Creationism/Evolution

JacksBratt

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First of all, you acknowledge that not everything in the Bible is literal so by your own words in post191, you yourself are not a bible believing christian.
I take everything as literal.
You can "literally" be compared to a tornado if you are a fast moving destructive person in the kitchen.

I stated, quite clearly, that denying that creation was six literal days... and saying that it should not be taken literally... is quite different than expecting someone to believe that Jesus is the "lamb" or "door" or "vine".

Using these to say that nobody takes the bible literally... IMO... is disingenuous.

I know you don't believe that the moon is technically a body of light in the same sense as the sun and moon, nor do you think Gen 1:16 technically means that.

Another cast and another empty hook... If you want to debate the "Moon as it's own light source".. go to that thread.

This thread is about creation and evolution.

What about Gen 3:1 and 3:14: is satan literally and originally a reptile, do snakes literally eat dirt, will we be literally punching/kicking satan in the head? Should we literally believe this to be bible believing christians?


Just more of the same...

Stating that the earth was created in six literal days while out right describing each day and what was created... punctuating each day with "there was evening, there was morning the "next" day... is not in the same league as using metaphors as you have described. It is clear and reinforced clear that this is six literal days.



The reason why we know the world was not literally created in 6 days is because it is scientifically proven false. It's all metaphorical just like the examples given in this post.

It's also scientifically proven that you cannot make water into fine wine in a millisecond..

It is also scientifically proven that a man cannot walk across large bodies of water.

It is also scientifically proven that you cannot feed 5000 plus people with two fish and five bread buns and have 12 full baskets of leftovers.

It is also scientifically proven that men cannot walk around inside huge fires of intense heat.

It is also scientifically proven that a man cannot suffer beating, flogging, crucifixion, a spear shoved through their heart, burial and then come back from the dead and sit and talk and eat with over 500 people and walk through walls....

BUT.. you believe these because, although proven to be unscientific... your mortal soul depends on you believing it in order to have eternal life.

Therefore... if you want to play the "proven to be unscientific" card... your soul is lost.

Remember.. God will make those who are supposedly wise.. to be fools.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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Cis.jd

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I take everything as literal.
You can "literally" be compared to a tornado if you are a fast moving destructive person in the kitchen.
You can't be literally compared to a tornado, that is what you call a figure of speech. It looks like you don't know what literal means just by what you said in the beginning of your post.

I stated, quite clearly, that denying that creation was six literal days... and saying that it should not be taken literally... is quite different than expecting someone to believe that Jesus is the "lamb" or "door" or "vine".
The only difference is how obvious those Jesus metaphors are but they are not literal. The point being is that you yourself do not accept everything in the Bible literally, Which is very inconsistent to your posts most importantly on #191.

Another cast and another empty hook... If you want to debate the "Moon as it's own light source".. go to that thread.

This thread is about creation and evolution.
But Gen 1:16 is part of the creation story, it is part of the "6 days" that you say is literal. It's odd how you think this that has nothing to do with the discussion. I think you just do not want to admit that there are details in that 6 day creation story that you don't accept is exactly factual.

It's also scientifically proven that you cannot make water into fine wine in a millisecond.. snip
Wrong. In order for something to be scientifically proven false there has to be counter evidence, more importantly proof. There is no counter evidence against Jesus' divinity, so any miracle he did is not scientifically proven false yet... but there is counter evidence against a literal 6th day creation.


BTW: I don't believe because "my soul depends on it". I don't view
 
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JacksBratt

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You can't be literally compared to a tornado, that is what you call a figure of speech. It looks like you don't know what literal means just by what you said in the beginning of your post.

The only difference is how obvious those Jesus metaphors are but they are not literal. The point being is that you yourself do not accept everything in the Bible literally, Which is very inconsistent to your posts most importantly on #191.
You were the one who brought up the whole "vine" comparison.

I was the one who stated that comparison's to such metaphorical content was moot.

But Gen 1:16 is part of the creation story, it is part of the "6 days" that you say is literal. It's odd how you think this that has nothing to do with the discussion. I think you just do not want to admit that there are details in that 6 day creation story that you don't accept is exactly factual.

You have already correctly stated my feelings on the moon. It is not just Genesis 1:16.. but:
Mark 13:24

King James Version



24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

However, if you want to debate this you will have to do it in another thread.. I state this to show that I do take all scripture literally.




Wrong. In order for something to be scientifically proven false there has to be counter evidence, more importantly proof. There is no counter evidence against Jesus' divinity, so any miracle he did is not scientifically proven false yet...
It is physically impossible and unscientific to produce great wine with only water and a clay pot.. let alone in an instant, simple due to the material that would be necessary.
It is physically impossible to feed 5000 people and produce baskets of left overs due to the law of the conservation of mass.

