Saturday Sabbath vs Sunday The Lords Day....GO!

Freth

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words is not the same as obedience...we can say we love God but our actions goes against our words...

Eg if you say you keep the 7th day Sabbath because you love God but then you show jealousy, or hatred towards others, or favours others more than others, or lying etc then your claims of loving God is just mere words, you also doesn't keep the 7th day Sabbath...

Anyone who claim to keep the whole law but stumble at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it..

The message of loving others is from the "beginning" this is the Gospel message..1John 4:11

You said: words is not the same as obedience

I had already made this point in my original post, with scripture. Here's an excerpt.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​

You said: we can say we love God but our actions goes against our words...
Eg if you say you keep the 7th day Sabbath because you love God but then you show jealousy, or hatred towards others, or favours others more than others, or lying etc then your claims of loving God is just mere words, you also doesn't keep the 7th day Sabbath... Anyone who claim to keep the whole law but stumble at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it..


I had already made this point in my original post, with scripture. Here's an excerpt.

Romans 15:39 ...remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them
Romans 15:40 ...That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.​

I had already made this point in my original post, with my own words. Here's an excerpt.
  • "Love for our creator, love for our God. The desire to do His will and not our own. This is the life we're called to, but of our own free will, of a true heart conversion. God knows the difference and Jesus knows the difference."
 
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Der Alte

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I'm not talking about Rome. I'm talking about the Christian Church, the one Jesus Christ founded. And that Church very much is Catholic--it is Christ's one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
Let me ask you this: Do you believe in the words of the Nicene Creed?
-CryptoLutheran
I agree with you based on the correct meaning of "catholic." καθ ολης/kath oles "according to the whole." It occurs in the following verses Luke 4:14, Luke 8:39, Luke 23:5, Acts of the Apostles 9:31, Acts of the Apostles 9:42, Acts of the Apostles 10:37
Not the organization headquartered in Rome.

 
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pasifika

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You said: words is not the same as obedience

I had already made this point in my original post, with scripture. Here's an excerpt.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​

You said: we can say we love God but our actions goes against our words...
Eg if you say you keep the 7th day Sabbath because you love God but then you show jealousy, or hatred towards others, or favours others more than others, or lying etc then your claims of loving God is just mere words, you also doesn't keep the 7th day Sabbath... Anyone who claim to keep the whole law but stumble at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it..


I had already made this point in my original post, with scripture. Here's an excerpt.

Romans 15:39 ...remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them
Romans 15:40 ...That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.​

I had already made this point in my original post, with my own words. Here's an excerpt.
  • "Love for our creator, love for our God. The desire to do His will and not our own. This is the life we're called to, but of our own free will, of a true heart conversion. God knows the difference and Jesus knows the difference."
Thanks Freth, I just had a little read through your post...
What i see is that;

Those who follow the old covenant law and regulations (Sinai) don't really understand how is the law was given I mean the condition in which was given.."the condition is that man will do what the Lord said" Exodus 19:7,8 there is no influence by God on how the people follow his law it's all up to the people, this is the "works of the law"...

And the problem of that covenant in which the law was given is that..."the law is spiritual, holy, righteous, but man whom they are to follow the law are not spiritual, not holy etc"..Romans 7:12-14..

So sinful man followed a holy law and that is the problem...instead of life, death is the result for man..

Then comes Jesus, fulfilled the righteous requirements of the the law, made His Spirit available for sinners so instead of sinful man obey the law is God himself through the Spirit doing it..Philippians 1:6

So not the letter we follow but the Spirit..since the letter only condemn us but the Spirit justified us..

So in regards to the Sabbath (rest), man was given a work to do and that work for man is "to believe in the Son" John 6:29...just as God doing His work in creation and rest on the 7th day, so also man must believe in the Son (through the Gospel ) to enter God’s rest and that day is called "today" just as God rest from His work and rested on the 7th day..(Hebrews 4)

So;
7th day = Day God's rest
Today = Day man rest..
 
