An Adventist view of the Sabbath Commandment - and why it is applicable to all mankind

Daniel Marsh · Apr 14, 2021

Hebrews 8:6-12
Easy-to-Read Version
6 But the work that has been given to Jesus is much greater than the work that was given to those priests. In the same way, the new agreement that Jesus brought from God to his people is much greater than the old one. And the new agreement is based on better promises.

7 If there was nothing wrong with the first agreement, then there would be no need for a second agreement. 8 But God found something wrong with the people. He said,

“The time is coming, says the Lord,
when I will give a new agreement
to the people of Israel and to the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the agreement
that I gave to their fathers.
That is the agreement I gave when I took them by the hand
and led them out of Egypt.
They did not continue following the agreement I gave them,
and I turned away from them, says the Lord.
10 This is the new agreement I will give the people of Israel.
I will give this agreement in the future, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds,
and I will write my laws on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 Never again will anyone have to teach their neighbors
or their family to know the Lord.
All people—the greatest and the least important—will know me.
12 And I will forgive the wrongs they have done,
and I will not remember their sins.”

Again, context speaks of Israel and Judah.

BobRyan · Apr 14, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
In context, it speaks of “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.”

Heb 8:6-12 it is STILL stated as Future in Heb 8. Verbatim quote of OT Jer 31:31-34 in NT -- no change.

The same NT promise that is stated as "FUTURE" for us in NT Heb 8 -- but is in fact present - - is the same one Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) in the OT.

There has never been any other Gospel -- it is the one that brings Moses and Elijah to stand with Christ in Matt 17 - before the cross.

BobRyan · Apr 14, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Hebrews 8:6-12

Again, context speaks of Israel and Judah.

True. the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 is "for Israel and Judah" - the people of God.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

1 Pet 2
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by people, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture:

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 14, 2021

BobRyan said:
Heb 8:6-12 it is STILL stated as Future in Heb 8. Verbatim quote of OT Jer 31:31-34 in NT -- no change.

The same NT promise that is stated as "FUTURE" for us in NT Heb 8 -- but is in fact present - - is the same one Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) in the OT.

There has never been any other Gospel -- it is the one that brings Moses and Elijah to stand with Christ in Matt 17 - before the cross.

It is well know that the book of hebrews was written to Jewish Christians. Not Gentiles. So, I would expect it to speak in their thinking.

Hebrews 8
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus Our High Priest
8 Here is the point of what we are saying: We have a high priest like that, who sits on the right side[a] of God’s throne in heaven. 2 Our high priest serves in the Most Holy Place. He serves in the true place of worship[c] that was made by God, not by anyone here on earth.

3 Every high priest has the work of offering gifts and sacrifices to God. So our high priest must also offer something to God. 4 If our high priest were now living on earth, he would not be a priest. I say this because there are already priests here who follow the law by offering gifts to God. 5 The work that these priests do is really only a copy and a shadow of what is in heaven. That is why God warned Moses when he was ready to build the Holy Tent: “Be sure to make everything exactly like the pattern I showed you on the mountain.”[d] 6 But the work that has been given to Jesus is much greater than the work that was given to those priests. In the same way, the new agreement that Jesus brought from God to his people is much greater than the old one. And the new agreement is based on better promises.

7 If there was nothing wrong with the first agreement, then there would be no need for a second agreement. 8 But God found something wrong with the people. He said,

“The time is coming, says the Lord,
when I will give a new agreement
to the people of Israel and to the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the agreement
that I gave to their fathers.
That is the agreement I gave when I took them by the hand
and led them out of Egypt.
They did not continue following the agreement I gave them,
and I turned away from them, says the Lord.
10 This is the new agreement I will give the people of Israel.
I will give this agreement in the future, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds,
and I will write my laws on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 Never again will anyone have to teach their neighbors
or their family to know the Lord.
All people—the greatest and the least important—will know me.
12 And I will forgive the wrongs they have done,
and I will not remember their sins.”

13 God called this a new agreement, so he has made the first agreement old. And anything that is old and useless is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9
Easy-to-Read Version
Worship Under the Old Agreement
9 The first agreement had rules for worship and a place for worship here on earth. 2 This place was inside a tent. The first area in the tent was called the Holy Place. In the Holy Place were the lamp and the table with the special bread offered to God. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place. 4 In the Most Holy Place was a golden altar for burning incense. And also there was the Box of the Agreement. The Box was covered with gold. Inside this Box was a golden jar of manna and Aaron’s rod—the rod that once grew leaves. Also in the Box were the flat stones with the Ten Commandments of the old agreement on them. 5 Above the Box were the Cherub angels that showed God’s glory. These Cherub angels were over the place of mercy.[a] But we cannot say everything about this now.