All the others are also totally outside of the physical, chemical, biological and material laws of science.

There are events and concepts that even a child can understand to be outside the of the physical bounds of this earth, without being scientifically proven.

In order for you to state that they are not scientifically impossible.. you would have to prove them scientifically possible. Which.. they are not.



but there is counter evidence against a literal 6th day creation.

Only the musing of Atheistic, Dawrinian evolutionist men and women.

I hold very strongly to the idea that, when we meet our savior and we learn all there is to know of the history and events of the past and future... it will not be those that held to God's word that will be surprised and corrected...

It will be those that held to the wisdom of men.

I will stand by the word of God until my dying day. Not just the part where He miraculously died and came back to life.



BTW: I don't believe because "my soul depends on it". I don't view

I don't understand what this means.


One final question:

Could God create our universe like the Bible says He did?
 
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VladTheEmailer

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Dear Simon D

Here is a video series presented by a converted Scientist. He was an atheist and evolutionist who gave lectures at a university and then he got converted and now gives lectures to show that creation is the truth, rather than evolution.

Click: The Genesis Conflict

I think you will enjoy it.
:hibiscus::cherryblossom::hibiscus:

Why would you think that the majority of Creationists would enjoy a seventh day adventist view?
 
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Cis.jd

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You were the one who brought up the whole "vine" comparison.

I was the one who stated that comparison's to such metaphorical content was moot.
That was in reference to your post in #191, so i'm challenging your statement on that. How you view the comparison doesn't mean anything, the point is you don't take everything in the Bible literally either, such as "I am the vine".

You have already correctly stated my feelings on the moon. It is not just Genesis 1:16.. but:
Mark 13:24
But the context Gen 1:16 is against your arguments about the 6 days, because it's part of it.

It is physically impossible and unscientific to produce great wine with only water and a clay pot.. let alone in an instant, simple due to the material that would be necessary.
It is physically impossible to feed 5000 people and produce baskets of left overs due to the law of the conservation of mass.
In order for you to state that they are not scientifically impossible.. you would have to prove them scientifically possible. Which.. they are not.
No, that is only when you are making an innovation that has not been documented yet but when it's about debunking something that is historical then you would need evidence against the claim. There is no evidence against Jesus, but there is evidence against the world being made in just 6 days.


I hold very strongly to the idea that, when we meet our savior and we learn all there is to know of the history and events of the past and future... it will not be those that held to God's word that will be surprised and corrected...

It will be those that held to the wisdom of men.
And you are one of those who hold to the wisdom of men. You are standing by your own views. Bible literalists minimized and falsifies God, it makes him to be nothing greater than a few sentences while ignoring how he has shown his greater brilliance through the universe that he created, while at the same time making him refutable.

Could God create our universe like the Bible says He did?
He could, but he did not... if he did, the universe would show such.
 
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JacksBratt

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That was in reference to your post in #191, so i'm challenging your statement on that. How you view the comparison doesn't mean anything, the point is you don't take everything in the Bible literally either, such as "I am the vine".

Oh my goodness... a metaphor is way different than stating that He created the universe in six literal days.

You can say that someone is a "Bean pole" and everyone would know that they are tall and skinny.
You can say that someone is a "firecracker" "sloth" "loudspeaker" and everyone will know what you mean..

You cannot say that God told us that He created the universe in six days... and have a metaphor to anything. Especially not when He described each day and ended with "there was evening, there was morning, the first day".


But the context Gen 1:16 is against your arguments about the 6 days, because it's part of it.

What?



No, that is only when you are making an innovation that has not been documented yet but when it's about debunking something that is historical then you would need evidence against the claim. There is no evidence against Jesus, but there is evidence against the world being made in just 6 days.

So, there is evidence for Christ walking on water? Feeding 5000 people and collecting 12 baskets of leftovers, making large jugs of wine in an instant with only water? Raising the dead? Healing the deaf, dumb, lame and sick? ... Other than the same book that states that He created the universe in six days?



And you are one of those who hold to the wisdom of men.
Which men?
You are standing by your own views.
Which views are my own?
Bible literalists minimized and falsifies God, it makes him to be nothing greater than a few sentences while ignoring how he has shown his greater brilliance through the universe that he created, while at the same time making him refutable.

Actually, believing what is written in the scriptures can only exhault God as a truthful, solid, righteous and all powerful God.. Only He could do all that is written in those pages... as they are written.

People that don't take the bible as literal make Him a liar and take the power from Him to do exactly what He said... as He said it.


He could, but he did not... if he did, the universe would show such.