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BobRyan

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The original Christian Church changed the day of communal worship from Saturday to Sunday because they rightly believed it was more fitting to gather for worship on the day of Jesus Christ's glorious Resurrection, than on the day He lay dead in the tomb. Many of the customs and beliefs of Judaism were not carried over into Christianity.

So the NT writers simply forgot to mention it but did not forget that "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 they had Gospel preaching for both Jews and gentiles?
 
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BobRyan

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Those who follow the old covenant law and regulations (Sinai) don't really understand how is the law was given I mean the condition in which was given.."the condition is that man will do what the Lord said" Exodus 19:7,8 there is no influence by God on how the people follow his law it's all up to the people, this is the "works of the law"...

Is it your POV that Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ before the cross even happens (Matt 17) by their own diligent gospel-of-works rather than the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8??
 
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Studyman

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“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).​

The Saturday Sabbath is clearly a part of the Old Testament Law of Moses, and it is not a command that is clearly given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ and or by His apostles.

I would ask you a couple of questions regarding your religious philosophy in the hopes that you would show a common courtesy and answer them please.

#1. What "LAW" did Moses create for God's People to walk in?

#2. According to the God of the Bible, how were sins forgiven Before the SEED came?

I look forward to your spirit filled answer.
 
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pasifika

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Is it your POV that Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ before the cross even happens (Matt 17) by their own diligent gospel-of-works rather than the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8??
Faith is Not same as works (works of the law)

Abraham, Moses, Elijah etc were of the Faith..

Faith=God does the work in us
work as (law of works)= Man does the work as how the covenant is stated...

For your information, the gospel has been given since the beginning from the time of the fall of mankind..Genesis 3:15
The law was added later through a covenant Galatians 3:17
 
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Semper-Fi

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No saint in the first century had a Bible.

Why is that ? Could it be that the Church banned the bible.

Was Bible possesion banned by the Catholic Church
-

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What scripture did they have then,
"to make thee wise unto salvation".
-

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they
received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched
the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 
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BobRyan

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Faith is Not same as works (works of the law)

Abraham, Moses, Elijah etc were of the Faith..

Ok so then OT and NT we can have people saved under the gospel and those who are lost apart from faith.

But that is not really "a change" it is just the way that gospel has always worked.

For your information, the gospel has been given since the beginning from the time of the fall of mankind..Genesis 3:15

But even in Genesis 3 - it was still "a sin" to take God's name in vain

The law was added later through a covenant Galatians 3:17

Agreed - it is added in written form and so "on stone" we see "do not take God's name in vain" but it was already a sin to do it even in Genesis.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Why is that ? Could it be that the Church banned the bible.

Was Bible possesion banned by the Catholic Church
-

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What scripture did they have then,
"to make thee wise unto salvation".
-

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched
the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Oh, you got it. The Catholic Church banned the Bible at the time the Apostles were alive. Yep.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Semper-Fi

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Oh, you got it. The Catholic Church banned the Bible at the time the Apostles were alive. Yep.

-CryptoLutheran
What historians say, and what they call the lost century in history.

as Edward Gibbon wrote in
The History of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire

"The scanty materials of ecclesiastical history seldom enable us
to dispel the cloud that hangs over the first age of the church .

-
Jesse Lyman Hurlbert in
The story of the christian church

the age just after the book of acts he calls "..the age of shadows.."
"of all the periods in the churches history, it is the one about which we know
the least about. For fifty years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church,
through which we strive vainly to look;

-
William McLaughlin in
The Course of Christian History

"But Christianity itself had been in the process of transformation as it progressed
and at the close of the period was in many respects quite different from the apostolic
Christianity."

-
Samuel G. Green in
A handbook of church History

"The thirty years which followed the close of the New Testement canon and the
destruction of Jerusalem, are in truth the most obscure in the history of the church.
When we emerge in the second century, we are to a great extent in a changed world."

-
William fitzgerald in
lectures on ecclesiastical History

"over this period of transition, which immediatly succeeds upon
the era properly called apostolic, great obscurity hangs."

-
Philip Schaff in
History of the Christian Church

"The remaining thirty years of the first century are involved in mysterious darkness,
illuminated only by the writings of John. This is a period of church history about which
we know least and would like to know most."

