Did Jesus Even Care....

FutureAndAHope

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You heard an audible voice?
If so, do you continue to hear audible voices?
If so, do you commence with any two way dialogue?
Or, is it just one way conversation, at random, by this voice?
And if so, does this voice always give you coincidental information?
Can you ever summon this voice on command?

No. I can not commence a two-way dialog. It is one-way communication. There are times however that I have sought God's will and He gives me an answer. As an example:

On the 10 of October 2012 the LORD prevented us from making a bad financial decision. Me and my wife had found a house that we thought could be a good investment for our future. But our pastor prayed about it and felt that it was not going to be a good investment. So I prayed that if it was not a good investment God would get the bible to open randomly to James 4:13-15, otherwise the bible would open to the verse in Mal 3:10 about God blessing our finances. I opened my bible on the computer and moved my hand quickly and randomly, first selecting a book of the bible, then a verse, all without looking where I was choosing, and it opened to James 4:13-15 so I knew that God did not want us to go ahead.
 
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cvanwey

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No. I can not commence a two-way dialog. It is one-way communication. There are times however that I have sought God's will and He gives me an answer. As an example:

On the 10 of October 2012 the LORD prevented us from making a bad financial decision. Me and my wife had found a house that we thought could be a good investment for our future. But our pastor prayed about it and felt that it was not going to be a good investment. So I prayed that if it was not a good investment God would get the bible to open randomly to James 4:13-15, otherwise the bible would open to the verse in Mal 3:10 about God blessing our finances. I opened my bible on the computer and moved my hand quickly and randomly, first selecting a book of the bible, then a verse, all without looking where I was choosing, and it opened to James 4:13-15 so I knew that God did not want us to go ahead.

So God sometimes intervenes on your financial decisions, but ignores millions of other requests to help the hungry?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So God sometimes intervenes on your financial decisions, but ignores millions of other requests to help the hungry?

It is not so much God does nothing to help the hungry. He encouraged my mother through her life to give to the poor. She sold all of her earthly possession and gave to the needy, including selling her home and donating the money from the home to the hungry. God has also encouraged me to give to the poor, a thing I do regularly, I give as much money as my wife allows. If I could I would sell my home, downsize get a smaller place, and donate the money to the needy. But God helps us make wise choices, wise choices put us in better financial positions, to be able to help the needy.
 
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cvanwey

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that information has been provided in the posts that others have made, no need to repeat it.

Could you at least lead me to the post number which mirrors your answer? And, did I already respond to this post, for which you may address?
 
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cvanwey

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It is not so much God does nothing to help the hungry. He encouraged my mother through her life to give to the poor. She sold all of her earthly possession and gave to the needy, including selling her home and donating the money from the home to the hungry. God has also encouraged me to give to the poor, a thing I do regularly, I give as much money as my wife allows. If I could I would sell my home, downsize get a smaller place, and donate the money to the needy. But God helps us make wise choices, wise choices put us in better financial positions, to be able to help the needy.

Sounds like you are very caring for others.

Does God limit His interventions to influencing others to do what He wants? Or, does God ever help others, without the use of other humans to do all the interaction for Him?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Sounds like you are very caring for others.

Does God limit His interventions to influencing others to do what He wants? Or, does God ever help others, without the use of other humans to do all the interaction for Him?

God generally motivates people to do His will on earth. But He does intervene in the lives of people. God may send dreams or visions to people in an attempt to give them direction, or he may heal a person of a sickness. One story I saw on the Internet was of a disabled woman, who could no longer stand to live, she cried out to God for healing, and God healed her.
 
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cvanwey

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God generally motivates people to do His will on earth. But He does intervene in the lives of people. God may send dreams or visions to people in an attempt to give them direction, or he may heal a person of a sickness. One story I saw on the Internet was of a disabled woman, who could no longer stand to live, she cried out to God for healing, and God healed her.

I'm skeptical here. I've seen stuff like this too. But whenever you dig a little bit, you find there were details omitted. I sincerely doubt this person could not clinically walk at all. However, they may have still been deemed disabled, and probably still are...

I too used to frequent churches, where a spiritual healer would be invited as a guest. He would summon God's power to heal some in the audience. One time, I decided to bring my uncle, whom has Cerebral Palsy. I asked if he could ask God to heal my uncle. His response was that he did not have time right now, and to make an appointment. I never saw him again.