6 Everything in the tent was made ready in the way I have explained. Then the priests went into the first room every day to do their worship duties. 7 But only the high priest could go into the second room, and he went in only once a year. Also, he could never enter that room without taking blood with him. He offered that blood to God for himself and for the sins the people committed without knowing they were sinning.

8 The Holy Spirit uses those two separate rooms to teach us that the way into the Most Holy Place was not open while the first room was still there. 9 This is an example for us today. It shows that the gifts and sacrifices the priests offer to God are not able to make the consciences of the worshipers completely clear. 10 These gifts and sacrifices are only about food and drink and special washings. They are only rules about the body. God gave them for his people to follow until the time of his new way.

Worship Under the New Agreement
11 But Christ has already come to be the high priest. He is the high priest of the good things we now have. But Christ does not serve in a place like the tent that those other priests served in. He serves in a better place. Unlike that tent, this one is perfect. It was not made by anyone here on earth. It does not belong to this world. 12 Christ entered the Most Holy Place only one time—enough for all time. He entered the Most Holy Place by using his own blood, not the blood of goats or young bulls. He entered there and made us free from sin forever.

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a cow were sprinkled on those who were no longer pure enough to enter the place of worship. The blood and ashes made them pure again—but only their bodies. 14 So surely the blood sacrifice of Christ can do much more. Christ offered himself through the eternal Spirit[c] as a perfect sacrifice to God. His blood will make us completely clean from the evil we have done. It will give us clear consciences so that we can worship the living God.

15 So Christ brings a new agreement from God to his people. He brings this agreement so that those who are chosen by God can have the blessings God promised, blessings that last forever. This can happen only because Christ died to free people from sins committed against the commands of the first agreement.

16 When someone dies and leaves a will, there must be proof that the one who wrote the will is dead. 17 A will means nothing while the one who wrote it is still living. It can be used only after that person’s death. 18 That is why blood was needed to begin the first agreement between God and his people. 19 First, Moses told the people every command in the law. Then he took the blood of young bulls and mixed it with water. He used red wool and a branch of hyssop to sprinkle the blood and water on the book of the law and on all the people. 20 Then he said, “This is the blood that makes the agreement good—the agreement that God commanded you to follow.”[d] 21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the Holy Tent. He sprinkled the blood over everything used in worship. 22 The law says that almost everything must be made clean by blood. Sins cannot be forgiven without a blood sacrifice.

Jesus Christ Is Our Sacrifice for Sin
23 These things are copies of the real things that are in heaven. These copies had to be made clean by animal sacrifices. But the real things in heaven must have much better sacrifices. 24 Christ went into the Most Holy Place. But it was not the man-made one, which is only a copy of the real one. He went into heaven, and he is there now before God to help us.

25 The high priest enters the Most Holy Place once every year. He takes with him blood to offer. But he does not offer his own blood like Christ did. Christ went into heaven, but not to offer himself many times like the high priest offers blood again and again. 26 If Christ had offered himself many times, he would have needed to suffer many times since the time the world was made. But he came to offer himself only once. And that once is enough for all time. He came at a time when the world is nearing an end. He came to take away all sin by offering himself as a sacrifice.

27 Everyone must die once. Then they are judged. 28 So Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to take away the sins of many people. And he will come a second time, but not to offer himself for sin. He will come the second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 14, 2021

Hebrews 10
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus Christ—the Only Sacrifice We Need
10 The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. The law tells people to offer the same sacrifices every year. Those who come to worship God continue to offer those sacrifices. But the law can never make them perfect. 2 If the law could make people perfect, those sacrifices would have already stopped. They would already be clean from their sins, and they would not still feel guilty. 3 But that’s not what happens. Their sacrifices make them remember their sins every year, 4 because it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 So when Christ came into the world he said,

“You don’t want sacrifices and offerings,
but you have prepared a body for me.
6 You are not pleased with the sacrifices of animals killed and burned
or with offerings to take away sins.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am, God.
It is written about me in the book of the law.
I have come to do what you want.’”

8 Christ first said, “You don’t want sacrifices and offerings. You are not pleased with animals killed and burned or with sacrifices to take away sin.” (These are all sacrifices that the law commands.) 9 Then he said, “Here I am, God. I have come to do what you want.” So God ends that first system of sacrifices and starts his new way. 10 Jesus Christ did the things God wanted him to do. And because of that, we are made holy through the sacrifice of Christ’s body. Christ made that sacrifice one time—enough for all time.

