The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Lazarus Short said:

Thank you for answering one question out of three.

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All three were answered fully. . .evidently not with the answers you wanted.

Shrewd Manager said:

The old 'adults only Bible', eh?
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mt 11:25
God expects us to not bring our worldly pride to the interpretation of scripture, but to take His word

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Except when you are offended by what it teaches; e.g., Mark 9:47-48, and then try to confound the use of its words to defend unbelief.

for the incredible promises He makes, for instance:
have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23, as reiterated and revealed in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:9-10).
Now if God tells me the earth is flat and He's going to convert everyone, who am I to question? Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (Job 38:4)

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Except when Jesus warns of the unquenchable fire awaiting the damned (Mark 9:47-48), then it's time not only to question, but to confound and misrepresent words' meanings for the sake of overturning Jesus, employing this charade of verses as "proof" that the meaning of aoinois is not "eternal."

But it turns out that aoinois (age-lasting) is used in none of those "proof" verses, rather another word is used whose meaning is not age-lasting (eternal).

Whereas, examples of the NT usage of aionios to mean "eternal" are illustrated in:

1) the eternal resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1) is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53),
2) eternal life (John 3:16) is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:53),
3) Christ's eternal kingdom (2 Peter 1:11) is without end (Luke 1:33),
4) eternal sin is never forgiven sin (Mark 3:29),
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season, ending), what is unseen is eternal (opposite of ending)
(2 Corinthians 4:18)

Now we know what eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2), eternal damnation (Mark 3:29) and eternal fire (Jude 7) mean.

So to quote the one who shall remain nameless: "But don't ever let that stop you from trying."

So do you have the courage to let God be true and every man a liar?

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So do you?

Physician, heal thyself!

Saint Steven said:

So your vote is for Annihilationism then?
What does that say about your definition of what the Bible is about? God's plan for global genocide?

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The bible is a explanation of reality to the faithful.

The Transtemporal (Omniscient, Omnipotent) Creator explaining reality to His intelligent creatures (bound in the time-space continuum) what's what in the universe because the Deity is Omnibenevolent (does not want the creature to despair). That is why the scriptures contain Prophecy (transtemporal view of the future), history (precedence), Law (mechanism to maintain the Purpose of reality), and Christ (Means to fulfill the Purpose of reality).

Hint of Purpose
First book Genesis - Keywords Adam, tree of life (denied)
Last book Revelation - Keywords Christ, tree of life (returned)

Adam's actions caused the denial of the tree of life. He surely died about 900 years later. The descriptor "global genocide" is kind of of an exaggeration. The death and destruction of of the sixth trumpet of revelations is the necessary condition to maintain the Purpose. Revelation speaks of the last and final hegemon flip. State power (elohim of the anti-christs) will be vanquished. There is no room in the Purpose for the beast and it's cogs marked by 666. Revelation 22 shows Christ's sacrifice returned the tree of life. Keeping the cogs who like eating from the tree of knowledge of what is up and down and all around, would not serve the Purpose at this time.

Shrewd Manager said:

How does that view address the Great White Throne Judgment? Generally annihilationism teaches that God wakes the sinner up...just to kill him again (after forcing him to his knees to confess). The mind boggles.

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I doesn't because I wasn't giving the annihilation scenario. How does my hypothesis work in conjunction with the WTJ? I didn't think it through that far. But I bet somebody has.

Shrewd Manager said:

The old 'adults only Bible', eh?

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mt 11:25)

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Damnation-ism, Annihil-ism, Ultimate Redemption(ism). Where is "bible" in the three choices?

I will go with your misunderstanding of the verse. An "ism" indicates ideology. So in your world a child is best suited to understand and express an ideology? So Greta Thunberg is ideal to explain anthropogenic global warming? With COVID 19, she is now an expert in epidemiology! How dare you!

Shrewd Manager said:

God expects us to not bring our worldly pride to the interpretation of scripture, but to take His word for the incredible promises He makes, for instance:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23, as reiterated and revealed in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:9-10).

Now if God tells me the earth is flat and He's going to convert everyone, who am I to question?

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I will go with your misunderstanding of the verse. Two creations of the Creator cannot contradict. What universe and codex are you espousing?

