Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

tall73 said:

A. James was keeping the entire law, including the feast days.

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No he wasn't. Was James keeping the laws of Leprosy? What about the laws of women? Where does it say that he was keeping the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices post after Christ death? If you believe that the Apostles practiced the old covenant laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices perhaps you can provide some scripture for your view? I cannot see any. That does not mean when they did not know any better after the resurrection at time they didn't do these things as there was a transitional period as the disciples continued to learn from the scriptures in regards to the fulfillment of the old covenant laws with the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Keep in mind the disciples of Jesus when he was crucified and even after His resurrection were in shock as they still believed Jesus to be the promised Messiah to deliver Israel as the conquering King which was not the reason for first His coming *Acts of the Apostles 1:6.

tall73 said:

James was not just referring to the ten commandments, but all the law in this passage:

Jas 2:1 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Jas 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jas 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,”
Jas 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
Jas 2:7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Jas 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
Jas 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

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Did you notice that you did not provide a single scripture here that supports your view that James is talking about keeping all the old covenant laws which was what your opening statement was claiming?

James in James 2:8-12 is talking about loving our neighbor as our self calling it the law of liberty while the context is giving the example of showing partiality to our fellow man give an example of the rich man and the poor man in James 2:1-7. James in James 2:8-12 then contrasts Gods' 10 commandments that are our duty of love and how we express our love to our fellow man showing that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin.

Paul also shows this in Romans 13:9 where he says that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up those of God's 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man. This is why Jesus says quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 "on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40 while John also agrees with Jesus, James and Paul when he says "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous in 1 John 5:2-3 and why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments in John 14:15 and that keeping God's commandments is how we show our love to God in John 15:10.

So no dear friend, God's Word does not teach anywhere that we are not free to break anyone of God's commandments (including Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments) according to James 2:10-11 and the other scriptures already provided here. If we do according to John we do not know God in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6 and Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23.

tall73 said:

Yet the Sabbath is included in Col. 2. And it is a shadow law, as a sign of the covenant with Israel, as an appointed time, with sacrifices and drink offerings, pointing to God's rest at creation, and God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt. Now if your argument is that we are Israel, then you need to start keeping feasts as well. But you are not..

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The Sabbath (God's 4th commandment) was not included as a "shadow law" in Colossians 2:16. It is the sabbath{s} plural to sabbaths or sabbath days {Genitive neuter plural} that sabbaton has application to in Colossians 2:16 the context of course is to the meat and drink offerings and the new moons that determine the seasons (Genesis 1:14) pointing to the Feast days and their sabbaths of the old covenant which were a shadow of things to come *Colossians 2:17.

That is in reference to the annual sabbaths in the Feast days that are the shadows of things to come not Gods' 4th commandment. There were many different types of sabbaths in the old covenant that are fulfilled in the new covenant promise. None of these however are in reference to Gods' weekly Sabbath which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11.

These annual shadow sabbaths connected to the Feast days included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36.

It is impossible that Colossians 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th commandment as it a part of the "finished work of creation" *Genesis 2:1-3. There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation for unfallen man when the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3. Now notice something very important. God's 4th commandment does not point forward to things to come *Colossians 2:17 it points backward (Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy - Exodus 20:8). Gods 4th commandment points backwards because it is a memorial of the finished work of creation and the celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth...

Lets look at the commandment that points backward not forwards...

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> {Because it is a memorial looking back to the finished work of creation that JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day} [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God {This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK}: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. {Reference is backward not forward to Genesis 2:1-3}

Therefore, it is impossible for God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath to be a "shadow law" as all the "shadow laws" are laws to do with God's plan of salvation from sin after the fall of mankind from the Mosaic book of the law. God's Sabbath was created when there was no sin, no fall, no law and no plan of salvation because mankind was in perfect harmony with God. – So there is nothing there in reference to Gods’ 4th commandment not being a requirement for Christian living in the new testament.

Hope this is helpful

tall73 said:

You have no biblical proof that Paul wrote Hebrews. And of course it is a hotly debated point who wrote it.

But you also changed the text.

Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God

The sabbath rest that remains is described in chapter 4, and is not the weekly Sabbath.

It is responding to him "Today" and resting from your works through the salvation provided.

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No I did not change anything in Hebrews 4:9. Now let's look at both the literal Greek meaning of σαββατισμός sabbatismos and add all the scripture contexts in to see if it is saying what Vines says it is saying we all also add in other Lexicons and see if they are in agreement with Vine's.

