Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

DavidPT · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
— Matthew 26:63-64

It’s definitely a first century event.

The part about initially sitting on the right hand of power is undeniably a first century event, as in because of the ascension back into heaven, so no argument there. But that doesn't automatically mean the part about coming on the clouds of heaven is also a first century event.

hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The interesting thing I note about that is the chronology. Notice that it has Him sitting on the right hand of power first, then coming on the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This chronology matches that, the fact He is obviously already sitting on the right hand of power before He is seen coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. If verse 30 is meaning 70 AD like Preterists insist, why would He need to come in great glory for an event like that? The text says they shall see Him coming in great glory. Who in 70 AD saw Him coming in great glory? And once again, why would He be coming in great glory if the event was meaning 70 AD? That makes zero sense to me.

BABerean2 · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
Does this relate to any of the discussions we are having?

For a person who asks for proof of the persecution promised in Matthew 10:5-23, and was given that proof in Paul's testimony in the scripture below, I do not know why you are still commenting on this thread.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Your viewpoint about Matthew 10:5-23 has already been proven to be wrong.
You can pretend otherwise, but all of those witnessing this thread know the truth about your false doctrine.
We have already proven Rome is not the wicked "great city" in Revelation 11:8.
We have also proven the location of the temple of God in Revelation 11 is found in Revelation 11:19.
Why would we believe what you say about Nero being the "beast"?

.

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

DavidPT said:
The part about initially sitting on the right hand of power is undeniably a first century event, as in because of the ascension back into heaven, so no argument there. But that doesn't automatically mean the part about coming on the clouds of heaven is also a first century event.

hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The interesting thing I note about that is the chronology. Notice that it has Him sitting on the right hand of power first, then coming on the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This chronology matches that, the fact He is obviously already sitting on the right hand of power before He is seen coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. If verse 30 is meaning 70 AD like Preterists insist, why would He need to come in great glory for an event like that? The text says they shall see Him coming in great glory. Who in 70 AD saw Him coming in great glory? And once again, why would He be coming in great glory if the event was meaning 70 AD? That makes zero sense to me.

I’ve explained it numerous times, so I’ll just ask you. In the OT, what does coming on the clouds mean? How would the first century Jews have understood it?

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Your viewpoint about Matthew 10:5-23 has already been proven to be wrong.
You can pretend otherwise, but all of those witnessing this thread know the truth about your false doctrine.

You disagree with me. That’s for sure.

BABerean2 said:
We have already proven Rome is not the wicked "great city" in Revelation 11:8.

I never claimed it was Rome. You might be mistaking me for someone else.

BABerean2 said:
We have also proven the location of the temple of God in Revelation 11 is found in Revelation 11:19.

I didn’t know we were discussing that.

BABerean2 said:
Why would we believe what you say about Nero being the "beast"?

Because it’s true whether or not you believe me.

BABerean2 · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
I’ve explained it numerous times, so I’ll just ask you. In the OT, what does coming on the clouds mean? How would the first century Jews have understood it?

Luke was a Gentile. What did he record for more of Gentile audience?

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem (subtitle from eSword)

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from eSword)

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

BABerean2 · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
I never claimed it was Rome.

If the Two Witnesses are not murdered in Rome, how can the beast that comes up out the pit in Revelation 11:7-8, be Nero?

.

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Luke was a Gentile. What did he record for more of Gentile audience?

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem (subtitle from eSword)

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from eSword)

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

One, you don’t know that Luke was a Gentile. Two, how does that answer my question?

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

BABerean2 said:
If the Two Witnesses are not murdered in Rome, how can the beast that comes up out the pit in Revelation 11:7-8, be Nero?

.

What makes you think they are literally two people?

Timtofly · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
You are reading this as a first century Jew. I actually gave you the verses to show that they were a nation as understood by the first century Jew. It was written for us, no to us.

I am viewing it as a first century predicament. Their kingdom was Edomite. Not even Israel. Their empire was Roman, not Israeli. They may have had nationality, but they were not a nation. Many citizens in the United States still identify with their ethnic nation, but they gave up being of that nation to be a citizen of the United States. Sometimes there is dual citizenship. Israel did not exist as a 12 tribe nation. It did not even exist as a 2 or 3 tribe nation. It was an Edomite kingdom in a Roman Empire. Why do you think there were so many rebellious uprisings? They wanted an identifiable nation.

Want and reality are two separate happenings in the first century. Some historist and preterist may even think Jesus was a failed rebel leader Himself trying to restore a National Israel. That is what the scribes and Pharisees seemed to keep accusing Jesus of doing. They wanted Him to just be another political leader, instead of accepting Him as God on earth.

Timtofly · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
What makes you think they are literally two people?