Shrewd Manager said:

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

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Shrewd Manager said:

(Job 38:4)

So do you have the courage to let God be true and every man a liar?

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I have enough faith to believe Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and is our Saviour. I have enough courage to say the Scriptures are inerrant. I have enough wisdom to know a lie when I see it.

Chi.C said:

Damnation-ism, Annihil-ism, Ultimate Redemption(ism). Where is "bible" in the three choices?

I will go with your misunderstanding of the verse. An "ism" indicates ideology. So in your world a child is best suited to understand and express an ideology? So Greta Thunberg is ideal to explain anthropogenic global warming? With COVID 19, she is now an expert in epidemiology! How dare you!


I will go with your misunderstanding of the verse. Two creations of the Creator cannot contradict. What universe and codex are you espousing?


I have enough faith to believe Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and is our Saviour. I have enough courage to say the Scriptures are inerrant. I have enough wisdom to know a lie when I see it.

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The three Christian views of hell (damnation, annihilation and universal redemption) have all been in existence since the first century. All three views are supported by scripture.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Clare73 said:

All three were answered fully. . .evidently not with the answers you wanted.

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Do you really think so? From my POV, you side-stepped on two, but one direct answer out of three is better than average. Most folks NEVER give a direct answer to a direct question.

Lazarus Short said:

Do you really think so? From my POV, you side-stepped on two, but one direct answer out of three is better than average. Most folks NEVER give a direct answer to a direct question.

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You don't understand if those two are a yes or no?

They are a yes or no, plus; i.e., a much fuller answer and more informative than a simple yes or no.

MMXX said:

The three Christian views of hell (damnation, annihilation and universal redemption) have all been in existence since the first century. All three views are supported by scripture.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

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The concept of hell will have to be explained with sheol Ecclesiastes 9:10.
Please show me "hell" in the scriptures. No extra biblical explanations please.

Clare73 said:

Not according to Paul, who says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
(2 Corinthians 5:8).

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Talking to Christians, wasn't he? "the gift of God is eternal life", we receive eternal life as a gift, not as standard issue.\

I see only life (of the spirit) after physical death in the NT, in the redeemed, according to Paul,
as well as in the unredeemed, according to Jesus in Luke 16:22-24, Mark 9:47-48.

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Neither of those passages speaks of eternal life at all, do they?

So where in Scripture do you find this pattern for annihilation of being, for anyone?

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In every mention of death. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life under torture, because eternal life is the gift of God. Simple contrast, death v life.

So the damned are not immortal, only the redeemed are immortal, right?

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Correct. No one is immortal by default. The blessed are granted the gift of eternal life by God, just as Scripture says.

So the damned are raised from the dead in new bodies just long enough to be judged at the final judgment and then annihilated?

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You believe they're to be brought up from hell to be judged and then chucked back into hell? Really?

I say universal immortality makes more sense than that.

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Yes, of course you say so. .

then there's the teaching of Jesus

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" And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Could it be that when He said, destroy, He meant destroy?

and Paul.

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"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Could it be that when he said, death, he meant death?[/quote]

Clare73 said:

Nice conflaguration. . .

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Sure it wasn't fraternizationizing?

It is your ignorance of Scripture that complicates it.

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Physician, heal thyself.

Uh. . .I'm thinkin' not "possibly" but absolutely, the worst thing is your faulty reading of Genesis. . .Adam lost spiritual life in the fall, the Hebrew reads: "Dying, (spiritually), you will die (physically)." (Genesis 2:17)

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And you only had to make a couple of small modification to the Scripture to draw that amazing conclusion! True constabularization!

You're right about that! . . .since Adam lost the Spirit of eternal life

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The Spirit of eternal life, so often spoken of in Scripture. <Laff>

the moment he rebelled, Adam damned himself.

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Yeah, because God had told them "ye shall not surely die"...oh, wait.

And it is your own non-sense that is the blasphemy!

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Sorry, but refusing to believe your hand-wrought reasoning is in no way blasphempous, unless of course you're God, which - this just in - you aren't.