11 Every day the priests stand and do their religious service. Again and again they offer the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But Christ offered only one sacrifice for sins, and that sacrifice is good for all time. Then he sat down at the right side of God. 13 And now Christ waits there for his enemies to be put under his power.[a] 14 With one sacrifice Christ made his people perfect forever. They are the ones who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also tells us about this. First he says,

16 “This is the agreement I will make
with my people in the future, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts.
I will write my laws in their minds.”

17 Then he says,

“I will forget their sins
and never again remember the evil they have done.”

18 And after everything is forgiven, there is no more need for a sacrifice to pay for sins.

Come Near to God
19 And so, brothers and sisters, we are completely free to enter the Most Holy Place.[c] We can do this without fear because of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. 20 We enter through a new way that Jesus opened for us. It is a living way that leads through the curtain—Christ’s body. 21 And we have a great priest who rules the house of God. 22 Sprinkled with the blood of Christ, our hearts have been made free from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ. 23 We must hold on to the hope we have, never hesitating to tell people about it. We can trust God to do what he promised.

Help Each Other Be Strong
24 We should think about each other to see how we can encourage each other to show love and do good works. 25 We must not quit meeting together, as some are doing. No, we need to keep on encouraging each other. This becomes more and more important as you see the Day getting closer.

Don’t Turn Away From God’s Son
26 If we decide to continue sinning after we have learned the truth, then there is no other sacrifice that will take away sins. 27 If we continue sinning, all that is left for us is a fearful time of waiting for the judgment and the angry fire that will destroy those who live against God. 28 Whoever refused to obey the Law of Moses was found guilty from the testimony given by two or three witnesses. Such people were not forgiven. They were killed. 29 So think how much more punishment people deserve who show their hate for the Son of God—people who show they have no respect for the blood sacrifice that began the new agreement and once made them holy or who insult the Spirit of God’s grace. 30 We know that God said, “I will punish people for the wrongs they do; I will repay them.”[d] And he also said, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a terrible thing to face punishment from the living God.

Keep the Courage and Patience You Had
32 Remember the days when you first learned the truth. You had a hard struggle with much suffering, but you continued strong. 33 Sometimes people said hateful things to you and mistreated you in public. And sometimes you helped others who were being treated that same way. 34 Yes, you helped them in prison and shared in their suffering. And you were still happy when everything you owned was taken away from you. You continued to be happy, because you knew that you had something much better—something that would continue forever.

35 So don’t lose the courage that you had in the past. Your courage will be rewarded richly. 36 You must be patient. After you have done what God wants, you will get what he promised you. 37 He says,

“Very soon now, the one who is coming
will come and will not be late.
38 The person who is right with me
will live by trusting in me.
But I will not be pleased with the one
who turns back in fear.”

39 But we are not those who turn back and are lost. No, we are the people who have faith and are saved.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 14, 2021

Bottom line, Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians like is the book of James. Jer 31 was written to Israel. Neither was written to Gentiles.

Paul speaking about "spiritual circumcision" does not nullify original contexts of Hebrews, nor Jer 31.

Nathan@work · Apr 14, 2021

BobRyan said:
It has to be the church in both OT and NT because she is persecuted for 1260 years and is the focus of the wrath of the dragon in Rev 12. The Nation Church is the one that gives birth to Jesus - according to Jesus in John 4.
" 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews."

Salvation is of Christ - but the Jews were the nation church started by God at Sinai. That is the woman of Rev 12.

Notice what her characteristic is in Rev 12

5 And she gave birth to a Son, a male, who is going to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her Child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for 1,260 days.
.
..10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time, times, and half a time, away from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent hurled water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon had hurled out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

It is very clear that the woman

gives birth to Jesus --

and is protected by God during the 1260 years of persecution of the saints during the dark ages -

and her children are those who " keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And her children are they with whom the dragon is at war.

If you want to call it that then fine. But they are not the same ‘church’(called out ones).

The “nation church”(to use your words) of the Old Covenant was Israel after the flesh, under the law.

The Church of the New Covenant is Spiritual Israel, Jew and Gentile, in Christ.

The woman in Revelation is Israel after the flesh, but believers in Christ, hence the commandments and Faith keeping.

Again, it cannot be the New Covenant Church because it did not give birth to Christ - the New Covenant Church is born again in Christ, not Christ by it.