"Simon Magus unquestionably adulterated Christianity with pagon ideas and practices
and gave himself out for an emanation of God."

"This heresy in the second century spread over the whole church, east and west,
in the various schools of agnosticism."
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I would ask you a couple of questions regarding your religious philosophy in the hopes that you would show a common courtesy and answer them please.

#1. What "LAW" did Moses create for God's People to walk in?

Except for maybe the Law on divorce, Moses did not create all of the Law. So the question you ask is based on a false assumption that I do not believe is true, brother. God had written the 10 commandments on tablets of stone by His hand, and the Torah was written under the inpiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16). So God created the majority of the Law of Moses, but the Old Law (the 613) as a whole or package deal (not individual commands) has been done away with when Christ died upon the cross. We are under the New Covenant (which began with Christ's death) and this means we are under a new set of commands (found in the pages of the New Testament). While the Old Law is good if we use it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8), we follow Jesus and His apostles and not Moses (When it comes to obeying God). For we are New Covenant believers, and not Old Covenant believers.

For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

You said:
#2. According to the God of the Bible, how were sins forgiven Before the SEED came?

I look forward to your spirit filled answer.

Before Jesus came, sins were forgiven by offering animal for sacrifice to the priest. These same past sins needed to be revisited year after year. For the blood of goats and bulls could never permanently take away sin. But when Jesus (the seed) came, He was able to forgive sins directly and they would forever be forgiven. When Jesus died upon the cross, and was buried, and was risen three days later, He ascended to the Father and became our Heavenly high priest. Jesus became the mediator between God the Father, and man. So believers today can boldly become the throne of grace and confess of their sins to Jesus by way of prayer. Jesus is the sacrifice and the high priest. He is our advocate and our Savior. He is our king. He is our friend. He is our everything.
 
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JMV

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I'm not talking about Rome. I'm talking about the Christian Church, the one Jesus Christ founded. And that Church very much is Catholic--it is Christ's one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe in the words of the Nicene Creed?

-CryptoLutheran

Embrace YAHUSHUA as He really is, and not as you would have Him be, lest you be found a liar that terrible day when the Fire comes to test the quality of each man's work, whether good or bad... Thus says the Lord whose name is YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH, of your church called the mother:

"5/14/05 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


Thus says The Lord: Beware, O peoples of the church called mother. For she is a harlot, a false way, a deceitful house filled with both great and subtle deceptions. Be wary, rouse yourselves from this heavy sleep, and look upon the fruit of your doings. For you have been greatly misled, caught up in a faith which is dead; there is no life in it! For as it was written by My servant, so in like manner I now plead with you: Depart from the way of evil, from the man who speaks perverse things, from those who leave the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perversity of the pagan, whose ways are crooked and who are devious in their paths. Be delivered from the adulterous woman, from the seductress who flatters with her words, who forsakes the husband of her youth and forgets the covenant of her God. For her house is sinking down to death, and all her paths lead to the dead.[1]

Therefore thus says The Lord God, The Holy One of Israel, to all who have ears to hear: This unholy church of men is a harlot! From the beginning she has been a harlot! Yet she would have all believe she is a queen, even the true church and mother. Indeed, she has bore many sons and daughters, daughters who yet bear her likeness; and many sons who shall go to perdition, false fathers and priests, who by their own authority take to themselves proselytes, who they then make twice as fit for destruction as themselves![2] Behold, deception is hidden within deception, as she continues to build up her sins toward Heaven.


For I tell you a mystery filled with corruption,
Abuse of power and contemptible ways:


This church of men is like the woman who rides the beast;
She is clothed with purple and scarlet, enticing the
People to commit fornication with her...


Yet to her own, she is a queen who sits upon
My throne and has taken to herself My authority,
Perverting My Word and changing My Commandments
As she appoints kings and princes in her own name,
Each with names of blasphemy upon their heads,
So-called holy fathers who shall go into perdition with her...


And yet to those against her, she is the beast.