So, you state that He could.. and we know that He told us that He did. If He did it differently... why wouldn't He tell us? Why would He state all that detail and explain the time frame... If He did it differently?

Men can look at something from the past and make up all kinds of stories and scenarios if they don't want it to be "God".

I believe, in the end.. all will line up with what God told us.. and the errors of the so called wisdom of men will be shown for it's errors.

There are those with education in the fields of study that concern that time in history.. that hold to the six literal days.
 
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Cis.jd

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Oh my goodness... a metaphor is way different than stating that He created the universe in six literal days.
Read your post at #191 because you are confused on what is being talked about. Even if you think there is a difference in the metaphors, the point is you acknowledge that not everything in the Bible is literal.
Therefore by what you said in post #191, you yourself are not a bible believing christian.

You cannot say that God told us that He created the universe in six days... and have a metaphor to anything. Especially not when He described each day and ended with "there was evening, there was morning, the first day".

Yes I can, especially when the details with in the entire story are all metaphorical and there is evidence in the universe that taking it literally is false.

How can you not understand this whole thing about the moon in Gen 1:16?

there is evidence for Christ walking on water? Feeding 5000 people and collecting 12 baskets of leftovers, making large jugs of wine in an instant with only water? Raising the dead? Healing the deaf, dumb, lame and sick? ... Other than the same book that states that He created the universe in six days?
Since I think there is evidence of Christ then yes, i think the same with those miracles. The way to disprove something of a historical claim is by providing evidence against it. I need evidence that Jesus was not what I believe him to be first before I can cast doubt on his miracles.

Which men?
Which views are my own?
You and Everything you've just been arguing.

Actually, believing what is written in the scriptures can only exhault God as a truthful, solid, righteous and all powerful God.. Only He could do all that is written in those pages... as they are written.
People that don't take the bible as literal make Him a liar and take the power from Him to do exactly what He said... as He said it.
You believe what you've interpreted, not what the scriptures truly teach. I think you really need to know what "literal" means for you to think that is the same as a lie is wrong (not to mention the tornado part). Why are you arguing when you do not know what the word means?

So, you state that He could.. and we know that He told us that He did.
But the universe is also a testament to him, and this universe provenly shows he did more than what Moses wrote. We have factual proven evidence that God is more brilliant than what a few sentences describes but you literalists shrink him to be so small that he is perfectly understood by just a chapter..you make him look obtuse and fictional... hence causing others not to believe in him.
 
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coffee4u

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And you are one of those who hold to the wisdom of men.

Accepting the Bible as written is 'holding onto the wisdom of men' are you kidding?

Believe whatever you want but we will continue to believe what the Bible says regardless of what scientists (who are just men and women) think they know.
 
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Cis.jd

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Accepting the Bible as written is 'holding onto the wisdom of men' are you kidding?

Believe whatever you want but we will continue to believe what the Bible says regardless of what scientists (who are just men and women) think they know.

What you think the Bible is saying is based off your own narrow understanding. God is never wrong, and since your views on what you think the Bible says is obtuse then your views are not of God or his word.
 
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ryan_abc

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Here are some of my thoughts about this topic.

It says in Genesis that on the *first day* God said "let there be light". If there was no division between light and dark, then how could there even be a *first* day by our measure? I don't know... perhaps the concept of a day for God is (or was) a lot different to what it is for us now. I'm in the process of reading the Bible, and I found a verse that kind of supports this way of thinking. The verse is 2 Peter 3:8

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day".

So we know a day for God can be a lot longer than our concept of a day. Perhaps even long enough to account for things like evolution (if you want to believe in that)... the Bible doesn't go into this level of detail. For me personally, I believe in creation, but I also believe in some aspects of evolution e.g. the constant battle between predators and prey where the weak and slow die and the strong and fast survive... this results in a survival of the fittest.
 
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coffee4u

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What you think the Bible is saying is based off your own narrow understanding. God is never wrong, and since your views on what you think the Bible says is obtuse then your views are not of God or his word.

Then you tell me what this means, since according to you us poor creationists can't understand a word of scripture but you can.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Please enlighten us to what it actually means.
 
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Cis.jd

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Then you tell me what this means, since according to you us poor creationists can't understand a word of scripture but you can.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Please enlighten us to what it actually means.
Sure, the days are being made symbolically to represent the creation, but it's not confirming God made it in literal 6 days.

If you are suggesting that Ex 20:11 is evidence of a literal 6 day creation, then you must explain how God is NOT limited/bound to the same nature of time as we are, any reply you make to try contradict what i'm saying, you will be held to explain this because you are suggesting such. Days happen because the Earth rotates on it's axis where the sun is facing; this is how we experience/count a day. Days are only experienced on earth, not in outer space because we are subjected to nature. You think that is the same to God? So just logically, how can you actually see these days to be literal statements and nothing more than our way of representing how he created everything?
 
