Are you dead to the Law?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Well, the Law is only good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). I know a little, but I am not an expert. For my field of study is not the Torah because you cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). Gentile Christians are told that they do not have to keep the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). We are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law (the Law of Moses), you have fallen from grace. So then what purpose or point is there in knowing the Law if it is useless or not beneficial to a believer?​

Note: This was during the time of the Old Covenant before Christ was crucified and began the New Covenant. Anyways, my guess is that you simply cannot read and believe this passage above. You have to alter it to fit what you personally believe.

You seem to like to quote that Paul was against the law. Yet he kept it and even showed it by making a sacrifice and vow. Now IF he was as you say, that would have been the PERFECT time to say no, yet he did not. Acts 21:20-27...Acts 25:7-8. This was 25 years after the crucifixion and resurrection.
 
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Jay Sea

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Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed and it does not say that God's laws are erased. Just read your New Testament more closely, my friend. For if you do, you will find that it is full of lots of laws or commands. Here are a list of...

New Testament Commands That Are Called A Command:

  1. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.” (Mark 12:29-30 gives us the full complete description of the 1st commandment in the Bible).

  2. “And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:31).

  3. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23).

  4. “Repent” (i.e. Seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, “God… now commands all men everywhere to repent”).

  5. A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if you have love one to another (John 13:34-35).

  6. “Watch” (“For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. Watch you therefore: for you know not when the Master of the house comes,...” - See: Mark 13:33-37).

  7. “Honor your father and mother” (God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother - Matthew 15:4, Matthew 19:19, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20) (Ephesians 6:2-3 says “Honour your father and mother (which is the first commandment attached with a promise).

  8. Tell the women to keep silent in the churches. For it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law; And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for women to speak in the church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

  9. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks disorderly (2 Thessalonians 3:6).

  10. Keep the following commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ: Fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life, whereby you are called, and have professed a good profession before many witnesses (1 Timothy 6:12-14).

  11. Keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) (Note: The young rich ruler asked, which ones (i.e. which commands should he keep); Jesus replied, “Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:18-19) (Jesus also said as a part of these commands, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,” - Matthew 19:21).
I did not say that the law was done away with. Jeshua criticised the application of Law without love and compassion.
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You seem to like to quote that Paul was against the law. Yet he kept it and even showed it by making a sacrifice and vow. Now IF he was as you say, that would have been the PERFECT time to say no, yet he did not. Acts 21:20-27...Acts 25:7-8. This was 25 years after the crucifixion and resurrection.

I am very familiar with Acts of the Apostles 21. In Acts of the Apostles 21:20-27, Paul made a mistake. He was warned not to go to Jerusalem by the Spirit through certain disciples.

“And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.” (Acts of the Apostles 21:4).

Later we read about Paul admitting to his mistake in the fact that he wished everyone was like what he had become... except for his chains.

For Paul said, “I wish to God that not only you but all who hear me this day may become what I am, except for these chains.” (Acts of the Apostles 26:29).​

So he should not have gone to Jerusalem. For he was pressured by the elders to go through with an OT ritual rite that included an animal sacrifice. Fortunately, God stopped Paul through going through with that ritual rite involving the sacrifice because he was arrested before he could go through with the rite.

As for Acts of the Apostles 25:7-8:

The Law of Moses was for Israel. Remember when Paul rebuked Peter for trying to get the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? In fact, during the majority of Paul's ministry, he taught Gentiles. The Gentiles were not obligated to keep the Law of Moses according to the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”​

Paul did not directly violate any Law of Moses in the sight of any Jew. This does not mean he endorsed that people were to keep the Law of Moses.

Remember, Paul also said,

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;” (1 Corinthians 9:20).

Yet, we know that Paul also taught that we are not under the Law.

For Paul also said,
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” (Romans 6:14).

I imagine if Paul pushed this kind of letter (written to the Romans) upon the Jews, they would see him in violation of the Torah. For the Jews believed they were under the Law.

