Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?

GDL

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Okay. . .so if katakrima is physical death, etc.


Maybe it'll help to see spiritual > physical.

Immediate spiritual death came with physical death over time - physical death is being dealt with over time and the cure for spiritual death is immediate.

As for the servitude, sin and death do not rule us. Although we will experience physical death in a physical creation that is still subject to bondage and decay and looking forward to the freedom of the children of God, we are told we have in a sense eternal life now in Christ and have a guaranteed resurrection to the full experience of eternal life. We're even told we can live in a sense, a resurrection life now in Christ. Thus we have been freed from all the servitude to sin and death. We're also told that the last enemy that will be dealt with is death - which I see as mortality.

Spiritual > physical when He resurrects and removes the curse. All of His creation is being saved by Him, until He decides to deal with the last enemy in finality.
 
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Clare73

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Maybe it'll help to see spiritual > physical.
Christus Victor?
Immediate spiritual death came with physical death over time - physical death is being dealt with over time and the cure for spiritual death is immediate.
What does "dealt with" mean?

How is physical death dealt with over time. . .everyone still dies.
As for the servitude, sin and death do not rule us. Although we will experience physical death in a physical creation that is still subject to bondage and decay
And we, the redeemed, are that physical creation still subject to bondage and decay.
Although we will experience physical death in a physical creation that is still subject to bondage and decay and looking forward to the freedom of the children of God, we are told we have in a sense eternal life now in Christ
Perhaps this is where the problem is.

We are in possession of two kinds of life now, in actual reality (both physical reality and spiritual reality)--not "in a sense," but both of them living and operative now:

physical life (mortal) - of the body; natural; subject to aging and death

spiritual life (immortal) - of our spirit; received in the new birth to eternal (God's) life;
of God's own seed (John 1:13, John 3:6; 1 John 3:9; 1 Peter 1:23); never-ending
and have a guaranteed resurrection to the full experience of eternal life. We're even told we can live in a sense, a resurrection life now in Christ.
Precisely what does "resurrection life now in Christ" mean, which we can live in a sense?
Thus we have been freed from all the servitude to sin and death.
But we still die, our physical bodies are still sinful, corruptible, weak (i.e., natural) and they remain natural until death.
Only at the resurrection will our physical bodies be sinless, incorruptible, powerful (i.e., spiritual), for all eternity.
We're also told that the last enemy that will be dealt with is death - which I see as mortality.

Spiritual > physical when He resurrects and removes the curse. All of His creation is being saved by Him, until He decides deal withy the last enemy in finality.
It seems to me there is a conflating here of
physical reality with spiritual reality, of
an earthly natural life with an earthly spiritual life, with
condemnation as a natural event as well as a spiritual event.

I do not see Scripture presenting them that way.

The present earthly reality is:
physical - now our physical bodies are natural--sinful, decaying, weak, subject to sin and death.
spiritual - now our spirits are born of God's own seed, possessing eternal (God's own) life; governed by God's own Spirit; clothed with a rotting tent.

The future heavenly reality is:
physical - our physical bodies will be spiritual--sinless, incorruptible, glorious, as is Jesus' physical resurrection body.
spiritual - our spirits will be clothed with these glorious bodies as their dwelling place (tabernacle).

And katakrima (sentence) of humanity (Ro 5:16,18) is executed in the future, eternal, the second death.
Condemnation/sentence (Ro 8:1) is to the second death, a sentence to be executed at the final judgment.

Is this the way you see Scripture presenting these?
 
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GDL

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Perhaps this is where the problem is.

I began answering you point by point, then erased it all.

Our main contention seems to be what katakrima is, and what we were freed from. Your concern seems to be that we remain in a physical body subject to physical death.

Firstly, back to katakrima:

- My understanding of the word comes from at least 2 teachers from years ago, and from my subsequent personal studies from which I found concurrence, just looking at the Text.
- To answer you this time, I went back through 9 lexicons, and then 1 dictionary that I rarely look at. This resulted again in what I recall from working on this before. There is a lot of overlap and confusion related to the different forms of the word involved here. This can be seen in lexicons and translations. "Condemn" just seems to be a cover-all translation. Actual nuances seem lost in translation.
- Interestingly, the 1 dictionary I rarely refer to has this to say for katakrima (κατάκριμα), which I don't recall reading before, and don't think I did (highlighting & 1 translation insertion is mine):