Did Nero visit Jerusalem? Did he destroy the testimony of God in Jerusalem? What proof do you have historically that matches the symbolism at least. Burning down Rome is hardly the same as John wrote happened. Did the Romans send each other presents because Rome was destroyed? What event could possibly equate to the destruction of spiritual influence by a climactic event of any city? When did a beast shut down Christianity period? Never. Christians have been non stop since named that in Antioch. And the destruction of Jerusalem did not end Judaism. It only stopped the yearly pilgrimage by millions from all over the earth. The local congregations kept on, because no emperor hunted down and eradicated evey last person in every last synagogue on earth. Any symbolism is only good, if it has some application in reality. Otherwise it just remains as a point of argument and never leaves the realm of discussion. That both Rome and Jerusalem were practically destroyed in the same decade is meaningless. Perhaps Satan started the fire in Rome to decieve the world? When God does it, there will be no guess work involved.

DavidPT · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
Because it’s true whether or not you believe me.

Something can involve sheer fantasy and still be the truth in the Bible?

If Nero was the beast, who was the false prophet working hand in hand with him at the time? Also, one is to seriously believe that Nero was cast alive into the lake of fire during the first century?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast(meaning Nero according to some Preterists) was taken, and with him the false prophet(these same Preterists apparently have no idea who this is meaning) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both(meaning Nero and the unidentified false prophet, if one is to believe some Preterists about this matter) were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And Preterists feel justified criticizing futurists about some of their interpretations, when the interpretation of Revelation `19:20 above by some Preterists has to be among the most bizarre interpretations one has ever encountered?

BABerean2 · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
What makes you think they are literally two people?

I do not.
Based on Revelation 11:4, and Revelation 1:20, and Romans 11:24, they are a symbol of the Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles grafted together into the same olive tree.

When did Nero ever murder members of the Church in earthly Jerusalem?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

.

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

Timtofly said:
I am viewing it as a first century predicament. Their kingdom was Edomite. Not even Israel. Their empire was Roman, not Israeli. They may have had nationality, but they were not a nation. Many citizens in the United States still identify with their ethnic nation, but they gave up being of that nation to be a citizen of the United States. Sometimes there is dual citizenship. Israel did not exist as a 12 tribe nation. It did not even exist as a 2 or 3 tribe nation. It was an Edomite kingdom in a Roman Empire. Why do you think there were so many rebellious uprisings? They wanted an identifiable nation.

Want and reality are two separate happenings in the first century. Some historist and preterist may even think Jesus was a failed rebel leader Himself trying to restore a National Israel. That is what the scribes and Pharisees seemed to keep accusing Jesus of doing. They wanted Him to just be another political leader, instead of accepting Him as God on earth.

Once again, how did the early Jews view it? Do you need more scripture? Okay.

Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”
— John 11:47-50

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

Timtofly said:
Did Nero visit Jerusalem? Did he destroy the testimony of God in Jerusalem? What proof do you have historically that matches the symbolism at least. Burning down Rome is hardly the same as John wrote happened. Did the Romans send each other presents because Rome was destroyed? What event could possibly equate to the destruction of spiritual influence by a climactic event of any city? When did a beast shut down Christianity period? Never. Christians have been non stop since named that in Antioch. And the destruction of Jerusalem did not end Judaism. It only stopped the yearly pilgrimage by millions from all over the earth. The local congregations kept on, because no emperor hunted down and eradicated evey last person in every last synagogue on earth. Any symbolism is only good, if it has some application in reality. Otherwise it just remains as a point of argument and never leaves the realm of discussion. That both Rome and Jerusalem were practically destroyed in the same decade is meaningless. Perhaps Satan started the fire in Rome to decieve the world? When God does it, there will be no guess work involved.

Pick one. It’s crazy to think I’ll answer all of these. Plus, posts like this reek of desperation.

Timtofly · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
Once again, how did the early Jews view it? Do you need more scripture? Okay.

Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”
— John 11:47-50

I said they viewed Jesus as just another political rebel.

The Atonement of the Cross was not to appease the Romans.

Would not Caiaphas be just like preterism seeing "scripture" in every day events? Caiaphas is a bad example of misquoting God's Word.

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

Timtofly said:
I said they viewed Jesus as just another political rebel.

The Atonement of the Cross was not to appease the Romans.

Would not Caiaphas be just like preterism seeing "scripture" in every day events? Caiaphas is a bad example of misquoting God's Word.

You still aren’t reading this as a first century Jew would. They would never understand it the way you do.

And the disciples didn’t view Jesus as a rebel.

Timtofly · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
Pick one. It’s crazy to think I’ll answer all of these. Plus, posts like this reek of desperation.

Not desperate, just thinking.

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

Timtofly said:
Not desperate, just thinking.

Regardless, I’m not going to answer every question. You should pick one and start a thread.

Timtofly · Apr 17, 2021

Hammster said:
You still aren’t reading this as a first century Jew would. They would never understand it the way you do.

And the disciples didn’t view Jesus as a rebel.

Why would any one claim that of the disciples?

Hammster · Apr 17, 2021

Timtofly said:
Why would any one claim that of the disciples?

I have no idea, unless they are trying to score debate points.

Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

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