Clare73 said:

How about Matthew 18:34--"delivered to the tormentors (to the jailers to be tortured) until he pay his debt? This is what my heavenly Father will do to each one of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."

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Wht does "until" mean in your language?

Clare73 said:

Anathema!

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Pronouncing anathemas on those who reject your ridiculous "interpretation" of Scripture? Dang, the first female pope! Were you speaking ex cathedra? You need to let us know when you are so we have prostrate ourselves before you <ROFL>

Clare73 said:

God-breathed are the words on the paper, and they are what is being questioned.

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Nah, what's being rejected is your doctrine, which is bogus, and not in accord with God's Word.

Clare73 said:

God is not mocked by this charade.

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God isn't mocked by anything. He's God.

Clare73 said:

Denying the words themselves is faithless, defending the words differently is believing them, differently.

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Yet you deny that the wages of sin is death. Naughty naughty.

Clare73 said:

Anathema! . . .it's time to stop this ruse!

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Call up the Inquisition! Heretics to the stake! Clare Vult!

Clare73 said:

Very little of the gospels is devoted to the destruction of Jerusalem.

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Ever read the Olivet Discourse?

Clare73 said:

Jesus warns of the unquenchable fire awaiting the damned

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Yep, the fire isn't going to go out, and there'll be enough worms to go around. Doesn't say anything about those hove into the fire living there forever, does it? You just made that part up and stuck a "thus sayeth the Lord" on it.

Can I have one of those anathemas you have there? I wanna chuck some of them back at you.

Jipsah said:

Talking to Christians, wasn't he? "the gift of God is eternal life", we receive eternal life as a gift, not as standard issue.

Neither of those passages speaks of eternal life at all, do they?

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The issue here is not eternal life, it's "universal" immortality.

Jesus couldn't have made immortality for all any clearer than in his parable of Luke 16, where he assumes immortality of spirit after death, for both men are conscious in their immortal state after death, Lazarus in the place of the blessed, and the rich man in the place of the damned, in torment and agony of fire.

The immortal spirit of Lazarus is in eternal life (spiritual life in union with God), while
the immortal spirit of the rich man is in second death (spiritual life separated from God).

Jesus presents immortality of both the redeemed and the damned. And we find the two immortal eternal destinies reflected in his teaching throughout the NT.

Regarding eternal life:

Eternal life = God's own life
Spiritual life = eternal (God's own) life in one's spirit (lost when Adam fell)
Spiritual death = no eternal (God's own) life in one's spirit, living spiritual separation from God, we are born in spiritual death, raised to spiritual life in the new birth
Second death = living unending spiritual separation from God, eternal damnation (Mark 3:29), eternal death

Immortality of the spirit and eternal life/second death of the spirit are not the same thing.
Immortal is simply the constitution/nature of the human spirit, it never dies.
Eternal life and second death are the destinies of that immortal human spirit, neither of which is cessation of its life, but are opposite poles of spiritual life.

In every mention of death. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life under torture, because eternal life is the gift of God. Simple contrast, death v life.

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Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit. Spiritual death is absence of God's life in one's spirit.
We are born in spiritual death. If that condition is not reversed by being born again into spiritual life (eternal life), we go to the final judgment in spiritual death, where we are then condemned to the punishment of the second death--eternal damnation (Mark 3:29), eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2), eternal fire (Jude 7), eternal separation from God.

The wages of Adam's sin (his guilt being imputed to us--Romans 5:18), is both spiritual death and physical death, and all mankind being the progeny of Adam are born in spiritual death and subject to physical death.
The consequences of the spirit not being born again into eternal life is the second death, which Jesus presents as consciousness in the parable, where the immortal spirit of the rich man is in the agony and torment of fire.

Again, Jesus couldn't have made conscious second death and eternal life any more clear.

Second death does not mean the death of existence, it means no eternal life; i.e., fellowship with God, for ever.

Correct. No one is immortal by default. The blessed are granted the gift of eternal life by God, just as Scripture says.

You believe they're to be brought up from hell to be judged and then chucked back into hell? Really?
Yes, of course you say so. .

" And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Could it be that when He said, destroy, He meant destroy?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Could it be that when he said, death, he meant death?

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