2165 κατάκριμα [pg 327]
κατάκριμα.
Deissmann (BS p. 264 f.) quotes several passages from CPR I. where he thinks the word must be understood technically to denote “a burden ensuing from a judicial pronouncement – a servitude,” as in 115 ff. (A.D. 83–4) where a piece of land is transferred to the purchaser καθαρὰ ἀπὸ παντὸς ὀφειλήματος ἀπὸ μὲν δημοσίων τελεσμάτων πάντων καὶ @ἑτέρων εἰ]δῶν καὶ ἀρταβίων καὶ ναυβίων καὶ ἀριθμητικῶν καὶ ἐπιβολῆς κώμης καὶ κατακριμάτων πάντων καὶ παντὸς εἴδους, and 18814 f. (A.D. 105–6) where in a deed of sale similar expressions occur. To these exx. we may add P Oxy II. 2984 (i/A.D.) τοῦ κατακρίματος (δραχμῶν) Σ®, where though unfortunately the phrase follows an hiatus, the word is apparently = “a judgment” for a sum of money to be paid as a fine or damages. Cf. P Tebt II. 22865 (A.D. 107–8) καtaκ@ρ]i@μ(άτων)], where the editors point out that the reference is to “fines,” and compare ib. 36315 e*arly ii/A.D.), P Fay 661 (A.D. 185 or 217), and P Amh II. 1148 (A.D. 131); these fines were normally collected by πράκτορες, cf. Lk 12:58. It follows that this word does not mean condemnation but the punishment following sentence, so that the “earlier lexicographers” mentioned by Deissmann were right This not only suits Rom 8:1 admirably, as Deissmann points out, but it materially helps the exegesis of Rom 5:16, 18. There is no adequate antithesis between κρίμα and κατάκριμα, for the former never suggests a trial ending in acquittal. If κατάκριμα means the result of the κρίμα, the “penal servitude” from which οἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (translation = the ones in Christ Jesus) are delivered (8:1), δικαίωμα represents the “restoration” of the criminal, the fresh chance given him. The antithesis is seen better in ver. 18, for δικαίωσις is “a process of absolution, carrying with it life” (SH), which exactly answers to κατάκριμα, the permanent imprisonment for a debt we cannot pay: Mt 18:34 paints the picture of this hopeless state.
- Not only do I see this making sense in context, as I laid out before, but there seems to be some chiastic structure (parallelism) to Romans 5:16-18 that assists in explaining what Paul is speaking of:

A. One man sinned. The judgment resulted in katakrima (5:16)
B. By the violation/offense of the one man, the death reigned/ruled/controlled/exercised authority (5:17)​
A'. Through one violation/offence resulted in katakrima for all men

- In this structure the A & A' points are parallel, and the B point is central and tied to both. In this case it's elaborating on what is meant by katakrima here. The judgment put all men under the reign/rule/control/authority of death. Mankind is born into this imprisonment, so to speak. This is what Christ freed us from per 8:1.​
- Additionally, the wording itself provides more information: 5:17, in part is, again, elaborating on the point made in 5:16. 5:18 is a conclusion.​

The matter of spiritual vs. physical death:

- There is much more at play here than God just dealing with man. I brought this up earlier in this thread. God is also dealing with the angelic realm - the powers and authorities, until all are conquered by Him, and the last enemy - death - and by implication, sin (from which death stems) will be abolished/wiped out (1 Corinthians 15:24-26). The existence of sin and physical death remain a reality to deal with until then.

- However, death in any form has no ultimate authority over us (the katakrima) - we've been freed from its ultimate authority to result in eternal death:

NKJ John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

- In 25 physical death is still a reality in this current phase of existence, but it cannot hold us, because we have been freed from its ultimate control. I see 26 as essentially parallel and more literally says something like "will absolutely not die into the age (eternally)"

- Whoever is believing in Jesus Christ > Even if he dies he will live / All those living and believing in Jesus Christ will absolutely not die eternally. (death > resurrection to eternal life)
- As Paul said, we are no longer under the control of sin and death. Kill us today and we live tomorrow and into eternity, because Jesus Christ freed us from the katakrima resulting from the sin/violation/disobedience of Adam.

- The second death is not specifically being discussed in these verses, other than indirectly in regards to Christians not dying eternally, and the implication and knowledge from other Scripture that some who did not believe, will be sentenced to, and then exist in finality in eternal death - the second death - the first death being in Adam - from which they were never freed in Christ.​
 
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Clare73

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I began answering you point by point, then erased it all.
I think I might have liked to see that. Did it resolve my specific questions that have me stuck?
Our main contention seems to be what katakrima is, and what we were freed from. Your concern seems to be that we remain in a physical body subject to physical death.

