The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

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Eloy Craft

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You keep saying that, and I keep asking you to provide some substance for the claim, but you don't.

You could start by defining what you mean by "natural."
I did in my first posts. I mean natural in the earthly sense which is governed by the needs of survival, and in the spiritual and the theological sense as generative and passive powers of sexual reproduction. I also recommended a book The Human Zoo.
Women naturally bring forth offspring.
Men naturally commit to their maternity. The matri monial (mother-state) bond requires that environment to form. That's why consummation is necessary. These are realities natural to human life.
 
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Paidiske

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I did in my first posts. I mean natural in the earthly sense which is governed by the needs of survival,

That's not true, though. There's no reason why survival is dependent on male domination or control of women.

and in the spiritual and the theological sense as generative and passive powers of sexual reproduction.

You did claim that, yes, and I debunked it, as I recall. Women are not "passive" in sexual reproduction.

Your claims about what is "natural" do not establish any reason why patriarchy is necessary, or preferable to the alternatives.
 
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Philip_B

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The maternal environment requires the exercise and witness of the intellect for the proper raising of children.
I take it from that that you believe a paternal environment would not require the exercise and witness of the intellect for the proper raising of children. I believe that the proper raising of children requires love and patience in abundance, a steady hand when needed, and word of encouragement when possible, permission to make mistakes and try again, communication, truth and above all love and patience.

The point I was making is that the Paternal truth may be different to the lived experience. It was significantly into his adult life that Archbishop Justin Welby discovered his presumed father was not his biological progenitor. Archbishop's 'surprise' at DNA result

What I said was 'We always know who the Mother is'. If I was to phrase it in your words I might have said 'Myth only points, Truth happened!'
 
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Eloy Craft

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What I said was 'We always know who the Mother is'. If I was to phrase it in your words I might have said 'Myth only points, Truth happened!'
Ha! I like that!
We do always know the mother but so do cats and bears. Knowing the father, or the inclusion of fatherhood, requires social constructs that exercises the intellect.
 
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Gregorikos

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It is not about power like that. Patriarchy is not about power either.

It is patriarchy Divinely proclaimed or pictured using the earthen sky. God gave him the dream. The sun represents the father (primary), the moon represents the mother, and the stars represent the sons. Father is taken back by the idea that they would bow to the young son, Joseph, as it goes against the Godly order. Hence the rebuke. That is what the text is about.

The Bible is rich with messages in symbol form and we should look beyond mere words sometimes for a more complete understanding.

Patriarchy is precisely about power. That is what it means. It is a melding of two Greek words, patros, meaning father, and archon, meaning ruler. Patriarchy means father rule.
 
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Gregorikos

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The father is the sun. Source of light. Symbol of changelessness or stability. In the book of Revelation the Woman is clothed by the sun. She is glorified.
The mother is the moon. Reflects the light of the sun. The moon is a symbol of things that change. In Revelation the Woman stands on the moon. She is no longer subject to change.

Even if all your speculation is true, it only refers to Joseph's family. And it doesn't state what should be, only what is. That prophecy in no way establishes patriarchy as God's will for mankind.
 
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Ohorseman

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Patriarchy is precisely about power. That is what it means. It is a melding of two Greek words, patros, meaning father, and archon, meaning ruler. Patriarchy means father rule.

It does literally mean "the rule of the father". But not "power of the father". The father was given the authority to rule by God. The father did not seize or usurp it. Here is what I found that helped me better understand it.

Max Weber says that authority is based on the perceived legitimacy of the individual in power. Authority is inherited, but power is seized by military force.

Power is an entity's or individual's ability to control or direct others, while authority is influence that is predicated on perceived legitimacy. Consequently, power is necessary for authority, but it is possible to have power without authority .​

Maybe it is better to stay within the Bible to understand it, as we should. Due to Saul's disobedience God rejected him as king, he lost the authority to rule. David became God's anointed. Saul did not want to give up his power and resisted David in the material world, but he was really resisting or rebelling against God. Though Saul was given chances for him and his family to be preserved under David, Saul would not give up his power . Saul turned to the world, even the occult. Eventually he fell upon his own spear before his enemies. In this narrative we glean differences between power and authority to rule.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Even if all your speculation is true, it only refers to Joseph's family. And it doesn't state what should be, only what is. That prophecy in no way establishes patriarchy as God's will for mankind.
It reveals God's order. It's not speculative. It's exactly what Sacred Scripture reveals about the human family. Unless you disagree with Joseph's and Jacob's interpretation of the dream it means the human family is patriarchal according to the order God established since the Beginning.
 
