Did Jesus Even Care....

cvanwey

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... If He left behind "sufficient" evidence for His resurrection, or not?

I'd wager that even a Christian could argue both "yes" or "no".

What's your take? (Yes or no), just for starters...?

(i.e.)

{No}.... His objective was to atone for human sin, and allow for humans to be saved. He did not care if anyone actually saw such a transaction or not. And hence, why He instead requires pure faith, as Hebrews 11:1 states...

{Yes}.... He did leave behind "sufficient" evidence, and the ones whom say He did not are (fill-in-da-blank)....

The atheist might want to point out how... Is it reasonable to ask that someone take such a claim, on pure faith and 'eyewitness' evidence, when the stakes are so high?.?.?

Not sure where this thread will go...?
 
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JohnClay

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I think the following is relevant - perhaps Jesus was talking to Christians who might be reading....

John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 
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FutureAndAHope

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According to the Bible, every person will be shown the truth, at one point in their life. They will be given sufficient evidence of God. But what is done with that evidence, determines the state, and end for that person.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Personally, I have "seen", plenty of evidence for God. In a world that has so many so-called truths, this is needed for me to maintain faith. However, it is still a choice, I can attribute these works to Jesus, or I could say, as an example, an alien did it. I must still want to walk the road that Jesus sets, if I desire to sin, I could at any moment discredit the works I have "seen". Some of the things I have seen are recorded at Everybody Matters Ministry | Online Church
 
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Mr. M

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... If He left behind "sufficient" evidence for His resurrection, or not?

I'd wager that even a Christian could argue both "yes" or "no".

What's your take? (Yes or no), just for starters...?
This always worked for me.
1 Corinthians 15:
3
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater
part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
 
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disciple Clint

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... If He left behind "sufficient" evidence for His resurrection, or not?

I'd wager that even a Christian could argue both "yes" or "no".

What's your take? (Yes or no), just for starters...?

(i.e.)

{No}.... His objective was to atone for human sin, and allow for humans to be saved. He did not care if anyone actually saw such a transaction or not. And hence, why He instead requires pure faith, as Hebrews 11:1 states...

{Yes}.... He did leave behind "sufficient" evidence, and the ones whom say He did not are (fill-in-da-blank)....

The atheist might want to point out how... Is it reasonable to ask that someone take such a claim, on pure faith and 'eyewitness' evidence, when the stakes are so high?.?.?

Not sure where this thread will go...?
He did leave behind "sufficient" evidence, and the ones whom say He did not are incorrect.
 
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Tolworth John

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He left behind "sufficient" evidence for His resurrection, or n

Only someone ignorant of historical research would ask a pointless question like this that is unaware of the facts atheist historians accept that show they accept that Jesus was a historical figure, that he was executed, buried, that the tomb was found to be empty, that the disciples lives changed radically ending up dying for arisen saviour.
It takes deliberent ignorance to conclude that Jesus did not rise from the dead.
 
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cvanwey

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According to the Bible, every person will be shown the truth, at one point in their life. They will be given sufficient evidence of God. But what is done with that evidence, determines the state, and end for that person.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Well, I do not think that I have. Does this mean I'm a liar?
 
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cvanwey

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Personally, I have "seen", plenty of evidence for God.

Would you mind giving me your best example of 'evidence for God'?


In a world that has so many so-called truths, this is needed for me to maintain faith.

Seems quite illogical to state you need to "maintain faith" while also stating "I have "seen", plenty of evidence for God." ?.?.?.?

However, it is still a choice, I can attribute these works to Jesus, or I could say, as an example, an alien did it.

Or maybe things just happen, for which some of us instead attribute to other forces?
 
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cvanwey

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This always worked for me.
1 Corinthians 15:
3
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater
part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7
After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

Who were these '500', and was this statement corroborated by these "witnesses"? Or, was this passage nothing more than hearsay?
 
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cvanwey

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Only someone ignorant of historical research would ask a pointless question like this that is unaware of the facts atheist historians accept that show they accept that Jesus was a historical figure, that he was executed, buried, that the tomb was found to be empty, that the disciples lives changed radically ending up dying for arisen saviour.
It takes deliberent ignorance to conclude that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

When investigating any piece of historical literature, I (at least) use the following basic guidelines:

- Is it possible the records can be fallible?
- Is the document from direct first hand accounts?
- Can the given report be corroborated by contemporaries?
- Can the event(s) be independently verified?
- Does the claim comport with the law of physics?
- Can the claim be substantiated by concrete relics?
- Are said sources consistent?
- Who wrote them and why?
- Does oral tradition play a preemptive hand?

