Old-School Pentecostals and Wesleyan Holiness Christians

My family on my mother's side were Wesleyan Holiness. No makeup, no pants for the women. No dancing, smoking, drinking, or dating girls that do. It is (or, was when I was a kid) very much as you described. It reminds one of a cross between Pentecostal and Mennonite. Camp meetings were a big thing early on (way back). And, I kind of grew up around that revival spirit. We spent a lot of time in Wilmore, KY, which was an old camp meeting place. There's still a lot of Holiness folks in that area. Somewhat related: I was at the Ichthus Festival when I was probably 3 years old, lol ('75?).

anna ~ grace said:

Similar to what the early Methodists would do.

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The altar call is a significant moment in the Holiness tradition. It has roots in the mourners bench and the Great Awakening, I think. The idea that one can give an account of their conversion experience matters, too. It is both a point of assurance (i.e. I had the experience) and a primary means of witnessing, (i.e. I can share my experience).

anna ~ grace said:

Thank you for this! I think this is essentially where “born again” as “having an emotional conversation experience” began.

It’s interesting to read Wesley’s theology, because he seems to struggle with justification by faith alone (a cornerstone Protestant idea) and his conviction that works have something to do with salvation.

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Yeah, I think the methodical approach early on by John, Charles, and their group (which led to the name) hits on that struggle. But John's experience, as you probably know, happened at Aldersgate Street, where he felt his heart strangely warmed and believed that God's grace was given for him, too. It's that kind of experience that the Holiness tradition pretty much rests on, creates, and re-creates. They want to revive that initial love/rapture, and then pursue the 'second blessing of grace' where even the tendency to sin is removed. Keep in mind, the Holiness movement believes in Christian perfection, which is something Wesley did struggle with. All my observation, of course. Grain of salt.

anna ~ grace said:

Hey, guys. Long thread title.

Just wanted to share this with you guys. When I first came to Christ, I attended a number of Pentecostal churches. Where some of the women were old-school and wore long denim jeans, had long hair, and generally dressed modestly and prayed often.

I also got to attend a Wesleyan Holiness church which was absolutely fascinating. They reminded me of a combination of conservative Mennonites and Pentecostals. The women dressed very conservatively, and some even made their own clothes. The prayer style was very Pentecostal. Pleas for God to bless heal, and move, and very emotional, with groaning and crying out. No tongues, though. It was very much like a Pentecostal service, but no tongues.

What do you guys think of the hard-core, old-school Wesleyan Holiness Christians?

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Good intentions but incredibly legalistic. I'm glad that most Wesleyan-Holiness churches like the Wesleyan Church and the Church of the Nazarene are not like that today.

anna ~ grace said:

Hey, guys. Long thread title.

Just wanted to share this with you guys. When I first came to Christ, I attended a number of Pentecostal churches. Where some of the women were old-school and wore long denim jeans, had long hair, and generally dressed modestly and prayed often.

I also got to attend a Wesleyan Holiness church which was absolutely fascinating. They reminded me of a combination of conservative Mennonites and Pentecostals. The women dressed very conservatively, and some even made their own clothes. The prayer style was very Pentecostal. Pleas for God to bless heal, and move, and very emotional, with groaning and crying out. No tongues, though. It was very much like a Pentecostal service, but no tongues.

What do you guys think of the hard-core, old-school Wesleyan Holiness Christians?

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It gets even more confusing with some of these rural churches that call themselves "Holiness Churches" without mentioning that they ARE Pentecostals. There were a number of them where I lived in southeast Illinois, but I have yet to find something similar near St. Louis now. They can be a bit legalistic, but I'd take them in a heartbeat over many of the "contemporary" churches.

Rawtheran said:

I'm glad that most Wesleyan-Holiness churches like the Wesleyan Church and the Church of the Nazarene are not like that today.

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The Church of the Nazarene still holds to "sanctification" (aka Christian perfection) as a core tenet of doctrine, even asking ministerial candidates to list the moment when they were sanctified. Realizing that the teaching over-promised and under-delivered, there is a trend toward softening the definition a bit, but it's really nuanced.

actionsub said:

The Church of the Nazarene still holds to "sanctification" (aka Christian perfection) as a core tenet of doctrine, even asking ministerial candidates to list the moment when they were sanctified. Realizing that the teaching over-promised and under-delivered, there is a trend toward softening the definition a bit, but it's really nuanced.

