The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How about answering the question. The vast majority of Christiandom doesn't buy into UR. Do they all have a fake faith?

I thought I did answer the question. It's not for me to judge the faith of others (Lord have mercy), but it is hard to reconcile that glaring contradiction, and I do tend to find that it often results in a faith which is really no more than a kind of works theology motivated by the terror of eternal torment, which is to my mind not a foundation for real faith in Christ, because it short-changes him at a very elementary level. Jesus comes to save the world but only ends up saving a remnant. Is that your view? If so, how do you reconcile the inherent contradiction?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
  • Haha
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I thought I did answer the question. It's not for me to judge the faith of others (Lord have mercy), but it is hard to reconcile that glaring contradiction, and I do tend to find that it often results in a faith which is really no more than a kind of works theology motivated by the terror of eternal torment, which is to my mind not a foundation for real faith in Christ, because it short-changes him at a very elementary level. Jesus comes to save the world but only ends up saving a remnant. Is that your view? If so, how do you reconcile the inherent contradiction?
There's no contradiction. The " whosever" isn't everyone.
When you say things like "Jesus came to save the world" a little context is important.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There's no contradiction. The " whosever" isn't everyone.
When you say things like "Jesus came to save the world" a little context is important.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life.

Yes, so the context is that people are perishing, the world is passing away, condemned to death by love of sin. But God has a solution, which is Jesus Christ. God has promised that He will save all, that all will be blessed, that He desires all to be saved and that He will be all in all. Now, if all that needs to happen is that a person has to turn to Jesus and believe in order to be saved, how hard is it ultimately for God to make that happen? And the vehicle is tribulation, followed by Armageddon where the veils of deception are removed.

Now I know Jerusalem is stubborn and would not, but God's power to overcome unbelief is limitless, as has been proven at Calvary and beyond. So again, God wants everyone saved, He sent Jesus for that very purpose, and He says ultimately it will happen.

So what am I missing here? It feels to me like you're looking for an escape clause.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No he doesn't.

Isaiah 45:23
As reiterated by the Spirit in:
Romans 14:11
Philippians 2:9-10

What does Jesus is the alpha and omega mean, if not that salvation has the last word?
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Isaiah 45:23
As reiterated by the Spirit in:
Romans 14:11
Philippians 2:9-10

What does Jesus is the alpha and omega mean, if not that salvation has the last word?
None of those quotes implies salvation. Only submission.
It simply means Jesus is eternal, nothing to do with who will be saved and who won't.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
None of those quotes implies salvation. Only submission.

Well, the only condition to being saved is a true confession of faith. When God promises that every tongue will confess, do you believe it's like a Roman victory, where the vanquished are forced to 'say uncle'?

It simply means Jesus is eternal, nothing to do with who will be saved and who won't.

Well eternity doesn't have a beginning and an end. Wouldn't it defeat the purpose if 'Salvation' ultimately stood alone in victory atop a pile of corpses?
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, the only condition to being saved is a true confession of faith. When God promises that every tongue will confess, do you believe it's like a Roman victory, where the vanquished are forced to 'say uncle'?



Well eternity doesn't have a beginning and an end. Wouldn't it defeat the purpose if 'Salvation' ultimately stood alone in victory atop a pile of corpses?
Doesn't sound like a confession of Faith to me. They will have to confess to give God glory, but it doesn't say anything about their salvation.
At the end of the book we have some people inside the city and outside are all the ones who didn't accept Christ.. but you want to add on a whole chapter that isn't there, where everyone gets irresistibly drawn in and we all sing kumbaya together I guess.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Doesn't sound like a confession of Faith to me. They will have to confess to give God glory, but it doesn't say anything about their salvation.

Not sure how God gets any more glory than Caesar if he doesn't truly convert His enemies. Isn't that the whole point of 'love they enemy', 'forgive them Father', etc? How are the core tenets of Christianity served by forced confessions and perfunctory genuflections?

At the end of the book we have some people inside the city and outside are all the ones who didn't accept Christ.. but you want to add on a whole chapter that isn't there, where everyone gets irresistibly drawn in and we all sing kumbaya together I guess.

I don't need to add a chapter, just use basic reason. God is making all things new, the Pearly Gates stand open and the healing leaves and water of life awaits for those who can overcome. And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all (Rev 22:21). I don't really understand why you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't need to add a chapter, just use basic reason. God is making all things new, the Pearly Gates stand open and the healing leaves and water of life awaits for those who can overcome. And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all (Rev 22:21). I don't really understand why you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here.
I'm not snatching anything from anything. I'm just believing what I read in scripture instead of adding to it.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Are you still beating up on animals?

Are you accusing those who don't agree with the members of not being Christian?

You might want to note the recipient found it funny rather than accusatory.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,751
9,860
The Keep
✟571,290.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Doesn't sound like a confession of Faith to me. They will have to confess to give God glory, but it doesn't say anything about their salvation.
At the end of the book we have some people inside the city and outside are all the ones who didn't accept Christ.. but you want to add on a whole chapter that isn't there, where everyone gets irresistibly drawn in and we all sing kumbaya together I guess.

The thing that's stood out to me for a long time is, it says the gates of the city will never be closed.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,751
9,860
The Keep
✟571,290.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You might want to note the recipient found it funny rather than accusatory.

That's good to hear. I certainly wouldn't want any of us holding any grudges against each other. But it wasn't an accusation, it was an honest question because that's what it sounded like to me when you said, "You guys need to write your own Bible, and leave ours alone".

But as far as that goes on a more humorous note:

BpNpuv1.png
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The thing that's stood out to me for a long time is, it says the gates of the city will never be closed.
Well it also talks about the nations, so I don't know that everyone outside is outside in the same sense.

" The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

That seems pretty exclusive. Seems to indicate there will be many who will never enter.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,751
9,860
The Keep
✟571,290.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well it also talks about the nations, so I don't know that everyone outside is outside in the same sense.

" The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

That seems pretty exclusive. Seems to indicate there will be many who will never enter.

Maybe the gates are open for us to go out and hand out invitations.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:26-27
Not all Israel is Israel.
 
Upvote 0