Why do Some Christians Get a Kick Out of Hating Gays?

Jaedan said:

I'm not giving out any names, but many people around me whom I love dearly are often "hostile" towards gays. Their name-calling, threats, and etc, always makes me feel really distressed and uncomfortable (even though I'm not gay). I just don't like it and it is one of the reasons why I stopped believing.

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Because Christians, like anyone else, are sinful hypocrites. And unfortunately history is replete with examples of people justifying their bad behavior under the banner of religion. It is much easier to not have to face the consequences of guilt if you can rationalize your sin away--and Christians are guilty of doing this. I am guilty of doing this.

It's why it is important for Christians to hear God's word preached, and preached rightly--that the Law can do its job in mortifying our sinful selves, that we become humble and contrite, grieving over our sin, and in repentance earnestly seek forgiveness. Not only to confess our sins to God, as is part of standard historic Christian practice (Confession and Absolution); but to right our wrongs. If we have sown injury, to seek forgiveness from the injured, and to devote ourselves to not doing this again. The preaching of the Law is necessary, it stops us from becoming complacent and comfortable. The preaching of the Gospel, of God's loving mercy poured out upon us in Christ, forgiving us of all our sins, and reconciling us to Himself--that's for sinners, for us. If we aren't acknowledging our sinfulness, then we aren't believing in our forgiveness either. In this way without the preaching of the Law as Law, and the Gospel as Gospel; both are rejected.

The result is not only theological confusion, but also it can lead to religious arrogance by our "opinion of the Law"--a term we Lutherans use to speak of the innately stubborn human impulse to believe that we can, through sheer effort and will, achieve godly righteousness in this life. And by the same token, rather than arrogance, can lead to utter despair.

To the one who believes they are holy and righteous, comes arrogance; to the one who believes they sinful beyond hope, despair.

Neither of these things is to be accepted: The Law must crucify our pride, and the Gospel soothe and comfort our hurting conscience. That we are not guiltless, but that our guilt can be alleviated by mercy; thus providing us a place from which we can freely, and humbly, and contritely, love our neighbor as Christ has called and commanded His followers to do.

Is this what Christians are supposed to do.

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Not even remotely. Such behavior is Antichrist, and is mortal sin against both God and our neighbor who bears God's image.

St. James in his epistle writes that the tongue is a vicious beast, full of hypocrisy, "with the tongue we bless our God and Father, and with the tongue we curse our fellow man created in the image of God. Out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing. My brothers, this is wrong" (James 3:9-10)

"Likewise, is it wrong for Christians to hold other Christians accountable for these remarks/threats, etc?[/QUOTE]

No. Ideally teaching, correction, and guidance on matters of Christian faith and living should be exercised through the pastoral ministry. The Church calls and ordains pastors to exercise the "Office of the Keys", to bind and loose, to minister us with God's word, with the Sacraments, and to teach us, guide us, encourage us, and correct us in matters of right conduct and life. As such, lay Christians should be hearing the proper preaching of the Law and of the Gospel (as mentioned above); and from this faithful preaching and ministry of the Church, we should have our conscience poked, producing honest and truthful contrition, confession, and repentance; transformed into humble joy in the hope and faith we have from God in Jesus for us as sinners.

The Christian, living not as a spoiled braggart, but as a humble servant, carrying their cross of discipleship, following Jesus, our Lord, King, God, Teacher, and Example. We are to be as Him who we read in the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Philippians, did not exploit His glory as being God, but humbled Himself, poured Himself out, emptied Himself to become a human servant, humbling Himself, lowering Himself, even to the point of death on the cross (Philippians 2:1-8).

What you are seeing is the fact that Christians are not immune to the depravity of sin; it is a thorough reality for us that we might always struggle against. Nevertheless we are frequently those who hide from the light, seeking out the darkness because our works are evil, as Jesus Himself said, "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." (John 3:19-20)

-CryptoLutheran

Many people think that just because someone says they are Christian that they must be different, seen as good folks. Not so. But worse yet some people believe that those who are Christian religious institutions, are above reproach. That is the biggest foolishness of all. Even Jesus went after some of these whitewashed tombs.