Valletta · Apr 14, 2021

BobRyan said:
If you look at my profile/icon picture on each one of my posts - they all say "SDA" that is just like me using the term "RCC" for Roman Catholic Church. SDA is "Seventh-day Adventist". I am SDA.

Other examples are:
UMC for United Methodist
PC-USA for Presbyterian church - USA
SDB - Seventh-day Baptist
SBA - Southern Baptist Association

etc.

I get it, but actually my Church is called the "Catholic Church."

Danthemailman · Apr 15, 2021

imge said:
I know these scriptures want to be ignored but Jesus said:

Mathew 19:6 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Jesus was quoting from the Ten.

So you are saying here that Jesus is teaching keeping that the 10 commandments is the way for the rich young ruler to be saved? That's the plan of salvation? Is that what the apostle Peter and the apostle Paul stated as well in Acts 10:43 and Acts 16:31? How do you define "keep" the commandments? Perfectly obey all 10 commandments from the old covenant of law? Have you perfectly obeyed all 10 commandments? Is that the standard by which you believe man will be saved?

In regards to Matthew 19:6, the rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Sound familiar? Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. The rich young ruler should have become convicted by the words of Jesus, but instead, he missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I know these scriptures want to be ignored, but Jesus said that whoever believes in (trusts in, relies on) Him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) Sadly, many trust in/rely on their "imperfect obedience" (works) to save them instead of trusting/relying in Jesus Christ alone to save them. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9)

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

We are saved by God's grace (His gift) though our faith, but those who are faithful also keep God's commandments (Exodus 20)

I noticed that SDA's spend a lot of time in the Old Testament. The old and new covenant does not mix. (Hebrews 8:13)

Revelations
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. What are the "Commandments of God"? The whole teaching of Adventists regarding the Mark of the Beast centers on Revelation 14:12 which says that those who have the "commandments of God" do not receive the mark. Adventists claim that this passage is referring to the Ten Commandments, and Sunday-keepers cannot be keeping the Ten Commandments because the Fourth Commandment instructs worship on Saturday.

The best way to interpret the meaning of John's writings is to compare them with the other writings of John. The Greek word for "commandments" in Rev. 14:12 is entole which means "an order, command, charge, precept, injunction."20 The same word is used repeatedly in the writings of John to refer to the instructions of Christ. John uses an entirely different Greek word in his writings when he refers to the Ten Commandments: nomas. For example:

Did not Moses give you the law {nomos}, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law {nomos}? Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19; Jesus is referring to the 6th commandment "Thou shalt not kill"--Ex. 20:13)

According to John, the number one commandment {entolae} of Jesus to the Apostles was not Sabbath-worship, but for them to love one another:

A new commandment {entolae} I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34) This is my commandment {entolae}, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

Notice how John refers to the "commandments" of God in his letter:

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments {entolas}. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments {entolas}; and His commandments {entolae} are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)

Earlier in the same letter John tells us exactly what the "commandments" of God are:

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His [God's] commandments {entolas} and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His [God's] commandment {entolae}, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He [God] commanded {entolaen} us. The one who keeps His [God's] commandments {entolas} abides in Him,... (1 John 3:21-24)

From this we can see that in John's writings the "commandments" of God are:

To believe in Jesus Christ
To love one another

Mark of the Beast

and there is this scripture:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Is this descriptive or prescriptive? In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments.

How do you define "do" His commandments? Perfectly obey? Have you perfectly obeyed all 10 commandments? Is that the standard you use?

Many other translations (ASV; HCSB; ESV; NASB; NIV; RSV etc..) say "wash their robes" which symbolizes those who have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of the Lamb (Romans 3:24-26). *Also see Revelation 7:14. Those who by faith that have trusted in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation have received God's imputed righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9) All unbelievers are in the same boat in Revelation 22:15.

Are we supposed to ignore these scriptures?

Don't ignore them, but also don't misinterpret them by teaching that salvation is obtained based on the merits of obeying the 10 commandments from the old covenant of law. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

The moral precepts of 9 of the 10 commandments are repeated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

Danthemailman · Apr 15, 2021

HIM said:
No you don't. Matt 5:17-20 is very clear and you don't see or refuse to see that. Or maybe you do see it and that is why you are not really adding anything to say it says different.

Because Heaven and Earth have not passed away and all has not been fulfilled. Therefore Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
How is to be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven? We will no case enter therein. Is exactly what the text says.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So according to your interpretation of these passages of scripture, we are still under the law? In regards to your argument above, see this article - Matthew 5:17-18

How long will you remain on the old covenant plantation?

