Passion Timeline

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
* * * Remember God separated Darkness from Light. And that IS PRECISELY how the Jews measured when a Day was and how long it was - by using a SUNDIAL. You see when a SHADOW is cast upon the earth by the Sun, that is the DAY claiming the land. An EVENING starts when the Sun begins to drop below the horizon such that it no longer cast a shadow upon the land. * * *

I can't seem to find the word "sundial" anywhere is scripture.

ViaCrucis · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

No way to hold fast what your preaching about when a Day starts.
Let's look at what God showed as a Period of a Day:

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Notice there is evening and morning the first day. Evening means to Grow in Darkness. THINK ABOUT THAT.
How can you grow in Darkness from Darkness? (remember darkness was what is found before God starts His creative account in Genesis). Evening is a very defined period of time.

Remember God separated Darkness from Light. And that IS PRECISELY how the Jews measured when a Day was and how long it was - by using a SUNDIAL. You see when a SHADOW is cast upon the earth by the Sun, that is the DAY claiming the land. An EVENING starts when the Sun begins to drop below the horizon such that it no longer cast a shadow upon the land.

A PERIOD of a DAY CONTINUES until a New Day claims that right by casting its shadow upon the land.

It is precisely because in Genesis, where God created the light, then divided the light from the darkness (thus the darkness preceding the light) that the Jews have understood that the day begins with the onset of darkness. Darkness precedes light, and thus "it was evening and morning". Rather than "it was morning and evening".

You are talking about how to measure the time of day based on the sun's relative position in the day-time sky. Which is how the day is measured. But it's not how days begin or end in the Jewish view.

I have already provided the Jewish understanding of these things.

But, here is more:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526873/jewish/The-Jewish-Day.htm

-CryptoLutheran

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

Der Alte said:
I can't seem to find the word "sundial" anywhere is scripture.

what about "timex" or "rollex" Let me know when you can't find those, I may have more... lol

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

Der Alte said:
I can't seem to find the word "sundial" anywhere is scripture.

Is this close enough:

Isa_38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
It is precisely because in Genesis, where God created the light, then divided the light from the darkness (thus the darkness preceding the light) that the Jews have understood that the day begins with the onset of darkness. Darkness precedes light, and thus "it was evening and morning". Rather than "it was morning and evening".

You are talking about how to measure the time of day based on the sun's relative position in the day-time sky. Which is how the day is measured. But it's not how days begin or end in the Jewish view.

I have already provided the Jewish understanding of these things.

But, here is more:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526873/jewish/The-Jewish-Day.htm

-CryptoLutheran

Again, that doesn't work. Evening means the Period when it is "Growing in Darkness".

So for evening to be first means that LIGHT had to be before it since it has to have something to Grow in darkness from.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
Is this close enough:
Isa_38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Don't think it was an actual "sundial" The word is translated steps 11x, stairs 5x, degrees 19x, stories, up, dial and come 1x each.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
Again, that doesn't work. Evening means the Period when it is "Growing in Darkness".
So for evening to be first means that LIGHT had to be before it since it has to have something to Grow in darkness from.

Where did you get the definition "growing in darkness?" That ain't what Mr. Merriam and Mr. Webster says.

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

Der Alte said:
Don't think it was an actual "sundial" The word is translated steps 11x, stairs 5x, degrees 19x, stories, up, dial and come 1x each.

Why couldn't that be a sundial exactly? A sun dial is the concept of using shadows of the sun to mark time.

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

Der Alte said:
Where did you get the definition "growing in darkness?" That ain't what Mr. Merriam and Mr. Webster says.

It's strong H6153 which means "dusk" but that is actually a period known as dusk, and the period is defined from its original verb H6150 - which means to grow in darkness.

So the meaning of Evening is the Period in which it is growing in darkness.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
Why couldn't that be a sundial exactly? A sun dial is the concept of using shadows of the sun to mark time.

Such a stickler for correct meaning when it serves your purpose.
"An instrument showing the time by the shadow of a pointer cast by the sun on to a plate marked with the hours of the day."
Dials are round corn bread are square.

klutedavid · Apr 15, 2021

Der Alte said:
You mention "Sabbath days," there was only one Sabbath in passion week, the weekly Sabbath.
Some folks try to make the first day of Unleavened bread a Sabbath. It is not a Sabbath, both 1st and 7th day of unleavened bread are Holy Convocations, all servile work is prohibited but preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted.

Exodus 12:15-16
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
The 1st and 7th day of ULB are never called Sabbaths in either testament.
All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on "parasceue," which means preparation and at the time of Jesus to the present "parasceue" is the Greek name of the day we call "Friday."
The Sabbath requires a preparation days since all work including preparing and cooking food is prohibited. Because preparing and cooking food is permitted on 1st/7th ULB so they do not have or require a preparation day.
We know from Joh 19:14 that the only "parasceue"/preparation day in passion week was the day before the weekly Sabbath and Passover.

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
...
John 19:16-18
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

A very good post. One that the SDA will ignore of course.

klutedavid · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it states or shows that the Sabbath is based on a Solar Calendar.

The Old Testament Sabbath days were counted from the day of the new moon. Israel at the time of the Exodus was using a lunar calendar.

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

The Jews knew the Day was dictated by it casting a shadow:

Jer 6:4 Prepare yourselves for war against her; rise up, and let us go up against her at noon. Woe to us! for the day has gone down, for the shadows of the day fail.

They knew that when the shadows were gone so was the day part and that evening had come. It was by the SHADOWs they knew the Day.

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

klutedavid said:
The Old Testament Sabbath days were counted from the day of the new moon. Israel at the time of the Exodus was using a lunar calendar.