WHAT IS GOD’S REST IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4? (exegesis)

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into.

The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9 (exegesis)

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

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Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

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Let's look at what other Interlinear and Lexicons say...

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath keeping) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός
Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS LEXICON
So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive.
there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people.
of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός
σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. (Note the rest of Vines comments is not the Greek it is his opinion)

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

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Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day"). There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14.

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SUMMARY: God's rest is the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation. Our rest is that of believing and following Gods' Word. No one enters into God's rest (defined in Hebrews as the "seventh day Sabbath") unless they believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel rest). Of course God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) are a part of God's Word (the gospel) that God's people who enter into Gods rest believe and follow in Gods' Word just like Jesus did and the Apostles and prophets in Gods' Word. Everything provided here are not my words but have been taken directly from the scriptures which are God's Words not mine (exegesis). The warnings here are very clear. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word in order to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments - James 2:10-11) just like those in the wilderness do not enter into Gods' rest (seventh day Sabbath) and will be in danger of the judgement to come (Hebrews 10:26-31)

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Let's look at today in the next post

tall73 said:

It is responding to him "Today" and resting from your works through the salvation provided.

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HEBREWS 4:8 WHAT IS THE ANOTHER DAY

The key scriptures to help understand Hebrews 4:8 are the context of Hebrews 4:1-11. So why not look at them as you cannot expect to understand single scriptures devoid of context and build a doctrine around it. But it is true many seem to do just this though but lets not head in that direction. Let's look at all the scripture context.

HEBREWS 4
[1], LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT.
[2], FOR TO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT.
[3], FOR WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I HAVE SWORN IN MY WRATH, IF THEY SHALL ENTER INTO MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
[5], AND IN THIS PLACE AGAIN, IF THEY SHALL ENTER INTO MY REST.

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:1-5

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week and those who did not enter into God’s rest (Sabbath) did not do so because they did not believe and follow God’s Word (the gospel). The CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD (the Gospel that was preached unto them as well as unto us, with those of us entering into God’s Sabbath rest!

Let’s continue…

[6], SEEING THEREFORE IT REMAINS THAT SOME MUST ENTER THEREIN, AND THEY TO WHOM IT WAS FIRST PREACHED ENTERED NOT IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF

NOTE: Following on from the earlier contexts therefore it remains that some (those who believe and follow God’s Word – the gospel) and those who God’s Word (the gospel) was first preached did not enter in because of unbelief.

[7], Again, HE LIMITS A CERTAIN DAY, SAYING IN DAVID, TO DAY, AFTER SO LONG A TIME; AS IT IS SAID, TO DAY IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.

NOTE 1: He limits a certain day is in reference to David in Psalms 95 where David says…
[8], Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
[10], Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
[11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Compare this with Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4:1-11. This reference is a warning not to harden our hearts as those in the wilderness that did not enter into God’s seventh day Sabbath rest because of their unbelief and because they did not believe and follow God’s Word (the gospel).

HEBREWS 4:1-7 CONTEXT SUMMARY

(1). Both God’s people in the wilderness and us “today” have had the Gospel preached to us “for to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them” v2

(2). The gospel did not profit those in the wilderness because they did not believe and follow God’s Word.

(3). God’ rest is defined in the scripture context as God’s “seventh day Sabbath rest” v4-5

(4). Those who do not believe and follow the gospel do not enter into God’s “seventh day Sabbath rest” and those of us (today) that do believe and follow Gods’ Word (the gospel) do enter into God’s Sabbath rest v3

(5). Paul is also referencing David in Psalms 95 which is a warning not to harden our hearts to believe and follow God’s Word (the gospel) so that we can enter into Gods’ rest (the seventh day Sabbath) v8

Ok all of the above is the context so far lets continue.

[8], FOR IF JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST, THEN WOULD HE NOT AFTERWARD HAVE SPOKEN OF ANOTHER DAY.

Let’s put it all together. Both those in the wilderness and those of us “today” that have received the gospel of God’s Word have both had the gospel (Word of God) preached to us. Those who JESUS gave rest (Sabbath rest) are those of us who believe and follow God’s Word. By believing and following God’s Word we enter into Gods “seventh day Sabbath rest” as defined in Hebrews 4:4-5. The "another day" therefore is in reference to the gospel being preached "unto us" at the coming of the Messiah “Today if you will hear HIS VOICE {JESUS} harden not you’re your heart as in the day of the wilderness (Psalms 95; Hebrews 3). It is those of us that believe and follow God’s Word (the gospel) in JESUS "today" that enter into God’s rest which the context defines as the “seventh day sabbath”

[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into HIS REST, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER THAT REST, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9
Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

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SUMMARY: The another day is the coming of the messiah and the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ and only those who believe and follow his Word enter into his seventh day Sabbath rest. “Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Hope this helps.