Studies have been performed, to see if there exists any correlation between prayer for healing, and God's interaction. You stated "he may heal a person of a sickness.' Well, looks like he excludes, 100% of the time, cardiac patients, amputees, CP, etc...


Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

Seems as though God's healing is limited to specific tasks.
 
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A_Thinker

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... If He left behind "sufficient" evidence for His resurrection, or not?

I'd wager that even a Christian could argue both "yes" or "no".

What's your take? (Yes or no), just for starters...?

(i.e.)

{No}.... His objective was to atone for human sin, and allow for humans to be saved. He did not care if anyone actually saw such a transaction or not. And hence, why He instead requires pure faith, as Hebrews 11:1 states...

{Yes}.... He did leave behind "sufficient" evidence, and the ones whom say He did not are (fill-in-da-blank)....

The atheist might want to point out how... Is it reasonable to ask that someone take such a claim, on pure faith and 'eyewitness' evidence, when the stakes are so high?.?.?

Not sure where this thread will go...?
You know ... the more I think about it, I'm not sure that Jesus was interested in proving who He was. He, rather infamously, operated on a smaller stage than He might have.

I am beginning to become convinced that He came for those that needed him ... the poor in spirit, the downcast, the struggling, the suffering. People typically recognize a need for Him before turning to Him, ... and perhaps that's just the way He wanted it ...
 
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cvanwey

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You know ... the more I think about it, I'm not sure that Jesus was interested in proving who He was. He, rather infamously, operated on a smaller stage than He might have.

I am beginning to become convinced that He came for those that needed him ... the poor in spirit, the downcast, the struggling, the suffering. People typically recognize a need for Him before turning to Him, ... and perhaps that's just the way He wanted it ...

Okay, but if Jesus' intent was to not present proof of His divinity to all, how might He even expect for many 'poor in spirit, the downcast, the struggling, (and) the suffering', to seek after Him specifically? Many may not even know He existed; to make a conscious choice to follow or reject Him.
 
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A_Thinker

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Okay, but if Jesus' intent was to not present proof of His divinity to all, how might He even expect for many 'poor in spirit, the downcast, the struggling, (and) the suffering', to seek after Him specifically? Many may not even know He existed; to make a conscious choice to follow or reject Him.
Jesus would help people and meet their most urgent needs as He went along His way. He fed the hungry, He spent time with those who society had outcast, He healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, cast out demons, calmed storms, etc. He even provided wine at a wedding after the host's wine had run out.

It didn't take long for word to get around that Jesus was someone with whom you didn't mind crossing paths.

Jesus was/is exactly the help many people needed/need in their lives.

For myself, I needed a friend ... and Jesus has become a friend that sticks closer than a brother ...
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I'm skeptical here. I've seen stuff like this too. But whenever you dig a little bit, you find there were details omitted. I sincerely doubt this person could not clinically walk at all. However, they may have still been deemed disabled, and probably still are...

I too used to frequent churches, where a spiritual healer would be invited as a guest. He would summon God's power to heal some in the audience. One time, I decided to bring my uncle, whom has Cerebral Palsy. I asked if he could ask God to heal my uncle. His response was that he did not have time right now, and to make an appointment. I never saw him again.

Studies have been performed, to see if there exists any correlation between prayer for healing, and God's interaction. You stated "he may heal a person of a sickness.' Well, looks like he excludes, 100% of the time, cardiac patients, amputees, CP, etc...


Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

Seems as though God's healing is limited to specific tasks.

As a person who prays for the sick from time to time, I realize that God does not grant me healing, all the time. But I have had people return to me saying they received healing. Some examples:

- Woman with bad back, could not move furniture without pain, said she was healed after prayer, followed her up for a few years, to check if healing remained.
- Muslim man, who I prayed for said he received strength to his body after prayer, ask what it was to be a Christain
- Daughter of a friend had Ulcerative Colitis, prayed for, and received healing after prayer
- Disabled man whose lodge I visited and could not talk, started talking after prayer and fasting

The bible, which is God's word does not "guarantee healing", stating:

1Co 12:28 And God has put some in the church, first, Apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then those with wonder-working powers, then those with the power of taking away disease, helpers, wise guides, users of strange tongues.

Notice there are levels granted to people of gifting, some can perform great big miracles, some lesser, and some none.

I don't put much credit on the study you listed, for biblically, you can't just take a random team of prayers, and get them to intercede for people. You have to have people who actually are gifted by God.