Jaedan said:

I'm not giving out any names, but many people around me whom I love dearly are often "hostile" towards gays. Their name-calling, threats, and etc, always makes me feel really distressed and uncomfortable (even though I'm not gay). I just don't like it and it is one of the reasons why I stopped believing.

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You stopped believing because you saw some humans being hostile to other humans? WOW. Are you serious?
I thought that would make you even more committed to helping spread Jesus' message;
...love one another
...judge not lest ye be judged
...take the log out of your own eye
...let he who is without sin cast the first stone
...do unto others as you would have them do unto you
...Luke 15:7

Is this what Christians are supposed to do.

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Gee. Um... let's do a little research.
Let's see if we can find a public forum where LOTS of professing Christians gather and share their views about the world. A really big Christian Forum. There's gotta be one somewhere.
And let's see if, instead of the nameless, anecdotal people referred to in your Op, let's see if we can find some of this name-calling, threats, hostility...casting of stones at gays.
If such behaviour is what 'True Christians' are supposed to do, we should expect to see this being openly practiced. And the Terms of Use Rules of such a forum should, theoretically advocate and encourage such hostility to gays- right?
....I mean...if it WAS what Christians are supposed to do.

Likewise, is it wrong for Christians to hold other Christians accountable for these remarks/threats, etc?

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Most Christians defer to scripture in seeking how settle such matters.
2 Timothy 2:24, 1 John 3:18, Galatians 6:1, etc. (Gentleness, patience, encouragement, love, compassion...)

So you are probably best to follow this scriptural method. Of course, if you're an atheist, unbeliever, whatever, it might be difficult to preach to others about what they ought to do.

*Full Disclosure.
I'm embarrassed to admit that I frequently succumb to my 'inner Boanerges' and occasionally use intemperate language - especially when I'm visiting atheist forums (fora). Speaking in tongues perhaps? When in Rome? I dunno. But when atheists call me out and say..."how unChristian of you" I am compelled to reply..."I thought that's what you guys wanted."

I think smoking is bad.
I dont think smokers are bad.

Can you see the difference?

Jaedan said:

I'm not giving out any names, but many people around me whom I love dearly are often "hostile" towards gays. Their name-calling, threats, and etc, always makes me feel really distressed and uncomfortable (even though I'm not gay). I just don't like it and it is one of the reasons why I stopped believing.

Is this what Christians are supposed to do. Likewise, is it wrong for Christians to hold other Christians accountable for these remarks/threats, etc?

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Haters gotta hate ...

Makes one wonder how Jesus ever managed to spend time with sinners and publicans.

Matthew 5

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Hatred is the human default. Some don't yield to any motivation to give it up ...

It goes to the heart of your Op because I suspect you are conflating the two. Christians disapproving of [insert immoral/sinful act here] is not getting a kick out of hating the individual.

I suspect you have synchronised yourself with the woke LGBTQI playbook which demands tolerance uber alles. And which presumes hatred is the only motive held by people who don't fully accept LGBTQ lobby group think.

Lion IRC said:

It goes to the heart of your Op because I suspect you are conflating the two. Christians disapproving of [insert immoral/sinful act here] is not getting a kick out of hating the individual.

I suspect you have synchronised yourself with the woke LGBTQI playbook which demands tolerance uber alles. And which presumes hatred is the only motive held by people who don't fully accept LGBTQ lobby group think.

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In my experience very often "hate the sin, love the sinner" is little more than a self-justification for disobeying Christ's Command that we love our neighbor, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Obviously that isn't always true, we can find deplorable behavior deplorable without despising the person. But that doesn't seem to be what the OP is talking about. The OP seems to be talking about the former, not the latter--using "hate the sin" to just be code for "hate the sinner".

It's not loving to call someone the F-word. It's not loving to reject and deny the innate humanity of LGBTQIA+ persons. And frequently that is precisely what is going on.

If we are being honest with ourselves, then rather than going cut-throat toward "them", we would instead hear God's word--the Law of His commandments--and that crushing weight of the Law, that we should love God and love our neighbor, but we do not do it, should produce in us sorrow and grief over our sin, and lead us to repentance. And in that place of repentance, the sweet word of the Gospel is there, to lift us up in Jesus from death to life.

But we frequently reject the Law as it pertains to us, wishing only to use a cudgel against others; and then reject the Gospel as it pertains to others, of God's unconditional, gracious, superabundant love and mercy, having forgiven us all our sins on Christ's account.