For Paul was arrested for this charge claimed:

“Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.” (Acts of the Apostles 21:28).

We also have to understand that Jesus was the king of the Jews. So Jesus is the One who lays down the law of how things really are for the Jews. Seeing the Law was fulfilled and New Covenant Law was implimented at Christ's death, Paul was technically not in any violation of any genuine Jewish laws according to Jesus (the King of the Jews). For if the Jewish laws truly had ended and they were fulfilled by our following Jesus and what He says, then Paul is not technically disobeying any Jewish laws (even if the Jews thought he disobeyed God's laws). The Jews failing to realize that the Old was not fulfilled does not undo the reality of the truth of things really are. For there is a difference between what the Jews say, and what the Lord Jesus (the King of the Jews) says.
 
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I did not say that the law was done away with. Jeshua criticised the application of Law without love and compassion.
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Jay Sea

Which Law do you believe applies today?
Do you believe we have to keep both the 613 laws of Moses, AND the commands that come from Jesus, and His followers?

I believe we are to keep the Laws or commands that come from Jesus and His followers in the pages of the New Testament. I believe that while certain Laws from the 613 Laws of Moses have been repeated in the New Testament commands, the 613 is not a binding contract as a whole because we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. So we don't look to the Law of Moses primarily to obey God. The Law of Moses was for Israel primarily and not the church. The Law is only good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8).

Now, I do agree with you that Jesus critcized the Jews for their lack of love in their law keeping. Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 makes it clear that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law, like love, justice, faith, and mercy.

But make no mistake: After we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8) (Titus 3:5), the Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

In addition, sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

This is important to undertand because the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

Believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy or salvation (See: Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).
 
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Jay Sea

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The Law that furthers the Kingdom of G-d Now that spreads love and compassion and forgiveness to everyone to include them in fellowship with us and their G-d, who loves them without exception, as we should. The Law of the Heart and Spirit, even if it leads to our crucifixion.
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The Law that furthers the Kingdom of G-d Now that spreads love and compassion and forgiveness to everyone to include them in fellowship with us and their G-d, who loves them without exception, as we should. The Law of the Heart and Spirit, even if it leads to our crucifixion.
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Jay Sea

So is this Law you talk of different from the laws or commands found in the Bible?
Is it exclusively based on what you feel alone without God's Word?
Even tax collectors can love their own (Matthew 5:46), but that is not the same kind of love that God requires according to His Word. Which laws do you seek to obey? Do you seek to obey the Old Testament Laws, or the New Testament Laws, or both? Or do you just kind of create your own set of laws based on how you feel out of your own heart? Do you just follow the two greatest commandments only? What you said was not clear, my friend. Please clarify.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I am very familiar with Acts of the Apostles 21. In Acts of the Apostles 21:20-27, Paul made a mistake. He was warned not to go to Jerusalem by the Spirit through certain disciples.

“And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.” (Acts of the Apostles 21:4).

Later we read about Paul admitting to his mistake in the fact that he wished everyone was like what he had become... except for his chains.

For Paul said, “I wish to God that not only you but all who hear me this day may become what I am, except for these chains.” (Acts of the Apostles 26:29).​

So he should not have gone to Jerusalem. For he was pressured by the elders to go through with an OT ritual rite that included an animal sacrifice. Fortunately, God stopped Paul through going through with that ritual rite involving the sacrifice because he was arrested before he could go through with the rite.

As for Acts of the Apostles 25:7-8:

The Law of Moses was for Israel. Remember when Paul rebuked Peter for trying to get the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? In fact, during the majority of Paul's ministry, he taught Gentiles. The Gentiles were not obligated to keep the Law of Moses according to the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”​

Paul did not directly violate any Law of Moses in the sight of any Jew. This does not mean he endorsed that people were to keep the Law of Moses.

Remember, Paul also said,

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;” (1 Corinthians 9:20).

Yet, we know that Paul also taught that we are not under the Law.