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JacksBratt

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Since I think there is evidence of Christ then yes, i think the same with those miracles.

Since there is evidence of Christ I will believe in the miracle of the six literal days due to the simple fact that Christ was the one who created the universe in those six days.. Just as He walked on water, fed the 5000, turned water to wine and all the other miracles that you state that you believe based on the evidence of Him.

Colossians 1:16-20

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

John 1:2-3



2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


Other than that, I'll have to agree to disagree.
 
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JacksBratt

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Here are some of my thoughts about this topic.

It says in Genesis that on the *first day* God said "let there be light". If there was no division between light and dark, then how could there even be a *first* day by our measure?

Because a day is not based on how fast the sun and moon. God made the sun and moon to pace them with the already existing length of the day.

The length of time for a day was established.. then the sun, moon and stars were place in the firmament in order to measure and mark this already established length of times and seasons.



"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day".

So we know a day for God can be a lot longer than our concept of a day. Perhaps even long enough to account for things like evolution (if you want to believe in that)... the Bible doesn't go into this level of detail. For me personally, I believe in creation, but I also believe in some aspects of evolution e.g. the constant battle between predators and prey where the weak and slow die and the strong and fast survive... this results in a survival of the fittest.

Except that God does go into detail to state that there was evening, there was morning the first day.
This punctuates the actual day.

The verse you quoted was not to explain away six literal days.. It was to explain to the audience of that scripture at that time that God lives outside time and is not effected by it.
 
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Cis.jd

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Since there is evidence of Christ I will believe in the miracle of the six literal days due to the simple fact that Christ was the one who created the universe in those six days.. Just as He walked on water, fed the 5000, turned water to wine and all the other miracles that you state that you believe based on the evidence of Him.

But then in doing so, you are shrinking Christ because now God is subjected to 24 hour day that we go by. A day is like a thousand to the Lord, yet here you are making his concept of time to be just exact to ours. If you are out in outer space, there is no such thing as day because there is no morning or evening.. so what more for God who is in heaven and exists before time?

Your views in regards to the 6 days are practically your own, it isn't just evidence that shows it's false but even common sense. It is literalism that makes God's word look like a lie because it denies the proven truth which God has shown in the universe and limits him to being a small concept that man managed to grasp in a few sentences.
 
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JacksBratt

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But then in doing so, you are shrinking Christ because now God is subjected to 24 hour day that we go by. A day is like a thousand to the Lord, yet here you are making his concept of time to be just exact to ours. If you are out in outer space, there is no such thing as day because there is no morning or evening.. so what more for God who is in heaven and exists before time?

God is not subject to any space time continuum. He created it for us but He exists outside of the confines of it. The day is as long as it is for the simple purpose of the human body and it's limits. God made the "day" and the "year" for our world.

He created the "day" and then....... He placed the lights in the firmament to measure it and mark the time, years and seasons.

Nowhere did I say or indicate that this limits God... God has never been confined to the dimension He created for us or it's physical laws.

Your views in regards to the 6 days are practically your own, it isn't just evidence that shows it's false but even common sense. It is literalism that makes God's word look like a lie because it denies the proven truth which God has shown in the universe and limits him to being a small concept that man managed to grasp in a few sentences.
That's your opinion and you have every right to it.

My opinion is God is true and every man a liar. Just because someone puts on a lab coat...doesn't make them more knowledgeable than what God says.

God Bless.
 
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Cis.jd

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God is not subject to any space time continuum. He created it for us but He exists outside of the confines of it. The day is as long as it is for the simple purpose of the human body and it's limits. God made the "day" and the "year" for our world.

He created the "day" and then....... He placed the lights in the firmament to measure it and mark the time, years and seasons.

Nowhere did I say or indicate that this limits God... God has never been confined to the dimension He created for us or it's physical laws.

But 6 Day Creationism gives God a limit and makes him subjected to a persons concept of time.
Through out history there are different ways people determined the day. Egyptians had 12 hrs, other like Norway experiences night for only 40 min in June, then you have Alaska in where evening is 67 days long during the winter..Who has the right duration of a day?

No where in the Bible does it say a day is 24 hours, it's science that says that... so how long does this 6 day go: 24 hrs, or is it like the Alaskans which is 1,608 hrs (67 days) after the evening?

My opinion is God is true and every man a liar. Just because someone puts on a lab coat...doesn't make them more knowledgeable than what God says.

God Bless.

The biggest liars in history where always those who claimed their words come from God and scripture, not from science.
 
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