And yes it is true the gift is rare. The reason is I have faults, in me, God can not flow through me powerfully unless I am pure of all of them. The same goes for other, people who pray for healing.
 
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cvanwey

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Jesus would help people and meet their most urgent needs as He went along His way. He fed the hungry, He spent time with those who society had outcast, He healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, cast out demons, calmed storms, etc. He even provided wine at a wedding after the host's wine had run out.

Apparently then, Jesus did not opt to go around the world. Jesus opted to stay in a confined space. I'm sure people were in need in other areas, where He chose not to go.

It didn't take long for word to get around that Jesus was someone with whom you didn't mind crossing paths ...

His objective was to perform acts to a small audience, and wait for oral tradition to spread, much later? And in the mean time, many would never know He ever existed prior to their own deaths? And some still do not think He exists today. Hence, the reason churches send some of their own to travel the globe to spread the word.
 
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cvanwey

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As a person who prays for the sick from time to time, I realize that God does not grant me healing, all the time.

Okay, pray for someone with Cerebral Palsy, Downs syndrome, and/or an amputee to be healed, and see if it EVER happens? Or better yet, see if it has ever worked for anyone else? If you can find one of these, please let me know.

The bible, which is God's word does not "guarantee healing", stating:

1Co 12:28 And God has put some in the church, first, Apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then those with wonder-working powers, then those with the power of taking away disease, helpers, wise guides, users of strange tongues.

Notice there are levels granted to people of gifting, some can perform great big miracles, some lesser, and some none.

Sure, but just as long as you ignore other Verse; such as Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, and/or John 16:23

I don't put much credit on the study you listed,

I certainly do not then put much credit in the ones you've listed ;) Mine has data to back it up. Yours is nothing more than anecdotal.


for biblically, you can't just take a random team of prayers, and get them to intercede for people. You have to have people who actually are gifted by God.

Well, again, you claim to be gifted by God. Thus, pray for someone with Downs, Cerebral Palsy, and amputees. If you ever get God to heal one of them, let me know.


And yes it is true the gift is rare. The reason is I have faults, in me, God can not flow through me powerfully unless I am pure of all of them. The same goes for other, people who pray for healing.

And yet, not one healed amputee. *head scratch*
 
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A_Thinker

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Apparently then, Jesus did not opt to go around the world. Jesus opted to stay in a confined space. I'm sure people were in need in other areas, where He chose not to go.



His objective was to perform acts to a small audience, and wait for oral tradition to spread, much later? And in the mean time, many would never know He ever existed prior to their own deaths? And some still do not think He exists today. Hence, the reason churches send some of their own to travel the globe to spread the word.
Yes ... Jesus' ministry was limited in time and space (like ours would be) ... but He manifestly impressed people far and wide ... and into the future ... with His kindness and compassion for the people He did touch ...
 
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Paulomycin

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... If He left behind "sufficient" evidence for His resurrection, or not?

I'd wager that even a Christian could argue both "yes" or "no".

What's your take? (Yes or no), just for starters...?

(i.e.)

{No}.... His objective was to atone for human sin, and allow for humans to be saved. He did not care if anyone actually saw such a transaction or not. And hence, why He instead requires pure faith, as Hebrews 11:1 states...

{Yes}.... He did leave behind "sufficient" evidence, and the ones whom say He did not are (fill-in-da-blank)....

The atheist might want to point out how... Is it reasonable to ask that someone take such a claim, on pure faith and 'eyewitness' evidence, when the stakes are so high?.?.?

Not sure where this thread will go...?

"Sufficient" is a bottomless argument from the incredulous will. The fentanyl junkie would never tell you what constitutes a sufficient dose. Likewise, the naturalism junkie will never tell you what constitutes sufficient evidence.

I watched a Zoom debate where Matt Dillahunty completely refused to listen to any historical evidence for the resurrection. All atheists do is raise the bar higher and higher until they even reject full-blown cosmologists with PhDs.
 
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cvanwey

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"Sufficient" is a bottomless argument from the incredulous will. The fentanyl junkie would never tell you what constitutes a sufficient dose. Likewise, the naturalism junkie will never tell you what constitutes sufficient evidence.

I watched a Zoom debate where Matt Dillahunty completely refused to listen to any historical evidence for the resurrection. All atheists do is raise the bar higher and higher until they even reject full-blown cosmologists with PhDs.