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Paidiske

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It reveals God's order. It's not speculative. It's exactly what Sacred Scripture reveals about the human family. Unless you disagree with Joseph's and Jacob's interpretation of the dream it means the human family is patriarchal according to the order God established since the Beginning.

Not at all. It shows that it was a patriarchal family, but it in no way says that that was "God's order" rather than sinful fallen humanity's order.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Not at all. It shows that it was a patriarchal family, but it in no way says that that was "God's order" rather than sinful fallen humanity's order.
That the family is symbolized by universal order means it is the order God established.
 
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Paidiske

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That the family is symbolized by universal order means it is the order God established.

Not at all. For example, we would need to start by noting that Jacob had multiple wives, which is not the order God established.
 
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Gregorikos

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It does literally mean "the rule of the father". But not "power of the father".

You're making a distinction where there is no difference.

Authority is defined as:

authority noun (POWER) - - Cambridge Dictionary

Power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior. - Merriam Webster Dictionary

The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience. -Oxford Dictionary

The father was given the authority to rule by God.

WHEN? WHEN did this happen? I'll let you give the verse reference this time.

Max Weber says that authority is based on the perceived legitimacy of the individual in power. Authority is inherited, but power is seized by military force.​
Max Weber is full of baloney. The only people with power are those who seized it by military force? One can't come to power by election, inheritance, or wealth? That nonsense is laughable!

Max Weber again said:

Power is an entity's or individual's ability to control or direct others, while authority is influence that is predicated on perceived legitimacy. Consequently, power is necessary for authority, but it is possible to have power without authority .​
I'm going to invite Max to consult any dictionary of the English language to see if he can find one where the definition of authority doesn't include the word "power."

Maybe it is better to stay within the Bible to understand it, as we should. Due to Saul's disobedience God rejected him as king, he lost the authority to rule. David became God's anointed. Saul did not want to give up his power and resisted David in the material world, but he was really resisting or rebelling against God. Though Saul was given chances for him and his family to be preserved under David, Saul would not give up his power . Saul turned to the world, even the occult. Eventually he fell upon his own spear before his enemies. In this narrative we glean differences between power and authority to rule.

Great story bro. But what has that to do with your contention that patriarchy isn't about power? Nothing, of course.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Not at all. For example, we would need to start by noting that Jacob had multiple wives, which is not the order God established.
Polygamy is not the ideal but not intrinsically evil. There are situations within possibility that it can be a good. War for example could reduce the male population to 1 male for every 10 females. A good pastoral decision may allow it in order to avoid scandalizing the 9 women that will be denied marriage. Even so, it doesn't violate the order of authority as established by God.
 
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Paidiske

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Polygamy is not the ideal but not intrinsically evil. There are situations within possibility that it can be a good. War for example could reduce the male population to 1 male for every 10 females. A good pastoral decision may allow it in order to avoid scandalizing the 9 women that will be denied marriage. Even so, it doesn't violate the order of authority as established by God.

My point was simply that because we see something in Jacob's family, does not mean it is either the ideal, or right. God did not establish polygamy. God did not establish patriarchy, either.
 
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Gregorikos

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God did not establish polygamy. God did not establish patriarchy, either.

It appears to me that polygamy began as a direct result of patriarchy. Patriarchy began in Genesis 3:16 as part of the fall. Polygamy began only 26 verses later. (4:19) Lamech did it because he could.
 
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Philip_B

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We sing the wonder of monogamy revealed in Genesis 2:24.

We sing gladly of David's line.