I'll stop here...
 
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cvanwey

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Hello all,

Though I will certainly field additional topics, I want to also reiterate the main objective(s) of this thread (i.e.):

- Was one of Jesus's objectives to provide sufficient evidence for His resurrection?
- Also, does the atheist have a 'leg to stand upon', to state that they do not believe this specific event took place because the evidence is not sufficient? Is it reasonable for 'truth' to be based upon faith over evidence?

Some are addressing and some are kinda not. Which is still okay... :)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Well, I do not think that I have. Does this mean I'm a liar?

No, I am not calling you a liar. It is possible you are yet to have such an experience. In the bible, there is a story of Thomas, who doubted that Jesus rose from the dead, He said "unless I see the scars, and touch them I will not believe", Jesus later turned up, allowing Thomas to "see". Yet saying "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe".

Each of us is given the word of God, the bible, and conscience, God will not always do a direct miracle, but He will make His word known in our hearts. We should not be waiting to see if God will do a miracle, for the bible says "a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign". This was stated in the context of Jesus actually performing miracles, so he was making a comment, I have given them enough, they don't need more. We need to be careful that we don't continually seek more when God provides us with small signs or drawings.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Would you mind giving me your best example of 'evidence for God'?

The evidence I was talking about was personal signs and wonders that God has performed in my own life. That I linked to at Everybody Matters Ministry | Online Church

There is not one specific evidence that I see a proving God. But the book of Isiah has a long passage written 800 years before Jesus prophecying his coming. To me, this is biblical proof.

Isa 53:1-12 Has anyone believed us or seen the mighty power of the LORD in action? Like a young plant or a root that sprouts in dry ground, the servant grew up obeying the LORD. He wasn't some handsome king. Nothing about the way he looked made him attractive to us. He was hated and rejected; his life was filled with sorrow and terrible suffering. No one wanted to look at him. We despised him and said, "He is a nobody!" He suffered and endured great pain for us, but we thought his suffering was punishment from God. He was wounded and crushed because of our sins; by taking our punishment, he made us completely well. All of us were like sheep that had wandered off. We had each gone our own way, but the LORD gave him the punishment we deserved. He was painfully abused, but he did not complain. He was silent like a lamb being led to the butcher, as quiet as a sheep having its wool cut off. He was condemned to death without a fair trial. Who could have imagined what would happen to him? His life was taken away because of the sinful things my people had done. He wasn't dishonest or violent, but he was buried in a tomb of cruel and rich people. The LORD decided his servant would suffer as a sacrifice to take away the sin and guilt of others. Now the servant will live to see his own descendants. He did everything the LORD had planned. By suffering, the servant will learn the true meaning of obeying the LORD. Although he is innocent, he will take the punishment for the sins of others, so that many of them will no longer be guilty. The LORD will reward him with honor and power for sacrificing his life. Others thought he was a sinner, but he suffered for our sins and asked God to forgive us.
 
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cvanwey

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No, I am not calling you a liar. It is possible you are yet to have such an experience. In the bible, there is a story of Thomas, who doubted that Jesus rose from the dead, He said "unless I see the scars, and touch them I will not believe", Jesus later turned up, allowing Thomas to "see". Yet saying "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe".

Each of us is given the word of God, the bible, and conscience, God will not always do a direct miracle, but He will make His word known in our hearts. We should not be waiting to see if God will do a miracle, for the bible says "a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign". This was stated in the context of Jesus actually performing miracles, so he was making a comment, I have given them enough, they don't need more. We need to be careful that we don't continually seek more when God provides us with small signs or drawings.

I would like to redirect you back to the OP, as I feel this is fitting...

Do you think 'truth' discovery should be found by faith <over> evidence? If so, is truth found by faith <over> evidence in opposing claims?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Give me your strongest one. And how do you know it was from YHWH?

There is no particular "strongest one", but one of my favorites is:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end, I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife-wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man but had a good plan for him. Some weeks later this man came out to church and became a Christian.

How did I know it was God? Because it resulted in a man coming closer to God.
 
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cvanwey

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There is no particular "strongest one", but one of my favorites is:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end, I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife-wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man but had a good plan for him. Some weeks later this man came out to church and became a Christian.

How did I know it was God? Because it resulted in a man coming closer to God.

You heard an audible voice?
If so, do you continue to hear audible voices?
If so, do you commence with any two way dialogue?
Or, is it just one way conversation, at random, by this voice?
And if so, does this voice always give you coincidental information?
Can you ever summon this voice on command?
 
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