Firstly, back to katakrima:

- My understanding of the word comes from at least 2 teachers from years ago, and from my subsequent personal studies from which I found concurrence, just looking at the Text.
- To answer you this time, I went back through 9 lexicons, and then 1 dictionary that I rarely look at. This resulted again in what I recall from working on this before. There is a lot of overlap and confusion related to the different forms of the word involved here. This can be seen in lexicons and translations. "Condemn" just seems to be a cover-all translation. Actual nuances seem lost in translation.
- Interestingly, the 1 dictionary I rarely refer to has this to say for katakrima (κατάκριμα), which I don't recall reading before, and don't think I did (highlighting & 1 translation insertion is mine):

2165 κατάκριμα [pg 327]
κατάκριμα.
Deissmann (BS p. 264 f.) quotes several passages from CPR I. where he thinks the word must be understood technically to denote “a burden ensuing from a judicial pronouncement – a servitude,” as in 115 ff. (A.D. 83–4) where a piece of land is transferred to the purchaser καθαρὰ ἀπὸ παντὸς ὀφειλήματος ἀπὸ μὲν δημοσίων τελεσμάτων πάντων καὶ @ἑτέρων εἰ]δῶν καὶ ἀρταβίων καὶ ναυβίων καὶ ἀριθμητικῶν καὶ ἐπιβολῆς κώμης καὶ κατακριμάτων πάντων καὶ παντὸς εἴδους, and 18814 f. (A.D. 105–6) where in a deed of sale similar expressions occur. To these exx. we may add P Oxy II. 2984 (i/A.D.) τοῦ κατακρίματος (δραχμῶν) Σ®, where though unfortunately the phrase follows an hiatus, the word is apparently = “a judgment” for a sum of money to be paid as a fine or damages. Cf. P Tebt II. 22865 (A.D. 107–8) καtaκ@ρ]i@μ(άτων)], where the editors point out that the reference is to “fines,” and compare ib. 36315 e*arly ii/A.D.), P Fay 661 (A.D. 185 or 217), and P Amh II. 1148 (A.D. 131); these fines were normally collected by πράκτορες, cf. Lk 12:58. It follows that this word does not mean condemnation but the punishment following sentence, so that the “earlier lexicographers” mentioned by Deissmann were right This not only suits Rom 8:1 admirably, as Deissmann points out, but it materially helps the exegesis of Rom 5:16, 18. There is no adequate antithesis between κρίμα and κατάκριμα, for the former never suggests a trial ending in acquittal.​
If κατάκριμα means the result of the κρίμα, the “penal servitude” from which οἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (translation = the ones in Christ Jesus) are delivered (8:1), δικαίωμα represents the “restoration” of the criminal, the fresh chance given him. The antithesis is seen better in ver. 18, for δικαίωσις is “a process of absolution, carrying with it life” (SH), which exactly answers to κατάκριμα, the permanent imprisonment for a debt we cannot pay: Mt 18:34 paints the picture of this hopeless state.
I don't know Greek, I have to use a dictionary for that. I need it in English.​
Best I can tell, "justification" is being defined as "restoration, fresh chance, and as "a process of absolution, carrying with it life," which limp at best.

I'll start here, because it contributes to the problem.
Justification by faith is specifically a one-time permanent judicial declaration of "not guilty;"
the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed, giving right standing with God's justice; i.e., righteous;
and the condemnation by the Law (curse on sin--God's wrath, 5:9) to eternal death removed.

The "chance" and the "process" suggest a work by the believer for the effecting of justification, when justification is totally by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28).

And then in 5:18, we have (the "not guilty" of eternal death) justification being set against
(the "guilty" of eternal death) condemnation, distinguishing for me the nature of the "condemnation."
This is probably the irresolvable part of our difference for me.