For Paul also said,
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” (Romans 6:14).

I imagine if Paul pushed this kind of letter (written to the Romans) upon the Jews, they would see him in violation of the Torah. For the Jews believed they were under the Law.

For Paul was arrested for this charge claimed:

“Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.” (Acts of the Apostles 21:28).
Paul made a mistake? Paul argued in his defense, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I committed any offense." Was he a liar? "King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe. And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?” And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.” He is NOT saying what YOU are saying. He is saying that he wished they all would believe in Yeshua, like himself. He DID take a vow and even paid for 4 others, fulfilling Jewish law at the Temple. Like I said, IF he was like as you said, it would have been the perfect opportunity for him to say no and preach against Torah to all there...but he did not. He obeyed. You are wrong.

I will ask you again, if there is no law, what need is there for grace? Sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death. When he says we are "not under the law" he is speaking about its curse. Yeshua became a curse for us. The curse was nailed to the cross. He took the penalty away. What is your definition of understand of the New Covenant? Do you understand what the bread and wine were?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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But make no mistake: After we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8) (Titus 3:5), the Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

In addition, sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

This is important to undertand because the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

Believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy or salvation (See: Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).

We agree here :)
 
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Jay Sea

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So is this Law you talk of different from the laws or commands found in the Bible?
Is it exclusively based on what you feel alone without God's Word?
Even tax collectors can love their own (Matthew 5:46), but that is not the same kind of love that God requires according to His Word. Which laws do you seek to obey? Do you seek to obey the Old Testament Laws, or the New Testament Laws, or both? Or do you just kind of create your own set of laws based on how you feel out of your own heart? Do you just follow the two greatest commandments only? What you said was not clear, my friend. Please clarify.
The Law of G-d that Yeshua lived and that I hope in the struggles of life learn to be His disciple. The law that is of the Holy Spirit only partly expressed in the words on paper as paper cannot express what G-d reveals or inspires on Man's Spirit in prayer and reflection on His words. G-d continues to reveal himself to mankind. He will never abandon Mankind even in our imperfections
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Jay Sea
 
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Paul made a mistake? Paul argued in his defense, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I committed any offense." Was he a liar? "King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe. And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?” And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.” He is NOT saying what YOU are saying. He is saying that he wished they all would believe in Yeshua, like himself. He DID take a vow and even paid for 4 others, fulfilling Jewish law at the Temple. Like I said, IF he was like as you said, it would have been the perfect opportunity for him to say no and preach against Torah to all there...but he did not. He obeyed. You are wrong.

I will ask you again, if there is no law, what need is there for grace? Sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death. When he says we are "not under the law" he is speaking about its curse. Yeshua became a curse for us. The curse was nailed to the cross. He took the penalty away. What is your definition of understand of the New Covenant? Do you understand what the bread and wine were?

You cannot ignore other Scriptures in favor of having
an isolated island interpretation on Acts of the Apostles 25:7-8.
Everything in Scripture has to breath in harmony.

You have to consider the other things that Paul said about the Old Law.

#1. Galatians 5:4
“Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

#2. Romans 6:14
“for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

#3. Galatians 3:12
“the law is not of faith:”
(Note: Jesus appears to disagree with Paul in the fact that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy - See: Luke 11:42, and Matthew 23:23; So this means that the Old Law has ended and a new faith has begun. For even Moses acted in faith in Hebrews 11).

#4. Romans 7:4
“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

#5. Romans 7:6
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

#6. Romans 13:8
“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.”
Big point here. The way we can fulfill or keep the Old Law is by simply loving one another. This is the New Covenant way.

#7. 1 Corinthians 9:20
“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;” Okay. So if the Law is still applicable, then why is Paul trying to gain those who believe they are under the Law?

#8. 1 Corinthians 9:21
“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” Here Paul emphasizes what kind of Law applies and says we are under the Law of Christ.