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As someone going through the Ministerial process in the Church of the Nazarene I can confirm that this is pretty accurate although the Nazarene understanding of Entire Sanctification really has always been in flux to be honest with a new definition coming out every generation or so. The trend now is that its being seen more as something that is progressive instead of a crisis moment

Rawtheran said:

As someone going through the Ministerial process in the Church of the Nazarene I can confirm that this is pretty accurate although the Nazarene understanding of Entire Sanctification really has always been in flux to be honest with a new definition coming out every generation or so. The trend now is that its being seen more as something that is progressive instead of a crisis moment

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I recently jumped the fence from the UMC's to the Nazarenes. Between the old-school "eradication" language and newer writings on the subject, this was the hardest part for me to wrap my head around. Our pastor tends to speak more in terms of the "sanctification" crisis moment being more of a starting point than an endpoint.

Rawtheran said:

As someone going through the Ministerial process in the Church of the Nazarene I can confirm that this is pretty accurate although the Nazarene understanding of Entire Sanctification really has always been in flux to be honest with a new definition coming out every generation or so. The trend now is that its being seen more as something that is progressive instead of a crisis moment

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I was under the impression that John Wesley never claimed to be sanctified nor did he claim anyone he knew had been. His take on perfection or "entire sanctification" was that we should desire it in this life, pray for it, but that it was a gift of God. The idea that all clergy in a denomination have to claim it seems problematic for me. Would a person who had be sanctified know they had been?

Methodized said:

I was under the impression that John Wesley never claimed to be sanctified nor did he claim anyone he knew had been. His take on perfection or "entire sanctification" was that we should desire it in this life, pray for it, but that it was a gift of God. The idea that all clergy in a denomination have to claim it seems problematic for me. Would a person who had be sanctified know they had been?

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A little context. During revival meetings and such, people in holiness churches are invited to come to the altar and pray for sanctification. As it is something that is claimed by faith, such a person can generally name the moment when they "received" it.

actionsub said:

A little context. During revival meetings and such, people in holiness churches are invited to come to the altar and pray for sanctification. As it is something that is claimed by faith, such a person can generally name the moment when they "received" it.

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Interesting. Clearly one of the differences between Methodism and the Nazarene Church. We have no teaching that you can obtain total sanctification simply by praying for it.

Even the Apostle Paul had a thorn in the flesh which God had not removed for him. I can't see Paul claiming total sanctification.

anna ~ grace said:

What do you guys think of the hard-core, old-school Wesleyan Holiness Christians?

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They sound like good guys but lack the fullness.

Methodized said:

Interesting. Clearly one of the differences between Methodism and the Nazarene Church. We have no teaching that you can obtain total sanctification simply by praying for it.

Even the Apostle Paul had a thorn in the flesh which God had not removed for him. I can't see Paul claiming total sanctification.

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I realize it's been a month now since I responded, but this particular teaching in the Nazarenes is still hard for me to wrap my brain around, for the reasons you cite.

actionsub said:

I realize it's been a month now since I responded, but this particular teaching in the Nazarenes is still hard for me to wrap my brain around, for the reasons you cite.

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I know the thread has the term "old school Pentecostals." But, Pentecostalism, like the Amish, is a more conservative spinoff of a less conservative original faith. Wesley never asked women not to cut their hair, etc. But Pentecostalism came out of the Methodist movement.

Amish are more conservative in dress etc. than Mennonites but the Mennonites are the original group, not the Amish.

I attended a Church of God, Anderson IN congregation for over 25 years until about 5 years ago.
Early on, they preached holiness, entire sanctification, but the last 10 years I was there, the church shifted away from that theology, and is unrecognizable from the seeker friendly churches.









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Wesley got his teaching of entire sanctification originally from the early church fathers but it was known as Theosis then. It did not travel to the west in its full sense, as the ECF said it occured in three steps or stages, whereas with evangelicals it has been reduced to two steps in the main.

The second stage of Illumination, after a period of conviction of sin in the believer, but before the full union with Christ and the eradication of sin, is l believe where Wesley was at, having the doctrine revealed by God as the truth, and which enables one to resist conscious sin, has been likewise mistakenly by many.

It has given the holiness movement a bad name when others see sin remaining in those who claim to be without it because they don't have fully developed discernment yet. I think Charles was more Illumined than John.

JW did meet with some who really were entirely sanctified and kept records of them.