I don't see condemnation presented as a soft servitude, but as the hard wrath of God to eternal death, from which only justification by faith delivers us.
Not only do I see this making sense in context, as I laid out before, but there seems to be some chiastic structure (parallelism) to Romans 5:16-18 that assists in explaining what Paul is speaking of:
A. One man sinned. The judgment resulted in katakrima (5:16)
B. By the violation/offense of the one man, the death reigned/ruled/controlled/exercised authority (5:17)​
A'. Through one violation/offence resulted in katakrima for all men
- In this structure the A & A' points are parallel, and the B point is central and tied to both.​
In this case it's elaborating on what is meant by katakrima here. The judgment put all men under the reign/rule/control/authority of death. Mankind is born into this imprisonment, so to speak. This is what Christ freed us from per 8:1.
Death "reigns" as universal, unavoidable, certain, like gravity reigns. . .not as servitude or imprisonment during life.
- Additionally, the wording itself provides more information: 5:17, in part is, again, elaborating on the point made in 5:16. 5:18 is a conclusion.
The matter of spiritual vs. physical death:
- There is much more at play here than God just dealing with man. I brought this up earlier in this thread. God is also dealing with the angelic realm - the powers and authorities, until all are conquered by Him, and the last enemy - death - and by implication, sin (from which death stems) will be abolished/wiped out (1 Corinthians 15:24-26). The existence of sin and physical death remain a reality to deal with until then.​
But we don't "deal" with death, all we can do is accept it, like we accept gravity.
In life we "deal" more with gravity than with death.
Sin is all we actually deal with in this notion of servitude, and for that we have been given the Holy Spirit to enable us to overcome it.
- However, death in any form has no ultimate authority over us (the katakrima) - we've been freed from its ultimate authority to result in eternal death:
But it's not physical death that results in eternal death, it is sin that results in both.
NKJ John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
- In 25 physical death is still a reality in this current phase of existence, but it cannot hold us, because we have been freed from its ultimate control.​
The reprobate have likewise been freed from the same control. They too come back to life.
No special privilege there.
I see 26 as essentially parallel and more literally says something like "will absolutely not die into the age (eternally)"
- Whoever is believing in Jesus Christ > Even if he dies he will live / All those living and believing in Jesus Christ will absolutely not die eternally. (death > resurrection to eternal life)
- As Paul said, we are no longer under the control of sin and death. Kill us today and we live tomorrow and into eternity, because Jesus Christ freed us from the katakrima resulting from the sin/violation/disobedience of Adam​
- The second death is not specifically being discussed in these verses
I'm afraid that's all I do see as specifically discussed in these verses, because believers haven't been relieved of anything regarding physical death of which the unbeliever has not likewise been relieved.
other than indirectly in regards to Christians not dying eternally, and the implication and knowledge from other Scripture that some who did not believe, will be sentenced to, and then exist in finality in eternal death - the second death - the first death being in Adam - from which they were never freed in Christ.
Well, you've done a yeoman's job, and I'm am most grateful for all your work. . .but as you can see, this knot is not getting untied.

So, I'll let you stop beating this horse. . .it's not critical anyway, but it was good for me to examine my understanding in light of yours.

Again, thanks so much.​
 
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GDL

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I don't know or read Greek, I have to use a dictionary for that. I need it in English.Best I can tell, "justification" is being defined as "restoration, fresh chance, and "a process of absolution, carrying with it life," which limp at best.

No way I'm getting into a full discussion about justification with you again! I understand your concerns about the wording re: dikaiosis (justification), but the issue is the meaning of katakrima. Only one thing I'll say re: dikaoisis: justification is only one possible translation. Also accurate are: vindication, acquittal, deeming/declaring righteous. It's also a "setting right." Even "absolution" used by the author could be used. The point of 5:16-18, and then 18 itself is: sin/violation/disobedience > judgment > imprisonment > righteous act > justification/acquittal and 8:1 freedom from the imprisonment.

Death "reigns" as universal, unavoidable, certain, like gravity reigns. . .not as servitude or imprisonment during life.

We serve the ruler. In this case we were imprisoned serving death (and the one who has/had the power of death Hebrews 2:14). We lived a death-like life, serving sin and death. Now we have Life and will live even when we die and will absolutely not die eternally.

But we don't "deal" with death, all we can do is accept, like we accept gravity.
In life we "deal" more with gravity than with death.
We "deal" only with sin, and there we have been given the Holy Spirit to enable us to do so.

We deal with sin, the result of which is death (Romans 6:16, 23; James 1:15; 1 John 5:16) - thus, we deal with death. We accept physical death abiding in Christ knowing we have Life.

But it's not physical death that results in eternal death, it is sin that results in both.

Never said it was pd > ed. But pd will eventuate in ed for the unbeliever never having been justified/acquitted and freed from imprisonment. I did say that pd cannot hold us. In essence it's really not a major concern for us and can even be something we desire (2 Corinthians 5:8).

The reprobate have likewise been freed from the same control. They too come back to life.
No special privilege there.

Not true. They remain imprisoned under sin and death from Adam until they die physically, and are later resurrected to go into eternal death - the second death. They've never had Life, just life with the opportunity for Life.

I'm afraid that's all I do see as specifically discussed in these verses, because believers haven't been relieved of anything regarding physical death of which the unbeliever has not likewise been relieved.

I know this is where you're hung up. But there are different deaths in Scripture and experience, and life is not the same as Life. It seems clear you're not accepting this definition for katakrima mainly because of the physical death we still experience. But physical death has no power over Life and it is apparently necessary in God's dealings with the angelic realm and proving how those in Christ live and grow in Faith even in these bodies, thereby proving things to the angels (1 Corinthians 4:9; 11:10, etc.). I think they're (bodies) part of the fallen creation that God has not restored or replaced yet, but will.