Yet I tell you the truth, all are deceived. For her power and authority come from the beast, which atop she sits. For she has many names of blasphemy, and all her works are an abomination before The Lord. She is indeed a harlot, and her adulteries are many. Behold, she is also like the great harlot who sits upon many waters, who has corrupted the earth with her fornications. And like the false prophet she spews perverse and bitter doctrine, leading many into false worship, even to the committing of fornication with the pagan and the heathen by all her filthy traditions! And like the beast, she has shed the blood of My servants throughout her generations, and has not ceased from opening her mouth to speak great things and blasphemies with a practiced and lying tongue, by which she has deceived many. Therefore, I must take My people out of her! Behold, I shall snatch them from her very breast! For she is also like Babylon, adorning herself with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornications.[3]

Thus says The Lord to the deceptive harlot, to the mother of all fornications: Woe, I say to you! Even three times, woe! For the atheist shall have it far better than you, when the wrath of the great and dreadful God has come! For when they seek forgiveness, they shall surely find it. Yet woe to you who blaspheme The Spirit; from you forgiveness has fled away![4] Behold, destruction waits for you as you continue to tread the wide path![5]
For you believe yourself to be a glorious vine, yet your roots are full of rottenness, a vine of deceit with many tendrils spreading forth abomination! Behold, you see yourself as a sovereign nation, as the mother church, universal, and yet you willingly go into captivity and hold fast in your rebellion! Therefore, I shall make you a desolation and an astonishment, an object of horror and hissing; I shall strip you bare!
And behold, you shall become an island, a most desolate place amidst the nations. No more shall anyone draw near to you, nor shall any attempt to pass through. For all shall keep their distance for fear of your punishment. Every traveler shall go roundabout, horrified at the smoke of your burning.

For thus says The Lord: I have set you apart for judgment! I have separated you out for death, for sorrow and for famine, until the fire of My wrath consumes you! For you have caused My beloved to depart from Me; you have turned them aside from The Way! You have caused them to trust in fables and to put their hope in lies and false visions, in worthless things![6] The Truth is not in you, and from The Life you are far removed![7]
You have pierced My heart with a hot iron! You have battered and bruised Me, and torn My flesh! My sadness fills the heavens like the unending blackness, My tears cover the earth like the oceans, because of you! My anger wells up within Me like a raging fire, on account of all these you have persecuted and murdered throughout your generations!
Indeed, the cup of My indignation overflows, on account of all you have done and are about to do, says The Lord. And still I sent to you many in My own name, that you might be saved from yourself. Yet you rejected them all, beating some and killing others, casting them out in your pompous rage. You will not turn, and so The Father has declared your end.


WOE TO THE CHURCH CALLED MOTHER!
WOE TO YOU AND YOUR APPOINTED LEADERS!
WOE TO YOU AND ALL YOUR “HOLY FATHERS”![8]...


WOE TO THE CHURCH CALLED ROMAN AND CATHOLIC!
WOE TO THE CHURCH FULL OF DEAD MEN’S BONES![9]...


For I have prepared a great fire, and behold, it is already kindled,
And you, along with all who cleave to you, shall surely be cast into it!"

And...

"And you, O church called Roman and Catholic, how We mourn for you! For you have been judged, and shall be left utterly desolate in the Day of The Lord’s Anger! You say you speak for Me and have The Messiah’s authority, yet I tell you, you have trampled upon the grave of The Resurrected One, making His sacrifice of no effect! WOE TO ALL WHO BLASPHEME THE SPIRIT! Throughout your generations you have not ceased from transgressing The Law by your traditions! Even to this day you embrace every foul and contemptible doctrine, reveling in those things I hate! Behold, you pollute the name of The Messiah by all you say and do, as you lead the people astray!
O unholy church of adulteries, mother of all fornications and lies, your destruction draws near! You have become Egypt! LET MY PEOPLE GO! Stop desecrating My Sabbaths! The seventh day is the Sabbath, which I had ordained from the beginning! Cease from your heresies, hold your tongue from your blasphemies, turn back from this wicked way you have chosen, AND REPENT, and I may yet have mercy upon you! For I am The Lord, and I DO NOT CHANGE!
Therefore heed My words and bow down, O unholy church of men! Hear the Word of The Lord, and be broken in pieces! For The Holy One is coming quickly and will take from you His own; He shall snatch them from your very breast! And no more shall My children receive nourishment from you! No more shall they be held captive under the veil of your deceptions! The light shall be taken from you, and you shall be left all alone, utterly estranged, on account of your unending adulteries and for the multitude of your whoredoms, which you performed in MY NAME!