The Opinion of the Law--the notion that we can be righteous by our own efforts, abilities, strength, power or will by obeying God's commandments--is one of the deepest most nefarious of all heresies. It is the natural heresy of man. And it is not the irreligious who are most guilty of it, but the religious--you and me. We who call ourselves God's people.

But we are God's people not on account of any righteousness that we have; we are God's people solely by the mercy of God, the righteousness of God, that is in Christ. In this we are justified, freely, by grace, through faith. A righteousness that comes from outside of ourselves, it is Jesus' righteousness. Christ is just, we are unjust, and therefore the justice of God is revealed through the Gospel (Romans 1:17); the justice of God by which He freely and graciously justifies sinners. God's Justice, in Jesus, is the justice by which sinners are made just on Christ's account.

For this reason what excuse could we ever come up with by which to lord over others any righteousness of ourselves? Or to put it the way St. Paul does, "Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded." (Romans 3:27).

We ought to remember this truth: We are but naked beggars.
And Christ gives Himself freely to naked beggars, to sinners, to the unrighteous, the unruly, and the unwise--you and me (1 Timothy 1:15).

-CryptoLutheran

Just wondering how you see these matters inside the church where there seems to be a legitimate place for judgement in the light of John 20...

“Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Carl Emerson said:

Just wondering how you see these matters inside the church where there seems to be a legitimate place for judgement in the light of John 20...

“Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

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I am uncertain if you are addressing this to the OP or to me. If to me, then my response is as follows:

This passage from the Gospel of John has always been understood as one of two essential passages concerning the Keys of the kingdom (the other, where the language of the Keys is found, is in Matthew ch. 16 where the Lord says to Peter that he shall receive the Keys).

For Lutherans we understand that the giving of the Keys is not to Peter exclusively, but to the Apostles specifically; and thus to the Church universally. Thus the Keys are to be understood as the common possession of the whole Church. However, the question of the exercising of the Keys is important--how does the Church exercise the Keys? And since the beginning of Christianity the way this has been done is through the calling and ordaining of ministers--pastors. The Apostles themselves called and ordained people to serve as bishops, presbyters, and deacons in the churches, thus establishing the precedent of the pastorate. Thus the faithful exercising of the Keys is through the sacred ministry which the Church confers upon pastors; who are then tasked with the preaching of the Word and administering of the Sacraments.

In the context of John 20:23, this exercising of the Keys is in Absolution. We come before God as His people, in repentance, confessing our sins, and what is given to us in our penitent confession is Absolution--the absolving of our sins--received freely by grace on account of Christ's saving work. It is therefore the vocational duty of the pastor to confer Absolution, or to withhold it. The pastor can withhold Absolution when it is clear that the penitent isn't penitent.

An example: If I steal something, and then I go and confess my sins, but I have no intent on returning what I stole, I am clearly not all that sorry, sorrowful--I'm not really repenting of my sins. True repentance, then, with real contrition and grief over sin would lead me to return what was stolen and make amends with those I have caused harm to. While God's forgiveness does not require me to do X, Y, and Z; if I am not truly repentant then I don't really want forgiveness; and thus through my own stubbornness I am refusing the forgiveness of God in my heart. It is therefore a pastor's vocational responsibility to pronounce forgiveness of sins in Christ's name to the contrite and repentant; but also to withhold the pronouncing of forgiveness for the one whose heart is hardened and has no grief for their sin.

Absolution is not a weapon to be used, but it is essential that one who has been commissioned to pastor, to be a shepherd to Christ's sheep, is to rightly exercise that pastoral responsibility--to both preach the Law to bring us to repentance, and to preach the Gospel that we might be healed by God's mercy. And by this faithful preaching of the Word and administering of the Sacraments, we are hearing what we should hear, receiving what God wants us to receive, that we might be holy. Holy, not on account of our works or righteousness, but holy in Jesus Christ who makes us holy.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I am uncertain if you are addressing this to the OP or to me. If to me, then my response is as follows:

This passage from the Gospel of John has always been understood as one of two essential passages concerning the Keys of the kingdom (the other, where the language of the Keys is found, is in Matthew ch. 16 where the Lord says to Peter that he shall receive the Keys).