In regards to Matthew 5:20 - "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." This statement by Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness and holiness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.

Paul explains in Romans 9:30-32 that even the Gentiles "who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone."

Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4, "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."

We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) *The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.*

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

There are those who argue since Jesus did not "abolish" the law, then the law is still in effect and is binding on Christians in the New Testament. Yet Paul is clear that believers in Christ are no longer under the law: Galatians 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. We are not under the Mosaic law but under the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2)

If the Law is still binding on us today, then it has not yet accomplished its purpose and it has not yet been fulfilled. If the law, as a legal system, is still binding on us today, then Jesus did not fulfill it and His sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save us. Yet Jesus fulfilled the law and now grants us eternal life as a free gift through faith in Him. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) In regards to the law, in Galatians 2:16, we read - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

God judges not me. Not my thing.

I expected you to plead the fifth. Don't want to incriminate yourself.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 15, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Let's talk scripture Dan,

Please don't make claims no one is stating here as it is misleading and not truthful as I do not know any SDA's that teach "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" (Galatians 1:6-9).

Let's discuss the scriptures. There is no Grace without Gods' law because Gods' law leads us to Gods' grace according to the scriptures *Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13. God's law shows us that we are all sinners in need of Gods' salvation and leads is to Christ that we might receive His forgiveness through faith.

How do we know what sin is? *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11. How do we know we are sinners in need of Gods' salvation and His saving grace (Romans 3:20; Romans 3:23)? It is through the law that is our school master that leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. So if we do away with God's law we do away with the school master that gives us the very knowledge of what sin is when broken and the scripture is fulfilled "they that be whole need not a physician but they that are sick" Jesus did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance and it is sinners that receive Gods' Grace through faith. Jesus is the great Physician we are the ones sick with sin and Jesus told the Scribes and the Pharisees to go and learn what that means in Matthew 9:12-13.

According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5 not disobedience to the faith (God's Word). Obedience to God's Law of course is not how we are saved it is the fruit of faith of one that has been born again to love and walk in Gods' Spirit *1 John 5:2-4; Galatians 5:16 that has already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27.

According to the scriptures if our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10.

John says that, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Now getting back on topic and application back to God's 4th commandment and "seventh day Sabbath". Is Gods' 4th commandment one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11? Are we in a saved state before God if we are knowingly practicing unrepentant sin according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31 in your view?

Now Dan what is it in the scriptures provided here that you do not agree with?

Questions On Doctrine FILE: question 14.htm
Adventist Review: The Limits of Grace
In the Face of Law and Grace: Adventist Views on Salvation and How We Speak About Them
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=jats
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=jats

Daniel Marsh · Apr 15, 2021

HIM said:
Believers

Romans 14

Daniel Marsh · Apr 15, 2021

HIM said:
Believers

What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 15, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Questions On Doctrine FILE: question 14.htm
Adventist Review: The Limits of Grace
In the Face of Law and Grace: Adventist Views on Salvation and How We Speak About Them
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=jats
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=jat s

Questions for you Daniel.

1. What do you think my post you are quoting from is saying and are you agreeing with my post you are quoting from or what is it in my post that you are quoting from that you disagree with and why? (scripture please).

2. Did you even read what you linked from those websites and documents?

........

The Relationship of Grace to Law and Works

QUESTION 14
It is generally understood that Adventists teach that salvation is by the grace of God—but plus the works of the law. What is the actual Adventist concept of the relation of grace to law and to human works? Is not the emphasis of Mrs. White on the necessity of works and obedience, rather than on the abounding saving grace of God?

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There has been regrettable misunderstanding as to our teaching on grace, law, and works, and their inter-relationships. According to Seventh-day Adventist belief, there is, and can be, no salvation through the law, or by human works of the law, but only through the saving grace of God. This principle, to us, is basic. This transcendent provision of the grace of God is emphasized both in the Old and the New Testament, although the truth of God's wondrous grace reaches its fullest unfolding, and most complete manifestation, in the New Testament times and record.

I. Grace Pre-eminent in the New Testament

The word "grace" (Greek, charis), occurs some 150 times in the New Testament. Paul made more use of this significant term than did any other New Testament

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writer, there being some 100 occurrences in his epistles. His close associate, Luke, used the word about 25 times in Luke and Acts, these two men thereby accounting for about five sixths of all the New Testament occurrences. "Grace" was by no means a new word invented by the apostles; the term was widely used in a variety of associated meanings in the LXX and in classical and later Greek literature. However, the New Testament often seems to attach a special significance to "grace" that is not found fully expressed elsewhere.