#9. 1 Timothy 1:8
“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;” This verse suggests that not all of the law is lawful to use because Paul says the law is good if a man uses it lawfully. Paul then follows up with mentioning the breaking of the Moral Laws after this verse.

#10. Hebrews 7:12
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
Here we learn in this verse that the law is changed. This means we do not have to keep the whole of the Old Law because it is changed or different now.

#11. Romans 8:2
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” There are two laws mentioned in this verse. The “Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus” is a New Covenant Law and keeping it makes us to be set free from another kind of Law called the “Law of sin and death.” The Law of sin and death is obviously the Law of Moses. For what other kind of Law brought death? The Law of Moses brought physical death in the form of capital punishment on the breaking of certain laws.​

So as we can clearly see, Paul was not really in favor of Christians being under the Old Law as a whole or contract. So when we read Acts of the Apostles 25:8, we must look at it from this understanding of these other verses.

“While he answered for himself,
Neither against the law of the Jews,
neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar,
have I offended any thing at all.” (Acts of the Apostles 25:8).​

Notice how Paul says that he did not offend the Law of the Jews.

Clearly we know that Paul's writings offend the Law of the Jews.
For even Paul rejecting Christians (Ebionites) know full well that Paul talked about the Old Law not being the same anymore. We are to love now as a way of fulfilling the Old Law (Romans 13:8).

This can mean one or two things by what Paul said in regards to how he did not offend the Law of the Jews in Acts of the Apostles 25:8.

Possibility #1. - Paul was referring to the King of the Jews laws in how they have changed. For Paul says we are under the Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

Possibility #2. - Paul was not referring to his offensive writings involving the Law of the Jews, but he was referring to his actual physical conduct in the presence of the Jews. For Paul said he became a Jew so as to win the Jews. Also, Paul was not the sole author of his own writings but his writings are inspired Scripture that are inspired by the Holy Spirit (God). So it was not technically Paul that was offending anyone directly. God inspired Paul to write what he did. So if there was any offense actually made involving the laws of the Jews by the writings that came from Paul, it would technically be from God and not Paul. For all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16).
 
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The Law of G-d that Yeshua lived and that I hope in the struggles of life learn to be His disciple. The law that is of the Holy Spirit only partly expressed in the words on paper as paper cannot express what G-d reveals or inspires on Man's Spirit in prayer and reflection on His words. G-d continues to reveal himself to mankind. He will never abandon Mankind even in our imperfections
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Jay Sea

Well, that did not answer my questions from before. I was asking you what set of Laws you followed? You did not really give me a clear cut answer in regards to my questions.

I asked if you believe should we follow the Old Covenant Laws AND the New Covenant Laws?
I asked if you believe you should obey some set of laws out of your own heart?

You said that paper only partly express what God reveals and the rest is a revelation by God's Spirit. Well, I am not in disagreement that we need to have the Anointing to understand God's word. But I would not say that it is one half the Bible, and the other half some entirely new message. The words remain the same on the page of our Bible. Everything we learn and study would still be in context or in line with other parts of the Bible to what God can reveal to us. But our sole authority is the Holy Bible. If we receive a vision or impression that runs contrary to the Word of God (the Bible), then it is not of God. God will always uplift His Holy Word. I do not see it as 50/50 because there are no entirely new words given to us by the Spirit unless we are being persecuted for Christ during the end times when they will arrest Christians. Today, the Spirit is merely going to enhance what the Bible already says. At least that is my experience anyways. Yes, God can talk to us using every day life situations, but this would be an uplifting of His Word (the Bible). I do not believe God talks apart from His Holy Word that He has given to us.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You cannot ignore other Scriptures in favor of having
an isolated island interpretation on Acts of the Apostles 25:7-8.
Everything in Scripture has to breath in harmony.

You have to consider the other things that Paul said about the Old Law.

#1. Galatians 5:4
“Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

#2. Romans 6:14
“for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

#3. Galatians 3:12
“the law is not of faith:”
(Note: Jesus appears to disagree with Paul in the fact that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy - See: Luke 11:42, and Matthew 23:23; So this means that the Old Law has ended and a new faith has begun. For even Moses acted in faith in Hebrews 11).