I would agree that it's hard to answer the question, "what would convince you that so-and-so truly exists?" Just like I would agree that it's hard to answer the question, "what would convince you that so-and-so does not truly exist?"

I myself would need some sort of 'revelation from God', for which I could examine; just for starters. I have not received as such, but many claim they have.... Claims to the "witness of the Holy Spirit" seems to be one the strongest pieces of 'evidence' for one to affirm their beliefs in God, from my experience.

BTW, I really do not follow too much of what any particular person says... If I hear good points, substantiated by "reason" and "logic", whether it be from a theist, deist, or other, I add them to my toolbox :)

P.S. As I stated before, you seem to have a real axe to grind here :( FYI, I'm here to engage people whom think differently than me.

Please take nothing I state personal. If I agreed with everything you said, I would not engage you. I want to know why our views differ, that's all :) I'm here to engage theists because I am not a theist.
 
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cvanwey

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Yes ... Jesus' ministry was limited in time and space (like ours would be) ... but He manifestly impressed people far and wide ... and into the future ... with His kindness and compassion for the people He did touch ...

Is this method a good way to reveal truth? To perform acts in front of a small populous long ago, wait for oral tradition to spread the stories, and expect all who hears these later stories to believe them?
 
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Paulomycin

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I would agree that it's hard to answer the question, "what would convince you that so-and-so truly exists?"

As the years go by,
more and more believers get wise to the fact that you people simply don't want to answer that question.

It's like that old game show, "Make Me Laugh." You're convinced that, if you shut-down hard enough internally, you can win the bed-spread, the luggage, the recliner, and the washer-dryer combo.


Just like I would agree that it's hard to answer the question, "what would convince you that so-and-so does not truly exist?"

Don't forget burden of proof. If burden of proof is on us, then no atheist would ever ask that question. Because no atheist wants to argue from that position.

I myself would need some sort of 'revelation from God', for which I could examine; just for starters.

You already received it. It's literally called "General Revelation." And you're already held liable to it.

Specifically, what you're really demanding is a personal; direct intervention from God Himself. But I can't control that, and neither can you.

Furthermore, if the God of the Bible exists, then there are individuals "prepared for destruction" (Romans 9), whom God will never personally reveal Himself to. Yet at the same time they will be held completely inexcusable for rejecting His General Revelation. In other words, just because God hasn't personally revealed Himself to you does not prove His non-existence. And you can't hold a gun to His head to make Him choose otherwise.


BTW, I really do not follow too much of what any particular person says... If I hear good points, substantiated by "reason" and "logic", whether it be from a theist, deist, or other, I add them to my toolbox :)

I'm reading this as, "I don't read people's posts, except for what I feel is useful." So thanks for that admission.

Reason and logic were already used in post #131. I'm pretty sure you've already pre-judged it as not "good."

P.S. As I stated before, you seem to have a real axe to grind here :( FYI, I'm here to engage people whom think differently than me.


FACT:
You are not a victim. You are the aggressor. You are
not here to make friends with Christians, but rather to subvert and demoralize them. You are an activist with only one agenda: To build an epistemic stronghold, raise arguments, and establish any high thing that will exalt itself against the knowledge of God. You are not at all willing to even meet me half-way on this, so let's cut the garbage. How 'bout it?

Please take nothing I state personal.

It's not personal, because it's your ideology I'm attacking. Not you. You wouldn't even be here if you weren't an idealogue.
 
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cvanwey

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FACT: You are not a victim. You are the aggressor. You are not here to make friends with Christians, but rather to subvert and demoralize them. You are an activist with only one agenda: To build an epistemic stronghold, raise arguments, and establish any high thing that will exalt itself against the knowledge of God. You are not at all willing to even meet me half-way on this, so let's cut the garbage. How 'bout it?

Congratulations! This will be my last response to you. I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you will not waiver. You think you know everyone here, who does not believe in the Bible.

Please remember, this is one of the only arenas, within this entire website, which allows for unbelievers to challenge believers. No one is asking you to be here. If you feel like you are on some sort of 'crusade' to 'defeat' all questioners, be my guest. But just know that your current tactic will likely cause for you to loose two-way exchanges with some, or more. Welp. You can now add one more to the list :) I'm sure I'm not the first, and I doubt I will be the last. Consider one less interlocutor, for which you can hurl your unfounded assertions upon.

Peace out
 
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