For Lutherans we understand that the giving of the Keys is not to Peter exclusively, but to the Apostles specifically; and thus to the Church universally. Thus the Keys are to be understood as the common possession of the whole Church. However, the question of the exercising of the Keys is important--how does the Church exercise the Keys? And since the beginning of Christianity the way this has been done is through the calling and ordaining of ministers--pastors. The Apostles themselves called and ordained people to serve as bishops, presbyters, and deacons in the churches, thus establishing the precedent of the pastorate. Thus the faithful exercising of the Keys is through the sacred ministry which the Church confers upon pastors; who are then tasked with the preaching of the Word and administering of the Sacraments.

In the context of John 20:23, this exercising of the Keys is in Absolution. We come before God as His people, in repentance, confessing our sins, and what is given to us in our penitent confession is Absolution--the absolving of our sins--received freely by grace on account of Christ's saving work. It is therefore the vocational duty of the pastor to confer Absolution, or to withhold it. The pastor can withhold Absolution when it is clear that the penitent isn't penitent.

An example: If I steal something, and then I go and confess my sins, but I have no intent on returning what I stole, I am clearly not all that sorry, sorrowful--I'm not really repenting of my sins. True repentance, then, with real contrition and grief over sin would lead me to return what was stolen and make amends with those I have caused harm to. While God's forgiveness does not require me to do X, Y, and Z; if I am not truly repentant then I don't really want forgiveness; and thus through my own stubbornness I am refusing the forgiveness of God in my heart. It is therefore a pastor's vocational responsibility to pronounce forgiveness of sins in Christ's name to the contrite and repentant; but also to withhold the pronouncing of forgiveness for the one whose heart is hardened and has no grief for their sin.

Absolution is not a weapon to be used, but it is essential that one who has been commissioned to pastor, to be a shepherd to Christ's sheep, is to rightly exercise that pastoral responsibility--to both preach the Law to bring us to repentance, and to preach the Gospel that we might be healed by God's mercy. And by this faithful preaching of the Word and administering of the Sacraments, we are hearing what we should hear, receiving what God wants us to receive, that we might be holy. Holy, not on account of our works or righteousness, but holy in Jesus Christ who makes us holy.

-CryptoLutheran

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Very good...

So how do you account for the judgement on Ananias and Sapphira ??

Carl Emerson said:

Very good...

So how do you account for the judgement on Ananias and Sapphira ??

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I'm not sure I understand the question as it relates to the conversation thus far.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I'm not sure I understand the question as it relates to the conversation thus far.

-CryptoLutheran

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Judgement within the Church...

Carl Emerson said:

Judgement within the Church...

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It would seem to me that Ananias and Sapphira weren't judged within the Church, not outside St. Peter's condemnation of what they did.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

It would seem to me that Ananias and Sapphira weren't judged within the Church, not outside St. Peter's condemnation of what they did.

-CryptoLutheran

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Sorry CL is there a Typo in your sentence?

Carl Emerson said:

Sorry CL is there a Typo in your sentence?

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I don't believe so. I simply wanted to indicate that I don't attribute the death of Ananias and Sapphira to church discipline; as think that line of thinking can take us to dark places we shouldn't go. That is to say, the episode is descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes something that happened, but does not provide something to use to base doctrine or practice from. The alternative to that would seem to be a notion that God could "get us" at any time; which isn't in alignment with God's revealed character.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

The alternative to that would seem to be a notion that God could "get us" at any time; which isn't in alignment with God's revealed character.

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That is not the alternative. They lied against the Holy Spirit and were thus challenging the authority of the church.

ViaCrucis said:

in my experience very often "hate the sin, love the sinner" is little more than a self-justification for disobeying Christ's Command that we love our neighbor, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

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This sounds perilously close to a pronouncement of judgement upon those who (you claim) are "disobeying Christ".

Did you see my post #63?
Why do Some Christians Get a Kick Out of Hating Gays?

Lion IRC said:

This sounds perilously close to a pronouncement of judgement upon those who (you claim) are "disobeying Christ".

Did you see my post #63?
Why do Some Christians Get a Kick Out of Hating Gays?

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The Law condemns us all as sinners. So yes, the Law judges us all as disobedient.

-CryptoLutheran