#4. Romans 7:4
“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

#5. Romans 7:6
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

#6. Romans 13:8
“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.”
Big point here. The way we can fulfill or keep the Old Law is by simply loving one another. This is the New Covenant way.

#7. 1 Corinthians 9:20
“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;” Okay. So if the Law is still applicable, then why is Paul trying to gain those who believe they are under the Law?

#8. 1 Corinthians 9:21
“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” Here Paul emphasizes what kind of Law applies and says we are under the Law of Christ.

#9. 1 Timothy 1:8
“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;” This verse suggests that not all of the law is lawful to use because Paul says the law is good if a man uses it lawfully. Paul then follows up with mentioning the breaking of the Moral Laws after this verse.

#10. Hebrews 7:12
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
Here we learn in this verse that the law is changed. This means we do not have to keep the whole of the Old Law because it is changed or different now.

#11. Romans 8:2
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” There are two laws mentioned in this verse. The “Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus” is a New Covenant Law and keeping it makes us to be set free from another kind of Law called the “Law of sin and death.” The Law of sin and death is obviously the Law of Moses. For what other kind of Law brought death? The Law of Moses brought physical death in the form of capital punishment on the breaking of certain laws.​

Well no, that is what YOU are doing. Acts 25:7-8 says what it says and that means you are wrong. You seem to think that since there was no Temple or priesthood that the entire law is erased. Sure the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law...that is what happened in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple! You can't keep laws that you can't keep! Loving God and your neighbor is from the Torah. This is not new. Yeshua and Paul uphold this in the NT. But again, stealing is not loving your neighbor. You keep thinking the law and the curse of the law are the same things. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. This is the curse of the law...death. Yeshua became a curse for us on the cross. If there is no law, then no sin and then there is no need for grace.

I will ask you again, if there is no law, what need is there for grace? Sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death. When he says we are "not under the law" he is speaking about its curse. Yeshua became a curse for us. The curse was nailed to the cross. He took the penalty away. What is your definition of understanding of the New Covenant? Do you understand what the bread and wine were?
Shavua tov
 
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klutedavid

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Hello,

Yes, I would agree that we are by no means to continue to sin that grace may about and everything else in Romans 6 is in favor of obedience to God's law and against the law of sin, so the whole of Romans 6 is incompatible with interpreting Romans 7:4 as referring to God's law, especially because sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Likewise, there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our love for God without obedience to His command. Whenever we testify about God's nature we are expressing our love for who He is. The New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that we will have justification for not obeying it, so Romans 7:4 should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's law.

God's nature is truth, God's law is truth because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature (Psalms 119:142), and Jesus is the truth because he is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so there is no such thing as seeking truth in the Lord Jesus Christ apart from follow his example of obedience to God's law. God has straightforwardly made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8), so again there is no such thing as seeking knowledge of God's will apart from His instructions for how to do His will. Someone having a heard heart is always associated with their refusal to submit to God's will.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God, so there is nothing about following the Spirit that involves not having to look at the law. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.
What you said is not accurate.
In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law
Where in the law of Moses are factions and divisions defined as law?

Where in the law of Moses are 'outbursts of anger' defined in the law?
 
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klutedavid

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Well no, that is what YOU are doing. Acts 25:7-8 says what it says and that means you are wrong. You seem to think that since there was no Temple or priesthood that the entire law is erased. Sure the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law...that is what happened in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple! You can't keep laws that you can't keep! Loving God and your neighbor is from the Torah. This is not new. Yeshua and Paul uphold this in the NT. But again, stealing is not loving your neighbor. You keep thinking the law and the curse of the law are the same things. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. This is the curse of the law...death. Yeshua became a curse for us on the cross. If there is no law, then no sin and then there is no need for grace.

