Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

GDL · Apr 18, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Kecharitomene is used ONCE in the Bible. So a comparison of words in the ESV is not actually relevant.

Please pick any translation you like. What is relevant is that we're looking at the same word - charitoō - in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6. In Luke the parsing of the participle is perfect passive, and in Ephesians the parsing of the verb is aorist active indicative. Same word, something different re: time being stated. Again, if we're going to make a case for something based upon the perfect tense, we're going to have to find somewhere in the Text to show us the past event the perfect is based upon.

Here's the Latin Vulgate:

Luke 1:28 et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

There is Greek wording that means "full of," but it is not in the Greek Text from anything I see. It's an insertion into the Latin. Most call this eisegesis.

A few verses later:

Luke 1:30 et ait angelus ei ne timeas Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

English translations are very similar and this is what the Greek says. Most English says "favor" instead of "grace." Either one is appropriate.

KJV Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

The parsing for "found" is aorist active indicative.

Here are several English translations for 1:28:

CJB Luke 1:28 Approaching her, the angel said, "Shalom, favored lady! ADONAI is with you!"

DBY Luke 1:28 And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee: blessed art *thou* amongst women.

ERV Luke 1:28 And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee.

ESV Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

KJV Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

NAS Luke 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

NET Luke 1:28 The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!"

NIV Luke 1:28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

NKJ Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"

YLT Luke 1:28 And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'

zoidar · Apr 18, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @Fidelibus, here are a couple of additional Scriptures to consider (the first I'm sure you'll recognize as being from the Virgin Mary herself/from her Magnificat).

Luke 1
46 Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God ~my Savior~”

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are ~all~ under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, ~NOT EVEN ONE~;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

Mary believed that God was "her Savior". If she was sinless from conception, what need would she have for a, "Savior"?

Finally, St. Paul uses more exacting language for us a bit earlier in Romans, Chapter 3, concerning the human race and the scope of our collective Fall. Jews ~and~ Greeks (or Gentiles) is one of the primary ways that the "whole world" was spoken of by 1st Century Jews (this includes the Jewish writers of the NT).

As for who is included in v9's "all" and v10's "NONE", please take special note (in v10) of the qualifying phrase, "NOT EVEN ONE". If there is any question concerning the scope of St. Paul's meaning of "NONE" (that "NONE" are righteous), his qualifying phrase at the end of v10 clears that up nicely for us

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - here's a bit more from St. Paul concerning the condition of every member of the human race. This, as you can see, includes the adopted children of God as well (the saints/the elect) prior to our coming to saving faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were ~by nature~ children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

I agree that everyone have sinned (Mary included), but do you think the psalmist quoted in Romans 3 also was talking about himself, or was he commenting on the people around him that were supposed to live righteous lives with God, but lived in sin?

A_Thinker · Apr 18, 2021

zoidar said:
I agree that everyone have sinned (Mary included), but do you think the psalmist quoted in Romans 3 also was talking about himself, or was he commenting on the people around him that were supposed to live righteous lives with God, but lived in sin?

The psalmist also knew his own heart ...

zoidar · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day

There is no verse saying Mary was sinless, so no, don't think so. All here, I think means all, except Christ.

zoidar · Apr 18, 2021

A_Thinker said:
The psalmist also knew his own heart ...

There are other Psalms for that. I see a writer who is deeply sadden by the sinfulness he sees among the people.

A_Thinker · Apr 18, 2021

zoidar said:
There are other Psalms for that. I see a writer who is deeply sadden by the sinfulness he sees among the people.

Do you think that the psalmist, looking over the course of his own life, could possibly conclude that he was without sin ???

If he was concerned ONLY with the sin of others, ... then why such absolutist language ... ???

“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, ~NOT EVEN ONE~;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

JacksBratt · Apr 18, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @chevyontheriver, how was the Lord Jesus able to save His mother from her sins at 'her' conception since His Incarnation, much less His death on the Cross, had (obviously) not happened yet?

Thanks!

--David

Did Christ not die for the sins of all humans? His work on the cross is the salvation for those born after His death and resurrection and before. Mary is no different.

I know my RC friends believe many things that I don't, when it comes to theology. I don't ridicule them and they don't shun me.

IMO, Mary found favor with God. However, she still was a sinner, needed salvation and Christ was her savior.

I have not seen any scripture or theological study of it, that would indicate anything any different.

Bobber · Apr 18, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
The Catholic Answer
Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was “saved.” Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was “saved” from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be “saved” completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression.

A mere assertion with no evidence to support that whatsoever. It becomes a theology of just wanting to believe something so you just declare it.

There's is evidence she had sinned once in doubting the Lord similar to what Thomas had. She doubted the Lord at one point.

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” Mark 3:20

Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” Mark 3:33,35

Scripture says that which is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23 Now this is not to say that Mary didn't come back into right thinking as time went along BUT at least at one point Jesus was declaring somethings and she didn't believe him. Sorry folks but that's called sin. And one can take this scripture and divert it's meaning but any way you want to look at it it says, Mary and Jesus brothers, THEY BOTH sent someone in to call him, basically to get him to stop doing what he was doing.

zoidar · Apr 18, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Do you think that the psalmist, looking over the course of his own life, could possibly conclude that he was without sin ???

If he was concerned ONLY with the sin of others, ... then why such absolutist language ... ???