Stop whenever you choose. Same for me. Then we'll resolve justification!
 
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Clare73

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No way I'm getting into a full discussion about justification with you again! I understand your concerns about the wording re: dikaiosis (justification), but the issue is the meaning of katakrima. Only one thing I'll say re: dikaoisis: justification is only one possible translation. Also accurate are: vindication, acquittal, deeming/declaring righteous. It's also a "setting right." Even "absolution" used by the author could be used. The point of 5:16-18, and then 18 itself is: sin/violation/disobedience > judgment > imprisonment > righteous act > justification/acquittal and 8:1 freedom from the imprisonment.



We serve the ruler. In this case we were imprisoned serving death (and the one who has/had the power of death Hebrews 2:14). We lived a death-like life, serving sin and death. Now we have Life and will live even when we die and will absolutely not die eternally.



We deal with sin, the result of which is death (Romans 6:16, 23; James 1:15; 1 John 5:16) - thus, we deal with death. We accept physical death abiding in Christ knowing we have Life.



Never said it was pd > ed. But pd will eventuate in ed for the unbeliever never having been justified/acquitted and freed from imprisonment. I did say that pd cannot hold us. In essence it's really not a major concern for us and can even be something we desire (2 Corinthians 5:8).



Not true. They remain imprisoned under sin and death from Adam until they die physically, and are later resurrected to go into eternal death - the second death. They've never had Life, just life with the opportunity for Life.



I know this is where you're hung up. But there are different deaths in Scripture and experience, and life is not the same as Life. It seems clear you're not accepting this definition for katakrima mainly because of the physical death we still experience. But physical death has no power over Life and it is apparently necessary in God's dealings with the angelic realm and proving how those in Christ live and grow in Faith even in these bodies, thereby proving things to the angels (1 Corinthians 4:9; 11:10, etc.). I think they're (bodies) part of the fallen creation that God has not restored or replaced yet, but will.
Stop whenever you choose. Same for me. Then we'll resolve justification!
Well, my story is Romans 3:26:
justification being the legal and formal acquittal from guilt by God as Judge,
the pronouncement of the sinner as righteous, upon the exercise of faith. . .
and I'm stickin' with it!
 
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GDL

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justification being the legal and formal acquittal from guilt by God as Judge,
the pronouncement of the sinner as righteous, upon the exercise of faith. . .

And that acquittal was from the krima of Adam which resulted in freedom from the katakrima which imprisoned/enslaved us to sin and death.

Simple...

Now from the freedom of Life to the resurrection to Eternal Life.
 
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ViaCrucis

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See, I agree. But putting that to the side, for arguments sake. If I am tempted by a desire that is contrary to God's will, isn't that sin? If there is within me even the slightest desire (which is what temptation is), isn't that sinful?

I think St. Augustine nailed it pretty squarely on the head, it becomes sin when the will succumbs to the temptation. When our will is bent toward the crooked alignment of sin, it is sin. Thus seeing a car is not a sin, neither is someone saying, "You should steal that car"; but when temptation becomes, "I want that car" and "I should have that car", and "That person shouldn't have that car, I should", etc--temptation is no longer just temptation, it has become a seed planted in our minds and hearts that, if not nipped in the bud, can be destructive. And thus the mortification of our flesh is not merely in the not doing, but in recognizing our own sinful thoughts and feelings--recognizing in ourselves that our will is out of alignment with God's will. And in that, confessing our sin, and repentance.

Of course--and this is supremely important--no one can live a righteous life in accordance with God's command; and thus our will is broken and bent by sin, and so our will is out of alignment with God's--if this were all that were to be said on the matter then there would be total hopelessness. We are sinners, even when we try really really really hard, we still mess up and fail. That isn't good news, and which is why the Law cannot justify the sinner.

Only the Gospel can do this, for through the Gospel is Christ who is righteous, and by whose life, death, and resurrection makes us right with God by His own gift of Himself to us. So that the one who is in Christ is justified by Christ. Having a righteousness apart from the Law, a righteousness that is through faith, the very righteousness of Jesus Himself. And in this righteousness our sins are forgiven, our wickedness cleansed, our hearts purified, and we have a new life in Christ, from God, by His grace, by which to live in hope and in faith. And in this we are saved, both now by God's gracious working in our lives, having given us this new life in Christ; but also in the end when we have passed through judgment to life, to that life that never ends. That life comes from Christ who was crucified and raised, and who ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father, which we have no by the grace of God through faith, and which shall become full in the resurrection of the dead and the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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public hermit