...


but


The Book of Chronicles lists his sons with his various wives and concubines. In Hebron, David had six sons:
  1. Amnon, by Ahinoam;
  2. Daniel, by Abigail;
  3. Absalom, by Maachah;
  4. Adonijah, by Haggith;
  5. Shephatiah, by Abital; and
  6. Ithream, by Eglah.
By Bathsheba, his sons were
  1. Shammua,
  2. Shobab,
  3. Nathan, and
  4. Solomon.
David's sons born in Jerusalem of his other wives included
  1. Ibhar,
  2. Elishua,
  3. Eliphelet,
  4. Nogah,
  5. Nepheg,
  6. Japhia,
  7. Elishama and
  8. Eliada.
Jerimoth, who is not mentioned in any of the genealogies, is mentioned as another of his sons in 2 Chronicles 11:18.

His daughter Tamar, by Maachah, is raped by her half-brother Amnon.
David fails to bring Amnon to justice for his violation of Tamar, because he is his firstborn and he loves him, and so, Absalom (her full brother) murders Amnon to avenge Tamar.
In all honesty, this is pretty pedestrian even by todays standards. I can't imagine what the family tree would look like if you included to women. But of course in a Patriarchal society you don't have to worry about that.
 
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Ohorseman

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You're making a distinction where there is no difference.
The distinction was made long before I pointed it out. Maybe this will help. It's got Greek words, so you should like it.
terryeckersley2014

And in this link, G. K. Chesterton is quoted.
The secret of authority
Great story bro. But what has that to do with your contention that patriarchy isn't about power? Nothing, of course.
Patriarchy involves power but it is about authority... not about power itself. That was Saul's mistake.


This definition is taken from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy#:~:text=Patriarchy literally means "the rule,domination, authority, sovereignty".
Here is a copy and paste from the link.

Etymology and usage[edit]
Patriarchy literally means "the rule of the father"[7][8] and comes from the Greek πατριάρχης (patriarkhēs),[9] "father or chief of a race",[10] which is a compound of πατριά (patria), "lineage, descent"[11] (from πατήρ patēr, "father"[12]) and ἀρχή (arkhē), "domination, authority, sovereignty".[13]

Historically, the term patriarchy has been used to refer to autocratic rule by the male head of a family; however, since the late 20th century it has also been used to refer to social systems in which power is primarily held by adult men,[14][15][16] particularly by writers associated with second-wave feminism such as Kate Millett; these writers sought to use an understanding of patriarchal social relations to liberate women from male domination.[17][18] This concept of patriarchy was developed to explain male dominance as a social, rather than biological, phenomenon.[15]​

I do not agree with Kate Millett.
 
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Gregorikos

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The distinction was made long before I pointed it out. Maybe this will help. It's got Greek words, so you should like it.
terryeckersley2014

And in this link, G. K. Chesterton is quoted.
The secret of authority
Patriarchy involves power but it is about authority... not about power itself. That was Saul's mistake.


This definition is taken from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy#:~:text=Patriarchy literally means "the rule,domination, authority, sovereignty".
Here is a copy and paste from the link.

Etymology and usage[edit]
Patriarchy literally means "the rule of the father"[7][8] and comes from the Greek πατριάρχης (patriarkhēs),[9] "father or chief of a race",[10] which is a compound of πατριά (patria), "lineage, descent"[11] (from πατήρ patēr, "father"[12]) and ἀρχή (arkhē), "domination, authority, sovereignty".[13]

Historically, the term patriarchy has been used to refer to autocratic rule by the male head of a family; however, since the late 20th century it has also been used to refer to social systems in which power is primarily held by adult men,[14][15][16] particularly by writers associated with second-wave feminism such as Kate Millett; these writers sought to use an understanding of patriarchal social relations to liberate women from male domination.[17][18] This concept of patriarchy was developed to explain male dominance as a social, rather than biological, phenomenon.[15]​

I do not agree with Kate Millett.


I'm not going to argue against incoherency and absurdity, so I'll let this one be.
 
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Eloy Craft

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It appears to me that polygamy began as a direct result of patriarchy. Patriarchy began in Genesis 3:16 as part of the fall. Polygamy began only 26 verses later. (4:19) Lamech did it because he could.
Not really. Polygamy began in Cain's line and is what happens when brothers are competitive. As vengeful people tend to be. Competitive to the point of violence according to the first recorded polygamist Lamech. Descendant of Cain who learnt he is the product of his mother.
 
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