not contain every act, word, and expression of Lord Jesus, even John recognizes that all that he wrote in his Gospel is fully sufficient to believe in Lord Jesus, and that by believing we may have life.

John 20:31 (WEB)
31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Beyond that:

The fullness of Gospel is in writing by the command of the eternal God so that all Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NIV)
13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

Colossians 2:1-8
1 I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally (so it has to be in writing). 2 My purpose is that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the Mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you with find sounding arguments.
. . . 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

1 Peter 1:10-12 (WEB)
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently. They prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them. 12 To them it was revealed, that they served not themselves, but you, in these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

So the fullness of the Gospel was preached, but was also written down by the Command of the Eternal God to give us complete understanding of the mystery of the Gospel, that for past ages was hidden.

And we are to earnestly contend for that faith that was once and for all revealed to us so we are not swept of by every wind of doctrine, traditions, and teachings of men, just like the Jewish leaders in Jesus' day were also warned about.

Jude 3-4 (WEB) 3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So, by reading the Scriptures in context, we can understand the fullness of the Gospel, which God meant, and commanded, to give us the full riches of complete understanding of the mystery of God’s saving grace that was still a mystery in times past, so that the Gentiles may be lead to obedience that comes from faith (Romans 15:17-19; Romans 16:25-27).

So, when I see religions and various people in past times, or even in our own days, introduce some new doctrine, tradition, or teaching not found in the Fully Revealed Word of God, I am not fooled.

They need to learn the meaning of the warning of Scripture - not to go beyond what is written.

1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV)
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Blessings
 
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chevyontheriver

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Good enough. So you leave this without answering a few questions asked of you, and your feelings leading. Nothing I can do about that. Thanks for the effort.
Thanks for the additional and expected put down.
 
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lsume

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Every Catholic I know doesn't worship Mary either.
I don’t recall saying that you worshipped Mary. Since she was blessed among woman and obviously very very special, I have no problem believing she is way ahead of me. However, that doesn’t mean that she never sinned.
 
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Fidelibus

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The Psalmist wrote " there IS no one who is righteous ", talking about people alive at the time.
He did not say "there has never been anyone who was righteous so don't believe the OT when it says otherwise".

Being righteous is not the same as being sinless.
If anyone had been able to keep the law perfectly, Jesus would not have come.

Thanks for responding, but what I asked was....... do you believe that "none", "no not one" in Romans 3:10 is an absolute as you say "all" in Romans 3:23 is an absolute? A yes or no would suffice.

Have a Blessed Day
 
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Fidelibus

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How do you know babies do not sin, when the Bible says they do?

Please show the Chapter and verse from the Bible where it says, outside of original sin, babies in the womb, babies just born, and babies under the the age of reason knowingly commit personal sin.

How do you know the mentally handicapped do not sin?

Well, if you are a believer of the Bible Alone, you should have no problem showing from Scripture where it says that mentally handicapped humans knowingly commit personal sin?
That sounds discriminatory.
What?? For believing people born severely mentally handicapped are unable to commit personal sin is being discriminatory? You may want to think that over again. ;)

Are they not humans too, even though handicapped?

Please show in my post where I suggested otherwise?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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Strong in Him

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Thanks for responding, but what I asked was....... do you believe that "none", "no not one" in Romans 3:10 is an absolute as you say "all" in Romans 3:23 is an absolute? A yes or no would suffice.

Yes - apart from Jesus, which is made clear.
All have sinned and fall short of God's glory, Romans 3:23.
 
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Fidelibus

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I don’t recall saying that you worshipped Mary.

So you would agree, we Catholics 'do not' worship Mary and those that say we do are 100% wrong?

Since she was blessed among woman and obviously very very special, I have no problem believing she is way ahead of me.

Yes, her being the Mother of God is very hard to top, if not impossible!

However, that doesn’t mean that she never sinned.

So its been said, but yet to be proven by Bible Alone adherents.

Also, did you know that even many Fathers of the Protestant Reformation believed Mary never sinned?

Have a Blessed day!
 
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BNR32FAN

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I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day

The same word translated to “all” in Romans 3:23 is also used in Mark 1:5.

“And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I’m curious if there is evidence in the scriptures that not all of Judea was coming to JTB to be baptized and confessing their sins. I don’t think it’s likely that all came to him to be baptized but I’d really like to see some solid evidence if anyone has any thoughts or scriptures to this effect. My first thought was Legion but I think he was actually outside of Judea if I’m not mistaken. But I think if we can conclude that not all in Judea came to JTB to be baptized then we can support the idea that the Greek word translated to all doesn’t always mean every single person.
 
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