BobRyan said:

I don't reject your point that "all have sinned" both Jews and gentiles and all need salvation. "every mouth... all the world" Rom 3:19-20.

My point is that "the details" in Gal 4:8-10 point to gentiles converted to Christianity from paganism and the worship of those things which are not god at all.. who then "return again" to those pagan practices and the proof in Gal 4 - is the observance of the days alone. That alone serves to condemn.

By contrast in Rom 14 no condemnation at all is tolerated for the observance of the Lev 23 annual holy days.

Neither Gal 4:8-10 or Rom 14 are dealing with the 10 Commandments or the Sabbath Commandment which is a bible detail admitted to by Bible scholars in all major Christian denominations (as noted earlier.)

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Thanks Bob, I can see where you're coming from in regards to Galatians 4:8,9 (gentiles Christians being converted from paganism and now return back to paganism)..

In Galatians 4:3..so also when "we" were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world..

Who do you think Paul is referring to in the galatians 4:3 (notice the same spiritual forces here also mentioned in Galatians 4:9) is it pagans Christians or All believers (Jews & Gentiles)?

The difference in see in observing special days, months, years, seasons in Galatians 4:10 is that everyone must observe it whether Jews or Gentile especially if you're Gentiles converted to Judaism.. ie Gentiles want to join the Jews religion they must be circumcise, observe Sabbath, new moon etc...(Paul reject this to force Gentiles to observe it)

Whereas in Romans 14, Paul says if anyone observe special day they must observe it to the Lord and not judge those who don't observe such days.. (is between the person and God not between one person and another since God accepted both)...

pasifika said:

Thanks Bob, I can see where you're coming from in regards to Galatians 4:8,9 (gentiles Christians being converted from paganism and now return back to paganism)..

In Galatians 4:3..so also when "we" were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world..

Who do you think Paul is referring to in the galatians 4:3 (notice the same spiritual forces here also mentioned in Galatians 4:9) is it pagans Christians or All believers (Jews & Gentiles)?

The difference in see in observing special days, months, years, seasons in Galatians 4:10 is that everyone must observe it whether Jews or Gentile especially if you're Gentiles converted to Judaism.. ie Gentiles want to join the Jews religion they must be circumcise, observe Sabbath, new moon etc...(Paul reject this to force Gentiles to observe it)

Whereas in Romans 14, Paul says if anyone observe special day they must observe it to the Lord and not judge those who don't observe such days.. (is between the person and God not between one person and another since God accepted both)...

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GALATIANS 4:4-11, [4], But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, [5], To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. [6], And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. [7], Therefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. [8], BUT THEN, WHEN YOU KNEW NOT GOD, YOU DID SERVICE UNTO THEM WHICH BY NATURE ARE NO GODS. [9], BUT NOW, AFTER YOU HAVE KNOWN GOD, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD, HOW TURN YOU AGAIN TO THE WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, TO WHICH YOU DESIRE AGAIN TO BE IN BONDAGE? [10], YOU OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS. [11], I AM AFRAID FOR YOU, LEST I HAVE BESTOWED UPON YOU LABOR IN VAIN.

Note v8-9 Paul is stating that these Galatians are returning back from following God to when they knew not God to serve those things that are not God to which they were previously in bondage to before they came to know God (important context).

GALATIANS 4:8-11 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, where unto ye desire again to be in bondage? [10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS. [11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

Note: Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths. Its speaking of those who observe times.

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-11 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Note: The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes?

2 CHRONICLES 33:3-6 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Note: Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEVITICUS 19:26-30 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

Nope

icedragon101 said:

Nope

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I love your answer. My advice to folks is if you are asked a direct question, give a direct answer. It is a pity there was no poll with this thread. BTW, my answer is also nope.

i used to be one, I hold a degree in SDA theology and was employed by the denomination for a few years. they have protestant, Jewish and Millerite teaching as well as semi-Arian views and have Prophet that lock into place any error they have, so they cannot change. They are Christian, but not orthodox. they could be if they got rid of their prophet. They could be Evangelical Protestant, I've seen it done.

icedragon101 said:

i used to be one, I hold a degree in SDA theology and was employed by the denomination for a few years. they have protestant, Jewish and Millerite teaching as well as semi-Arian views and have Prophet that lock into place any error they have, so they cannot change. They are Christian, but not orthodox. they could be if they got rid of their prophet. They could be Evangelical Protestant, I've seen it done.