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I think St. Augustine nailed it pretty squarely on the head, it becomes sin when the will succumbs to the temptation. When our will is bent toward the crooked alignment of sin, it is sin. Thus seeing a car is not a sin, neither is someone saying, "You should steal that car"; but when temptation becomes, "I want that car" and "I should have that car", and "That person shouldn't have that car, I should", etc--temptation is no longer just temptation, it has become a seed planted in our minds and hearts that, if not nipped in the bud, can be destructive. And thus the mortification of our flesh is not merely in the not doing, but in recognizing our own sinful thoughts and feelings--recognizing in ourselves that our will is out of alignment with God's will. And in that, confessing our sin, and repentance.

Of course--and this is supremely important--no one can live a righteous life in accordance with God's command; and thus our will is broken and bent by sin, and so our will is out of alignment with God's--if this were all that were to be said on the matter then there would be total hopelessness. We are sinners, even when we try really really really hard, we still mess up and fail. That isn't good news, and which is why the Law cannot justify the sinner.

Only the Gospel can do this, for through the Gospel is Christ who is righteous, and by whose life, death, and resurrection makes us right with God by His own gift of Himself to us. So that the one who is in Christ is justified by Christ. Having a righteousness apart from the Law, a righteousness that is through faith, the very righteousness of Jesus Himself. And in this righteousness our sins are forgiven, our wickedness cleansed, our hearts purified, and we have a new life in Christ, from God, by His grace, by which to live in hope and in faith. And in this we are saved, both now by God's gracious working in our lives, having given us this new life in Christ; but also in the end when we have passed through judgment to life, to that life that never ends. That life comes from Christ who was crucified and raised, and who ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father, which we have no by the grace of God through faith, and which shall become full in the resurrection of the dead and the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree, and always appreciate your comments.

Later in the thread I give my position, which is basically first thoughts are not sinful. They can come out of nowhere. It's not something we can always control. Our responsibility begins in terms of what we do with those thoughts (temptations). Nip them in the bud, as you put it. I think that's close to what you're saying, perhaps (and Augustine).
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
justification being the legal and formal acquittal from guilt by God as Judge,
the pronouncement of the sinner as righteous, upon the exercise of faith. . .
And that acquittal was from the krima of Adam which resulted in freedom from the katakrima which imprisoned/enslaved us to sin and death.

Simple...

Now from the freedom of Life to the resurrection to Eternal Life.
I'm stickin' with "guilt" (above) and
"righteousness" of justification, through faith in Jesus' atoning blood (Ro 3:25), which
delivers from "eternal" death.
He died to free me from more than servitude to sin and physical death, from which death he did not free me, and could have simply given his Holy Spirit to remedy my slavery to sin. He didn't have
to die to free me from sin's servitude.

He had to die to free us, not from the servitude of sin, but from the debt of sin--eternal death.

Justification is about remedying the condemnation to eternal death, our penalty and debt for sin.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I agree, and always appreciate your comments.

Later in the thread I give my position, which is basically first thoughts are not sinful. They can come out of nowhere. Its not something we can always control. Our responsibility begins in terms of what we do with those thoughts (temptations). Nip them in the bud, as you put it. I think that's close to what you're saying, perhaps (and Augustine).

Nail on the head I think.

On the matter of unwelcome, sudden, or intrusive thoughts:

I think it is very important that we take seriously, and talk more frankly about mental illness. Intrusive thoughts are often symptoms of a mind victimized by mental illness; as someone who has lived with intrusive thoughts and scrupulosity, as well as severe anxiety and depression (as just an aside, yes I do take anti-anxiety medication, which has helped alleviate most of this in my day-to-day life), I am keenly aware of just how debilitating they can be to one's mental health. And in a religious context things can be exasperated. In my own experience, there are a lot of contributing factors, for example these things started to only become pronounced as I was entering into adolescence, and the general horrors of puberty only made things worse in my mind. I believed myself to be alone, not aware that I wasn't alone, unaware that I even may be suffering from some form of mental illness--we've only really started to openly talk about mental health openly and frankly in the last few years. In addition to this, certain theological ideas and impulses in the climate I was raised fed into my cycle of feeling hopeless.

So it's very important to take these matters of mental health very seriously. And that we don't make things worse for those who suffer--we don't add burdens onto people. Our Lord taught us that His yolk is easy, His burden light, that He gives us rest.

The harshness of the Law isn't to be preached to hurt people who are suffering. The harshness of the Law is to be preached to mortify our flesh and bring forward in us contrition and repentance for our sin. For real sin, not imaginary sin.

