WHAT IS THE REAL GOSPEL?

Nathan@work said:

Maybe it is the difference in how we can define struggling.

There is a struggle when you hold on to something and won’t let go till you defeat it.

Then there is a struggle when something is trying to hold on to you, and you are ‘resisting’ it.

We lay aside the sin that clings to us because of our flesh. That would be the second type of struggle - probably better understood as resisting.

Just because you are following the Spirit does not mean you will not be tempted to sin. Jesus was tempted, and always resisted it.

Does that mean He struggled? Not in one sense of the word, yet in another we know He did.

Jesus ‘endured’ the cross. That is to say He persevered to stay on it. You cannot persevere if there is nothing to oppose.

So our ‘struggle’ against sin is to not let temptation lead us away - we persevere towards Faith which is to resist sin that would lead us away.

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LoveGodsWord said:

I am sorry Nathan I checked your post and it does not answer my questions to you that I could find in it. What does post # 486 answer in regards to the questions I have asked you? - Nothing. Maybe you got it mixed up with another post? Like I said earlier if you do not want to answer the questions asked of you just say so. You do not have to if you do not want to. Please do not pretend though that you have answered my questions to you when you clearly have not. I am only asking these questions in order to have a friendly discussion with you. I am happy to answer them and provide scriptures that give the answers if you do not know the answers to the questions asked of you. I have responded and answered everyone of your questions that I am aware of. What ones do you claim I may have missed?

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pescador said:

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." Hebrews 4:10

That is as clearly and plainly stated as anything in the entire Bible. There is no need for any Christian to continue to struggle with sin. What is it about "ceased from his own works" that is so confusing to you?

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LoveGodsWord said:

Well that is not true Nathan. Your post # 595 only makes accusations about misquoting scripture without providing scripture or showing what it is you believe I have misquoted. Neither does your post address a single scripture in the post you are responding to. Let me know when you want to have a serious discussion and you have scripture to share as all you have provided so far as posted earlier is your opinion and accusations unsupported by scripture disagreeing with the scriptures shared with you. So of course we will have to agree to disagree.

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According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

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Nathan@work said:

I never agree to disagree.

You may agree to disagree with me, but I never will to you or anyone else.

#595 was a reply to your question. I have no opinion on the passage you asked about. It is simple and straight forward. If you do not like that answer I am sorry.

I am not sure how you get I am saying something untrue. You said;



Hebrews does not say the Sabbath day of creation is from the foundation of the world. That is what you are misquoting.

Hebrew says although His work was finished from the foundation of the world.

This is a direct reference to Christ being crucified from the foundation of the world. Gods work, Christ being crucified, was finished before He made the world.

God rested on the seventh day to show us we should rest from our labors in Christ.

The weekly Sabbath was given to Israel as a sign that they kept to keep them focused on the coming Christ. Now that He has come, our rest is not in a day of the week, but in Christ.

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pescador said:

I am not sure where you came up with your explanation because it's not in the Bible. There is no scriptural basis for saying that the weekly Sabbath was given to Israel as a sign that they kept to keep them focused on the coming Christ. They had no idea of "the coming Christ". They were focused, then and now, on keeping the Mosaic law; keeping the Sabbath was part of that law.

Where is this "direct reference to Christ being crucified from the foundation of the world. Gods work, Christ being crucified, was finished before He made the world". Jesus was crucified in approximately 33 CE, not "from the foundation of the world".

Where in your Bible does it say that the weekly Sabbath was given to Israel as a sign that they kept to keep them focused on the coming Christ? It's not in my Bible.

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Nathan@work said:

The weekly Sabbath observance was in the law correct?

Exodus 35:1-3 (ESV) Moses assembled all the congregation of the people of Israel and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do. Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.”

What was the law given to them for? It was to guard them until the promised Messiah came.

Galatians 3:24 (ESV) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

God knew before He created mankind that we would sin and He gave us His Son before the foundations of the earth was made.

Ephesians 1:3-4 (ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

1 Peter 1:20-21 (ESV) He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:5-9 (ESV) And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

It may be easier for you to see from a different translation.

Revelation 13:8 (YLT) And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

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pescador said:

Ancient Israel was not given the law to guard them until the promised Messiah came. They didn't have Paul's letter to the Galatians, or any of the New Testament. They were given the law to define their appropriate conduct according to God.

Many in Israel disobeyed God's commands. They had no idea of the person of Christ, since when He came He was rejected by most of Israel, including such serious students as Saul (who later became Paul).

Acts 9:1-5, "Meanwhile Saul, still breathing out threats to murder the Lord’s disciples, went to the high priest and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, either men or women, he could bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he was going along, approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” So he said, “Who are you, Lord?” He replied, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting!

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Nathan@work said:

Who was the law guarding if it was not guarding the ones it was given to?

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pescador said:

It was guarding those whom God had chosen in advance to be His children, not to all who heard it.

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LoveGodsWord said:

You of course are free to do whatever you like dear friend. That does not change the meaning of the scriptures shared with you or does it make them disappear.

No. It was an accusation unsupported by scripture which was not an answer to the questions asked of you. You saying it is does not change this fact which is why I said if you believe it does that is fine we will agree to disagree as I believe an accusation unsupported by scripture is not an answer but an accusation that is your opinion that is against the scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with you.

Well that is not true. You do know I simply quoted the scriptures right?

Hebrews 4:3-5 [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The reference here is to Genesis 2:1-3 if your interested.

No. The context of the scriptures provided above disagree with your claims here showing your misrepresenting the scriptures provided. Hebrews 4:3-5 are in reference to the works finished from the foundation of the world, God's rest and the seventh day! (scripture provided verbatim above). Like I said earlier if you do not want to answer the questions asked of you then you do not have to or if you disagree we can agree to disagree but please do not say you have answered my questions asked of you when you clearly have not and have only made accusations not supported by scripture. I am also happy to answer my questions to you if you do not know what the answers are if your interested.

Hope this helps

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LoveGodsWord said:

You of course are free to do whatever you like dear friend. That does not change the meaning of the scriptures shared with you or does it make them disappear.

No. It was an accusation unsupported by scripture which was not an answer to the questions asked of you. You saying it is does not change this fact which is why I said if you believe it does that is fine we will agree to disagree as I believe an accusation unsupported by scripture is not an answer but an accusation that is your opinion that is against the scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with you.

Well that is not true. You do know I simply quoted the scriptures right?

Hebrews 4:3-5 [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The reference here is to Genesis 2:1-3 if your interested.

No. The context of the scriptures provided above disagree with your claims here showing your misrepresenting the scriptures provided. Hebrews 4:3-5 are in reference to the works finished from the foundation of the world, God's rest and the seventh day! (scripture provided verbatim above). Like I said earlier if you do not want to answer the questions asked of you then you do not have to or if you disagree we can agree to disagree but please do not say you have answered my questions asked of you when you clearly have not and have only made accusations not supported by scripture. I am also happy to answer my questions to you if you do not know what the answers are if your interested.

Hope this helps

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Nathan@work said:

So you believe He was choosing some of Israel, but not all of them?

So the ones He was choosing the law guarded, but the ones He did not choose, the law was how they were supposed to live?

Seems far fetched and completely not supported in logic whatsoever.

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LoveGodsWord said:

and as Paul says THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH -Hebrews 4:9.

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pescador said:

"So you believe He was choosing some of Israel, but not all of them?" Of course! Do you think that all Israel was chosen? Many died on their way to the promised land. Even Moses himself was prevented from entering.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5, "For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Not far fetched and completely supported by Scripture...

Romans 9:6-7, "It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”

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