I will ask you again, if there is no law, what need is there for grace? Sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death. When he says we are "not under the law" he is speaking about its curse. Yeshua became a curse for us. The curse was nailed to the cross. He took the penalty away. What is your definition of understanding of the New Covenant? Do you understand what the bread and wine were?
Shavua tov
Paul also says the Jews are not under the condemnation of the law.

Romans 8:1-2
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
 
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Soyeong

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What you said is not accurate.

If you disagree, then please explain why.

Where in the law of Moses are factions and divisions defined as law?

Where in the law of Moses are 'outbursts of anger' defined in the law?

Do you think that Paul was just making those things up and that divisions and factions and outbursts of anger were just fine until Paul spoke against them?
 
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klutedavid

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If you disagree, then please explain why.
Do you think that Paul was just making those things up and that divisions and factions and outbursts of anger were just fine until Paul spoke against them?
You made the following statement.
In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law
Your claim is that 'outbursts of anger' are against God's law. So where in the law is it written that outbursts of anger are prohibited.

The law is very specific concerning behavior that is sinful.

Paul is not so much talking about a specific sin but more about the entire expression of the flesh.

That is why there are deeds of the flesh that are not listed in the law.

Such as, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.

Your legal paradigm cannot cover the deeds of the flesh, not even close.
 
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Soyeong

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You made the following statement.
Your claim is that 'outbursts of anger' are against God's law. So where in the law is it written that outbursts of anger are prohibited.

The law is very specific concerning behavior that is sinful.

Paul is not so much talking about a specific sin but more about the entire expression of the flesh.

That is why there are deeds of the flesh that are not listed in the law.

Such as, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.

Your legal paradigm cannot cover the deeds of the flesh, not even close.

There are more ways to what is righteous or sinful than what God's law specifically prescribes our prohibits, but God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature, such as the fruits of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23. For example, God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about God's righteousness, which allow us to abstract a spiritual principle of righteousness that guides us to take actions that are examples of that principle even in situations that are not specifically prescribed by God's law, so things do not need to be specifically mentioned by God's law in order to be against it. We see that God's anger in not characterized as being outbursts, but that it rooted is His justice and love and tempered by His mercy, so that is something taught by God's law even if it were not directly stated, though the command not to hate our brother comes close (Leviticus 19:17). Likewise, the God's law places a strong emphasis on unity. To model our anger after God's anger is part of what it means to love who God is and to love our neighbor, so at the very least, refraining from outbursts and dissensions is covered by part of what it means to obey the greatest two commandments.
 
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SANTOSO

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Dear ones,
Let us consider the title thread : are you dead to the Law ?

Before considered dead to the Law ! Don’t we need to consider about being born ?

Since we heard our Lord have said:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. -John 3:6

Likewise, we heard:
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, BORN OF WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW, -Galatians 4:4
TO REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW, so that we might receive adoption as sons. -Galatians 4:5

Does that mean everyone born of woman, born under the law ? Yes

Do they consider that law of Moses as the Law of the Jews? Yes.

Do everyone then born of the Law of Moses, that the law spoke to people through Levitical priesthood? No.

So then do our Lord only redeem those under the law under Levitical priesthood or the Law of Moses ? No. Why?

Didn’t apostle Paul write Galatians 4:4-5, this letter to the Galatians who were Gentiles? Yes.

So apostle Paul spoke of ANOTHER LAW that everyone were born of woman was born under this law, that the Lord REDEEM? Yes.

What is this law ?

This, we heard:
Therefore, just as SIN CAME INTO the world through one man, and DEATH THROUGH SIN, and so DEATH SPREAD TO all men because all sinned' -Romans 5:12

So we can consider that just as sin came into the world through one man, and everyone born of woman, born under THE LAW OF SIN, and death through sin, and so we consider those who sinned under THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

Now let us consider about those who were born NOT under the law of Moses ? This is what we have heard :

For all who have sinned without the law will also PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. -Romans 2:12

So all who have sinned WITHOUT THE LAW OF MOSES will also PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW OF MOSES.