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The only group I know that was able to do that successfully was the Worldwide Church of God. Others, such as the LDS and SDA, have bound themselves firmly in the grip of their founders.

icedragon101 said:

they have protestant, Jewish and Millerite teaching as well as semi-Arian views and have Prophet that lock into place any error they have, so they cannot change. They are Christian, but not orthodox. they could be if they got rid of their prophet. They could be Evangelical Protestant, I've seen it done.

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Nonsense.

LoveGodsWord said:

Nonsense.

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I entirely agree. Much of the doctrine that distinguishes the SDA from orthodox Christianity is nonsense.

bbbbbbb said:

I entirely agree. Much of the doctrine that distinguishes the SDA from orthodox Christianity is nonsense.

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If your asking are SDA teachings exactly the same as mainstream Christianity or the 40,000 different beliefs within Christianity as we see it today, they are not as we seek to follow the scriptures as close as possible. So what does it mean to be orthodox when there is so many (40,000) different beliefs within Christianity? In the days of Jesus the mainstream religious teachers of the day called Jesus from the devil and His followers a cult. We can see nothing new has changed today for all those who reject Gods' Word in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men over God's Word. What is it that you disagree with and why (scriptures please)?

LoveGodsWord said:

If your asking are SDA teachings exactly the same as mainstream Christianity or the 40,000 different beliefs within Christianity as we see it today, they are not as we seek to follow the scriptures as close as possible. So what does it mean to be orthodox when there is so many (40,000) different beliefs within Christianity? In the days of Jesus the mainstream religious teachers of the day called Jesus from the devil and His followers a cult. We can see nothing new has changed today for all those who reject Gods' Word in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men over God's Word. What is it that you disagree with and why (scriptures please)?

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In the first century, and in all subsequent history of religions of every stripe, there have been those who follow the orthodox path of their religion and those who choose not to for a myriad of reasons. By your own admission the SDA is on its own path within the broader Christian tradition.

bbbbbbb said:

In the first century, and in all subsequent history of religions of every stripe, there have been those who follow the orthodox path of their religion and those who choose not to for a myriad of reasons. By your own admission the SDA is on its own path within the broader Christian tradition.

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No. If your saying that 40,000 forms of Christianity all with different beliefs are orthodox and SDA's are a cult and devil worshipers then no we are not orthodox as we seek to follow what Gods' Word says. The mainstream teachers of the day in Jesus time also held a number of different beliefs. These also called Jesus of the devil and His followers a cult and persecuted them seeking to put them to death and silence their words. What has changed today?

bbbbbbb said:

Much of the doctrine that distinguishes the SDA from orthodox Christianity is nonsense.

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Nope. where we differ the SDA POV passes the sola-scriptura test but not the sola-tradition test.

bbbbbbb said:

I entirely agree. Much of the doctrine that distinguishes the SDA from orthodox Christianity is nonsense.

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Either you can defend your beliefs with sound scripture or you can't. If you can't, then your beliefs may indeed be the nonsense you speak of. This goes for any professing Christian, not just SDA.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Oh, this thread has been resurrected.

I'm curious. Without searching through 72 pages of posts, can someone tell me whether the SDA denomination accepts the Nicene Creed? Also, how many of the seven ecumenical councils does the SDA accept?

ChetSinger said:

Oh, this thread has been resurrected.

I'm curious. Without searching through 72 pages of posts, can someone tell me whether the SDA denomination accepts the Nicene Creed? Also, how many of the seven ecumenical councils does the SDA accept?

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I've been a life-long SDA (minus my hiatus). Until I started posting on Reddit Christian forums in 2018, I had never heard of the Nicene Creed. To my knowledge, SDA do not profess any official creed (aside from our statement of faith) or acceptance of any ecumenical councils.

Freth said:

I've been a life-long SDA (minus my hiatus). Until I started posting on Reddit Christian forums in 2018, I had never heard of the Nicene Creed. To my knowledge, SDA do not profess any official creed (aside from our statement of faith) or acceptance of any ecumenical councils.

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Thanks for your answer.

ChetSinger said:

Oh, this thread has been resurrected.

I'm curious. Without searching through 72 pages of posts, can someone tell me whether the SDA denomination accepts the Nicene Creed? Also, how many of the seven ecumenical councils does the SDA accept?

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no it does not