“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, ~NOT EVEN ONE~;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

No, of course he knew he also had sinned, but I think he also knew he was righteous, he wasn't living in sin. Does this fit the psalmist: "None that seeks God"?

fhansen · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day

It’s just a figure of speech but, yes, while God certainly could preserve an individual from sin for His purposes, for the ultimate good or benefit of humanity, “all” men were made sinners by Adam’s sin.

lsume · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day

I Pray what follows helps resolve any tension you may feel as it applies to your faith;Christ is the way the truth and the life. Every stone in your temple must be placed by God The Father. Christ is The Cornerstone. Every stone not placed by God is coming down. Do you See. When in Mathew Christ Spoke of the buildings of the temple comings down and not one stone being left upon another, he was giving a Spiritual lesson. If you read most if not all commentaries, they say that in 70 AD the buildings and the temple were destroyed. That very well may have happened but The Bible is Spiritual and only Christ can open our eyes to The Truth.
Matt.24
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

setst777 · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day

The Scriptures define Lord Jesus, who is God in the flesh, as the only sinless man. All other humans that every existed sin in thought, word, and deed. That is true even though, even in OT time, God accredits righteousness, declares as righteous, to those who walk with God by faith.

Blessings

Fidelibus · Apr 18, 2021

zoidar said:
There is no verse saying Mary was sinless, so no, don't think so.

So, I have to ask Z, is there a verse saying she had?

All here, I think means all, except Christ.

You say that you "think?" Are you saying that 'all' in Romans 3:23 is not an absolute? But if you are saying that the 'all' in this passage is an absolute, I have to ask Z, do you consider yourself seeking God in your life?

Have a Blessed Day

Fidelibus · Apr 18, 2021

setst777 said:
The Scriptures define Lord Jesus, who is God in the flesh, as the only sinless man. All other humans that every existed sin in thought, word, and deed. That is true even though, even in OT time, God accredits righteousness, declares as righteous, to those who walk with God by faith.

Blessings

Including Adam and Eve before the fall? How about babies in the womb, How about babies just being born, or children under the age of reason, or how about people that were born severely mentally handicapped and will be bed-ridden their entire lives?

Fidelibus · Apr 18, 2021

lsume said:
I Pray what follows helps resolve any tension you may feel as it applies to your faith;Christ is the way the truth and the life. Every stone in your temple must be placed by God The Father. Christ is The Cornerstone. Every stone not placed by God is coming down. Do you See. When in Mathew Christ Spoke of the buildings of the temple comings down and not one stone being left upon another, he was giving a Spiritual lesson. If you read most if not all commentaries, they say that in 70 AD the buildings and the temple were destroyed. That very well may have happened but The Bible is Spiritual and only Christ can open our eyes to The Truth.
Matt.24
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Not sure where this has anything to do with my original post. Do you believe the 'all' in Romans 3:23 is an absolute, meaning absolutely all have sinned?

setst777 · Apr 18, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @chevyontheriver, how was the Lord Jesus able to save His mother from her sins at 'her' conception since His Incarnation, much less His death on the Cross, had (obviously) not happened yet?

Thanks!

--David

Clever and correct observation. Throughout Mary's life, before the Grace of the Gospel was ever available through the death and resurrection of Lord Jesus, Mary was still under sin's power, even though, like many OT believers, she feared God, and walked in faith, awaiting the salvation of God.

Therefore, Mary was not saved by Jesus before she could ever sin. Mary was quite a bit older when Lord Jesus died on the cross, and rose again.

Blessings.

setst777 · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
Including Adam and Eve before the fall? How about babies in the womb, How about babies just being born, or children under the age of reason, or how about people that were born severely mentally handicapped and will be bed-ridden their entire lives?

Adam and Eve sinned. So, they are included in the all.

As for Babies, although they are ignorant of sins they commit, and so innocent in that regard, they still sin from birth.

Psalm 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth.

GDL · Apr 18, 2021

fhansen said:
It’s just a figure of speech but, yes, while God certainly could preserve an individual from sin for His purposes, for the ultimate good or benefit of humanity, “all” men were made sinners by Adam’s sin.

How is it a figure of speech if all were made sinners by Adam's sin? What God could have done is not in question, is it?

zoidar · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
So, I have to ask Z, is there a verse saying she had?

You say that you "think?" Are you saying that 'all' in Romans 3:23 is not an absolute? But if you are saying that the 'all' in this passage is an absolute, I have to ask Z, do you consider yourself seeking God in your life?

Have a Blessed Day

I think there should be a verse that says she was sinless if she was, otherwise there might be other sinless people as well, like some apostles, since it's not mentioned that all of them sinned.

I say "all" in Romans 3:23 is an absolute. It's like in Romans 5:12, it also says all. The exception is Christ, and that is also stated in scripture, that Christ is an exception.

Don't know why you ask, but it could be said I seek God daily, but also that I have found God in Christ.

God bless you too!

GDL · Apr 18, 2021

Fidelibus said:
Including Adam and Eve before the fall?

At the disobedience, which is the point - all have sinned.

Fidelibus said:
How about babies in the womb

A discussion about the beginning of life, not accountability for sin, but in Adam all are under sin and death.

Fidelibus said:
How about babies just being born

Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is does God make provision for them if an early death.

Fidelibus said:
or children under the age of reason

Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is does God make provision for them if an early death.

Fidelibus said:
or how about people that were born severely mentally handicapped and will be bed-ridden their entire lives?

Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is if God makes provision for them and are we capable of saying they are incapable of sin.

Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

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