Thus your fate lies with him who is coming, the wicked one who shall lead many into perdition and death. You shall bear him a son, a man who bears the number of his name, his prophet. Yet you will not be alone when desolations come; you and your enemy, Ishmael, shall receive recompense in full. For you both remain children of your father, the devil.


Behold, The Mighty and Strong One
Shall return and take from the earth
His own, and great recompense
Shall be poured out on all nations...


He shall come in power and great glory,
And Judgment shall sit...


Yet all who come out from among them,
And call upon the name of The Holy One of Israel,
In spirit and in truth, shall be delivered...



Says The Lord."

Turn away from her and don't look back! Worship God in spirit and truth, here is wisdom regarding the Son if you're willing to receive it..

"Thus for My wise and faithful servants,
All barriers are removed...

For their peace is in the knowing,
I AM WHO I AM, though they yet
Stand at the beginning, unable to see the end...


An heir of all I will reveal to them
When the fullness of time has come in...


Says The Lord."
 

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Saint Steven

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Breaking bread means eating a meal , and giving thanks.
This was done most every day, not only on the first day.
Yes, they were meeting daily, but the "breaking of bread" had special significance.

Acts 2:42 NIV
The Fellowship of the Believers
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Acts 20:7 NIV
Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 10:16 NIV
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Saint Steven said:
Luke writes that the church in Troas was meeting on the first day of the week for the purpose of breaking bread.
 
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Saint Steven

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The original Christian Church changed the day of communal worship from Saturday to Sunday because they rightly believed it was more fitting to gather for worship on the day of Jesus Christ's glorious Resurrection, than on the day He lay dead in the tomb. Many of the customs and beliefs of Judaism were not carried over into Christianity.
You are agreeing with the Sabbatarians when you say things like this. When do you claim this happened?
 
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BobRyan

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Oh, you got it. The Catholic Church banned the Bible at the time the Apostles were alive. Yep.

-CryptoLutheran

It looks like you just "quoted you" and blamed someone "else" for what you said???... or did we miss something?
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, they were meeting daily, but the "breaking of bread" had special significance.

Acts 2:42 NIV
The Fellowship of the Believers
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Acts 20:7 NIV
Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 10:16 NIV
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Saint Steven said:
Luke writes that the church in Troas was meeting on the first day of the week for the purpose of breaking bread.

Agreed the term in the NT refers to the Lord's Table - and as someone else noted in Acts 2 - it was "every day" in Jerusalem during Pentecost but not always "every day" in other contexts.

There was certainly "one meeting" in Acts 20 held as a farewell gathering where they came together tot break bread. That would have been a great place to insert "as we always do " or "as is our custom" or something if that was not simply one-off.
 
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BobRyan

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Glorytothefather2245 said:
I am a Sabbath keeper of course but i am looking for valid arguments as to why Sunday church goers go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday?

Because Jesus gave the Apostles authority to legislate such things.

1. Is there a text where Jesus said He gave someone the authority to edit the Word of God?

2. Is there some place where a NT writer said the Apostles had edited the Word of God or one of God's Commandments to point it to week-day-1?
 
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Saint Steven

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Because Jesus gave the Apostles authority to legislate such things.
But, is there actually any historic evidence that it was in fact "legislated" by the Apostles, as you say?

The Sabbatarians actually agree with you that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. That is their key complaint against the Church. (capital C)

They claim that the Church (the RCC) changed God's Sabbath law. They disagree that the Church had the authority to do that against God.

Key to this whole discussion is to ask both sides, When and how did this happen? There are a whole range of answers to those questions. Each one revealing.

If we look at council of Laodicea (336 AD), Canon 29, we can see that Sunday (the Lord's Day) was already the established day of rest/worship. The question was about a day of rest.

Council of Laodicea (336 AD), canon 29

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
 
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