Too often, I think, we are more worried about imaginary sins, and then we don't worry about real sin.

Intrusive thoughts are not real sin, they are imaginary sin--not sinful, but there may be those who would want to condemn that which is only imaginary sin, rather than real sin.

Real sin isn't a random, stray, or intrusive thought. And we should encourage one another to not beat ourselves over the head over such things. There is no need to engage in self-flaggelation. Contrition is not self-harm, repentance is not hating ourselves. In this, there must be Gospel--the preaching of the God who meets us in our suffering, in Jesus, who gives us life, and life abundantly by His grace.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GDL

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And thus the mortification of our flesh is not merely in the not doing, but in recognizing our own sinful thoughts and feelings--recognizing in ourselves that our will is out of alignment with God's will. And in that, confessing our sin, and repentance.

And, at the thought level, we can approach our Great High Priest in the time of need, and ask for His assistance when struggling with sin even at the level of thought (Hebrews 4:14-16).

Nicely stated post.
 
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Clare73

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Nail on the head I think.

On the matter of unwelcome, sudden, or intrusive thoughts:

I think it is very important that we take seriously, and talk more frankly about mental illness. Intrusive thoughts are often symptoms of a mind victimized by mental illness; as someone who has lived with intrusive thoughts and scrupulosity, as well as severe anxiety and depression (as just an aside, yes I do take anti-anxiety medication, which has helped alleviate most of this in my day-to-day life), I am keenly aware of just how debilitating they can be to one's mental health. And in a religious context things can be exasperated. In my own experience, there are a lot of contributing factors, for example these things started to only become pronounced as I was entering into adolescence, and the general horrors of puberty only made things worse in my mind. I believed myself to be alone, not aware that I wasn't alone, unaware that I even may be suffering from some form of mental illness--we've only really started to openly talk about mental health openly and frankly in the last few years. In addition to this, certain theological ideas and impulses in the climate I was raised fed into my cycle of feeling hopeless.

So it's very important to take these matters of mental health very seriously. And that we don't make things worse for those who suffer--we don't add burdens onto people. Our Lord taught us that His yolk is easy, His burden light, that He gives us rest.

The harshness of the Law isn't to be preached to hurt people who are suffering. The harshness of the Law is to be preached to mortify our flesh and bring forward in us contrition and repentance for our sin. For real sin, not imaginary sin.

Too often, I think, we are more worried about imaginary sins, and then we don't worry about real sin.

Intrusive thoughts are not real sin, they are imaginary sin--not sinful, but there may be those who would want to condemn that which is only imaginary sin, rather than real sin.

Real sin isn't a random, stray, or intrusive thought. And we should encourage one another to not beat ourselves over the head over such things. There is no need to engage in self-flaggelation. Contrition is not self-harm, repentance is not hating ourselves. In this, there must be Gospel--the preaching of the God who meets us in our suffering, in Jesus, who gives us life, and life abundantly by His grace.

-CryptoLutheran
Intrusive thoughts, characteristic of mental illness, are not sin.
 
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GDL

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I'm stickin' with "guilt" (above) and
righteousness of justification, through faith in Jesus' atoning blood (Ro 3:25), which
delivers from "eternal" death.

It's funny how close you are but stickin to your...and how you keep stickin physical death in there.

Judged guilty (krima) > serving the sentence (katakrima) - justified/acquitted of the guilt (dikaōsis) > no more serving the sentence (katakrima Rom8:1) / freed (eleutheroō - Rom8:2).

Agreed, no eternal death just like I pointed out from John 11. Where do you see me saying the katakrima is just to physical death?
 
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Clare73

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It's funny how close you are but stickin to your...and how you keep stickin physical death in there.
Judged guilty (krima) > serving the sentence (katakrima) - justified/acquitted of the guilt (dikaōsis) > no more serving the sentence (katakrima Rom8:1) / freed (eleutheroō - Rom8:2).
Agreed, no eternal death just like I pointed out from John 11. Where do you see me saying the katakrima is just to physical death?
I guess I misunderstood you.
I thought you said we were in servitude to sin and physical death, that the katakrima was not to eternal death, but to servitude to sin and physical death, to which point I presented many objections.

I understand Scripture to be saying that Jesus' died to pay guilty sinners' debt of condemnation to eternal death.

I understand Scripture to be saying that Jesus' payment is applied to guilty sinners by faith, whereby their guilt of sin is removed, they are judicially declared "not guilty" (justification) by God the Judge, giving them right standing with God's justice, and Christ's own righteousness is imputed to them (Ro 5:19), reconciling them to God (Eph 2:16).