Since we know that the Lord not only redeem those under under Levitical priesthood or the Law of Moses ?

This is what we have heard:
For when there is A CHANGE in the PRIESTHOOD, there is NECESSARILY A CHANGE IN THE LAW as well. -Hebrews 7:12

What is the change ?
For it is witnessed of Him ( Christ), "You are a PRIEST FOREVER, after the order of Melchizedek." -Hebrews 7:17

So there is a change from Levitical priesthood named after the order of Aaron TO Christ as our priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Why there is a change ?
Now IF PERFECTION had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11

Since Christ is our priest forever under His priesthood, Gentiles and Jews who believed in Him enable to receive the NEW LAW.

And this is what we heard spoken of the NEW LAW.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -Romans 8:1
For THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. -Romans 8:2

When we are union in Christ, the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death.

This is what we have heard:
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. -Romans 6:5

So what we consider:

So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. -Romans 6:11

So we ALSO must consider ourselves DEAD TO THE LAW OF SIN, and alive to God IN CHRIST JESUS.

To God be the glory.
Amen
 
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SANTOSO

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Dear ones,
When considering the law ? We should also consider the parable of the dragnet.
The Parable of the Dragnet

Matthew 13:47-50
This is what we have heard:
47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The parable of the Dragnet seems quite obvious as if the Lord explains the parable together with the meaning.

Since it is still parable, we need to seek to hear and understand and perceive.

This is what we have heard:
And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you. -Mark 4:24

So, what we can understand about this parable and more.

Since the Lord says,” "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. “

We can understand that this parable is related with others that He has spoken.

We can consider the one who has thrown the net into the sea was Son of Man.

What we can understand about the sea ? This is what we have heard:

You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. -Habakkuk 1:14

So, we can perceive that the net that was thrown into the sea was the net was thrown into mankind whom the Lord make like the fish of the sea.

Also, we heard in the parable :
When it was full,.... So it will be at the end of the age.

So this is what we have heard:
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. -Galatians 4:4-7

From here, we can understand those who were born, were under the law.

This is what we have heard what the law says to those who are under the law :

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. -Romans 3:19

Thus, we can determine that the net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind was the law.

Did the good fish and bad fish born under the law ? Yes

This is what we have heard:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. -John 3:6

Does this mean the good fish and bad fish born under different law ?
Yes


This is what we have heard:
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. -Romans 3:27
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. -Romans 3:28

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, -Romans 3:29

since God is one'who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. -Romans 3:30

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. -Romans 3:31

Here we can understand that the good fish are under the law of faith, while the bad fish are under the law of works.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. -Galatians 3:21

But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. -Galatians 3:22

As the net imprison the fish, so the those under law of works or the law of works of sin or law of sin were imprisoned as slaves of sin but those under law of faith were imprisoned as slaves of righteousness by faith in Christ Jesus.

That is why we heard this :
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -Romans 8:1

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. -Romans 8:2

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh ( that is law of sin and death ), could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin (offering), He condemned sin in the flesh, -Romans 8:3

in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. -Romans 8:4

Here, we can understand that the good fish or the righteous saints who are not condemned in union with Christ Jesus by faith.

But the bad fish or the evildoers are condemned by being thrown into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For they did not believe
the promise given by faith in Christ Jesus.

For the righteous requirement of the law of Spirit of life are fulfilled in those who walk according to the Holy Spirit.

In other words, the good fish swim according to the Spirit while the bad fish swim according to the flesh.

Let us heed this admonition:

For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, -Hebrews 2:2

how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, -Hebrews 2:3

while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will. -Hebrews 2:4

Paraphrase Matthew 13:47 ;
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a law that was given to mankind and gathered people of every kind.

Let the Word of Messiah in all its richness dwell in us.
Let overflowing thanksgiving be given through our Lord Jesus Christ to God,

Glorifying His wonderful name.
 
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