Not just then but also during the time of Christ.

klutedavid · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
That is incorrect. Their calendar in the Bible is a Lunar Calendar so it would be like this:

Lunar month 1 (day 29 - Sabbath)
Lunar Month 2 (day 8 - Sabbath)

Every Lunar month has 29 days.

It goes New moon (then first week, 2nd week, 3rd week, 4th week.)
So the second day of a month is the 1st day of the lunar week.

You are correct on that.

The Lunar Sabbath and the SDA

Dr. Jacques Doukhan, Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament Exegesis at Andrews University, was the featured speaker at Worker's Meeting for the Upper Columbia Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in August of 2007. The conference was considering establishing a church plant in Spokane, Washington, to reach Messianic Jews. Doukhan was invited to speak to the Conference ministers about the annual feasts.

According to three people in attendance, a number of pastors voiced questions about the Biblical calendar. One of the pastors stated that at that time, Doukhan acknowledged that when the Sabbath is calculated by the Biblical calendar, it will fall differently.

If the Sabbath on the Biblical calendar does not fall on Saturday, why does the Seventh-day Adventist Church still teach that Saturday is the Sabbath? Why has the leadership not informed the church members? How long has the leadership known that Saturday is not the true Bible Sabbath? (4angelspublications.com/articles/Lunar_Sabbath_SDA_Church.php)

klutedavid · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
Not just then but also during the time of Christ.

The Jews switched calendars but I am not sure when they did that. Although I would agree that in the first century, the Jews were still following the lunar calendar.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
It's strong H6153 which means "dusk" but that is actually a period known as dusk, and the period is defined from its original verb H6150 - which means to grow in darkness.
So the meaning of Evening is the Period in which it is growing in darkness.

Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.
Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon

עֶ֫רֶב S6152, 6153, 6154 TWOT1685a, 1688a, 1689a GK6847131 n.[m. 1 S 20:5 del. הַשְּׁלִישִׁית v. We Dr al.] (sun)set, evening;—abs. ע׳ 2 K 2:16 +, עָ֑רֶב Ex 12:18 +; cstr. עֶרֶב Pr 7:9; du. עַרְבַּיִם Ex 30:8 + 4 times, -בָּ֑יִם 12:6 + 5 times (all P);— 1. a. evening, orig. sunset, and hence perhaps לְעֵת ע׳ at the time of sunset †Gn 8:11 (J), 24:11 (J; || לְעֵת צֵאת הַשֹּׁאֲבֹת), 2 S 11:2 Is 17:14 and (of the day of י׳) Zc 14:7, עֵת הָע׳ Jos 8:29 (JE)†; usually ע׳ alone = time of sunset, evening: בָּע׳ in the evening Gn 19:1 (J), 29:23 (E), Ex 12:18 (P), Dt 16:6 ( + כְּבוֹא שֶׁמֶשׁ), 1 K 22:35 (cf. || 2 Ch 18:34 where + לְעֵת בּוֹא הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ) + 20 times + בָּע(־)בָּע׳ 2 Ch 13:11() = every evening; לָע׳ at evening only late: †1 Ch 16:40; 23:30; 2 Ch 2:3; Ezr 3:3 ψ 59:7, 1R; 90:6; Ec 11:6†; לִפְנוֹת ע׳ at the turn of evening †Gn 24:63 (J), Dt 23:12; ע׳ as adv. acc. Ex 16:6 (P), ψ 55:18; as marking duration of impurity, in phr. עַד־הָע׳ Lv 11:24 + 30 times P + Lv 22:6 (H); of Day of Atonement מֵע׳ עַד־ע׳ 23:32 (P). b. du. in phrase (only P) בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם between the two evenings, i.e. prob. between sunset and dark (v. Thes [various views fully given]; otherwise Di Ex 12:6; on form as poss. only expanded pl. v. Ges 88 c), †Ex 12:6; 16:12; 29:39, 41; 30:8; Lv 23:5; Nu 9:3, 5, 11; 28:4, 8†. c. other phrases are: צִלְלֵי ע׳ Je 6:4 (dist. from צָהֳרָ֑יִם and לָ֑יְלָה v 5), מִנְחַת (הָ)ע׳ †2 K 16:15; Ezr 9:4, 5 ψ 141:2 Dn 9:21†; זְאֵבֵי ע׳ v. 1. זְאֵב; for all combin. with בֹּקֶר morning, v. ב׳ 1 d, e. 2. (late poet.) = night, עָ֑רֶב Jb 7:4; cf. בְּנֶשֶׁף בְּעֶרֶב יוֹם Pr 7:9 (|| בְּאִישׁוֹן לַיְלָה וַאֲפֵלָה).
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (pp. 787–788). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

cfposter · Apr 15, 2021

klutedavid said:
The Jews switched calendars but I am not sure when they did that. Although I would agree that in the first century, the Jews were still following the lunar calendar.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

Yes, this discussion is not about judging but getting record of events straight.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

klutedavid said:
A very good post. One that the SDA will ignore of course.

Alas, you are correct. Both my parents were hospitalized when I was 14 and I was fostered with a SDA family. One Sabbath their 18 yo son and I drove some girls home from church. He stopped by his house to make some kind of minor repair on his car. His parents came home and the father went ballistic because he was "working" on the Sabbath.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2021

cfposter said:
The Jews knew the Day was dictated by it casting a shadow:
Jer 6:4 Prepare yourselves for war against her; rise up, and let us go up against her at noon. Woe to us! for the day has gone down, for the shadows of the day fail.
They knew that when the shadows were gone so was the day part and that evening had come. It was by the SHADOWs they knew the Day.

Just a moment ago I looked out my window and I still saw shadows. Earlier I had set a timer so I wouldn't miss sunset.

Passion Timeline

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