I don't understand Scripture to be directly and specifically relating our physical death to our sinner's debt of condemnation to eternal death, but rather to our fallen nature.
 
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GDL

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I don't understand Scripture to be directly and specifically relating our physical death to our sinner's debt of condemnation to eternal death, but rather to our fallen nature.

How are they not all tied together? Are you separating what took place in Genesis 2-3?
- If you eat you will surely die (some choose to see 2 deaths in the Hebrew - Dying you will die - Others just see emphasis - Surely die)
- Ate and eyes were opened and they hid (immediate spiritual death, at minimum, and beginning of physical death?)
- Ground cursed; all the days of life & until you return to the ground stated, so physical death clearly in view now.
- Spiritual death and physical death from original sin/violation/disobedience. Physical death clearly identified in the curse.
Agreed, this physical death situation is interesting, and death is a tough study, but, as we know, we still see the curse on the ground and physical death not yet lifted. Also, we see that we are in a sense going through something similar here, in Christ, to the testing He went through in a body of flesh (which kind of takes us back to the OP). We're in Him but also having to learn obedience, and depending upon your OSAS views, the testing is not inconsequential.

I've already brought up the verse re: the destruction of the last enemy - death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14, there will be no more death per Revelation 21:4 - all having to do with the second death - and no more curse in Revelation 22:3. So, apparently, God is still dealing with the curse and physical death, and will be doing so until the final judgment.

And then we have this:

ESV 2 Timothy 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

NET 2 Timothy 1:10 but now made visible through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus. He has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!

NIV 2 Timothy 1:10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Another, Already done and not yet done situation in our Text.

Point is, in Christ we've died and been resurrected, and death has no more power. We've been freed from being under its rule. Abiding in Christ and resurrected spiritually, we still groan and look forward to our assured physical resurrection (2 Corinthians 5:4). We're not ruled by sin and death, having been freed by Christ, but the curse is still physically active on the physical creation until the final judgment is completed.

Our differences are confusing - somewhat unclear.
 
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Clare73

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How are they not all tied together? Are you separating what took place in Genesis 2-3?
- If you eat you will surely die (some choose to see 2 deaths in the Hebrew - Dying you will die - Others just see emphasis - Surely die)
- Ate and eyes were opened and they hid (immediate spiritual death, at minimum, and beginning of physical death?)
- Ground cursed; all the days of life & until you return to the ground stated, so physical death clearly in view now.
- Spiritual death and physical death from original sin/violation/disobedience. Physical death clearly identified in the curse.
Agreed, this physical death situation is interesting, and death is a tough study, but, as we know, we still see the curse on the ground and physical death not yet lifted. Also, we see that we are in a sense going through something similar here, in Christ, to the testing He went through in a body of flesh (which kind of takes us back to the OP). We're in Him but also having to learn obedience, and depending upon your OSAS views, the testing is not inconsequential.

I've already brought up the verse re: the destruction of the last enemy - death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14, there will be no more death per Revelation 21:4 - all having to do with the second death - and no more curse in Revelation 22:3. So, apparently, God is still dealing with the curse and physical death, and will be doing so until the final judgment.

And then we have this:

ESV 2 Timothy 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

NET 2 Timothy 1:10 but now made visible through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus. He has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!
2 Timothy 1:10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Another, Already done and not yet done situation in our Text.
One of those eschatology completed/eschatology not yet fulfilled things.
We're back to physical death again.
Point is, in Christ we've died and been resurrected, and death has no more power.
Physical death still has power, we still die.
We've been freed from being under its rule. Abiding in Christ and resurrected spiritually, we still groan and look forward to our assured physical resurrection (2 Corinthians 5:4). We're not ruled by sin and death, having been freed by Christ, but the curse is still physically active on the physical creation until the final judgment is completed.
Being ruled by physical death is to physically die. Physical death still has power over us, we still die. It is eternal death that has no power over us because of the atonement which paid our debt of eternal death for sin.

The fact that we do die, as well as the atonement, make clear to me precisely which death of condemnation has been cancelled by Christ--eternal death. It's the reason he died.
Our differences are confusing - somewhat unclear.
Agreed, and it took me a while to understand what the real issue is.
I think the issue is atonement.

Substitutionary (as in the sacrifices) penal (as in ransom) atonement governs my understanding of "condemnation." That atonement removed our condemnation to eternal death, not physical death.
 
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GDL

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One of those eschatology completed/eschatology not yet fulfilled things.
We're back to physical death again.

Yes.
Just for you, not for me.

Agreed, and it took me a while to understand what the real issue is.
I think the issue is atonement.

I'll leave you to your conclusion (once again). Thanks for the respectful discussion.
 
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