In the New Testament, grace is set forth as a distinctively divine quality. New Testament writers speak of "the grace of our God" (Jude 4); "the grace of Christ" (Gal. 1:6); and "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal. 6:18). Expressions like these constitute the opening and closing salutations in the letters of the apostles. They are found at the beginning of Peter's two letters, as well as in the fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul. They also appear at the close of these letters of spiritual counsel and encouragement.

This divine grace is further described by a remarkably wide range of adjectives and adverbs. It is called the "true grace of God" (1 Peter 5:12); abounding, or "abundant," grace (2 Cor. 4:15); the "manifold grace of God" (1 Peter 4:19); the "sufficient" grace of God (2 Cor. 12:9); the "exceeding grace of God" (2 Cor. 9:14). There is also the expression "grace for grace" (John 1:16); and reference to Christ Jesus our Lord as being "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14; compare verse 17). It is also the "free gift" of God (Rom. 5:15, 18).

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II. Bible Definition or Description of Grace

The distinctive meaning attached to the term "grace" in the New Testament, and especially in the writings of Paul, is that of the abundant, saving love of God toward sinners as revealed in Jesus Christ. Obviously, since all men have sinned and are destitute of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23), such favor and loving-kindness on God's part are wholly undeserved and unmerited by sinful man. Men have lived in hatred and rebellion against God (Rom. 1:21, 31, 32), have perverted His truth (verses 18, 25), have preferred to worship beasts and reptiles (verse 23), have defiled His image in their own bodies (verses 24-27), have blasphemed His name (Rom. 2:24), and have even despised God for His patience and forbearance (verse 4). Finally, they murdered His Son, sent to save them (Acts 7:52). Yet God has continued to regard man with love and kindness, that the revelation of His goodness may lead men to repentance (Rom. 2:4).

This is the grace of God in its peculiar New Testament sense. It is God's unlimited, all-inclusive, transforming love toward sinful men and women; and the good news of this grace, as revealed in Jesus Christ, is "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16). It is not merely God's mercy and willingness to forgive, but it is an active, energizing, transforming power to save. Thus it may fill a person (John 1:14), it may be given (Rom. 12:3, 6), it is all-sufficient (2 Cor. 12:9; compare Rom. 5:20), it reigns (Rom. 5:21), it teaches (Titus 2:11, 12), it establishes the heart (Heb. 13:9). In some instances "grace" seems almost to be equivalent

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to "gospel" (Col. 1:6) and to the working of God generally (Acts 11:23; 1 Peter 5:12). Ellen G. White wrote:

Divine grace is the great element of saving power.—Gospel Workers, p. 70.

Christ gave His life to make it possible for man to be restored to the image of God. It is the power of His grace that draws men together in obedience to the truth.—Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 249.

The "grace of God" has been fittingly called the "love of God"; that is, love, not so much in a general sense as in a specific sense; not so much love merely as love, but love directionally. Grace is the love of God flowing—flowing not upward or outward, but downward. It is that wonderful divine mercy and undeserved favor that flows from the great loving heart of God. And specifically, it is His love that flows downward from heaven to undeserving sinners here on earth. While deserving nothing but the wrath of God, we become, through this marvelous grace, the recipients of this love, this grace, which we do not in the least merit.

III. Ellen G. White on the Sovereignty of Grace

As to the apparently misunderstood teachings of Ellen G. White on the relationship of grace, law, and works, please note the following expression, written in 1905. Her writings are in pronounced harmony with Scripture, as well as sound historical theology.

Grace is an attribute of God exercised toward undeserving human beings. We did not seek for it, but it was sent in search of us. God rejoices to bestow His grace upon us, not because we are worthy, but because we are so utterly unworthy. Our only claim to His mercy is our great need.—The Ministry of Healing, p 161.

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More than that, the same writer adds that everything we enjoy, in the matchless blessings of salvation comes to us through the grace of God. Thus:

We owe everything to grace, free grace, sovereign grace. Grace in the covenant ordained our adoption. Grace in the Saviour effected our redemption, our regeneration, and our adoption to heirship with Christ.—Testimonies for the Church (1882), vol. 6, 268.

Recognized theological classics have stated these same truths in this way. Charles Hodge, formerly professor of systematic theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, declares:

The word [charis, "grace"] . . . means a favourable disposition, or kind feeling; and especially love as exercised toward the inferior, dependent, or unworthy. This is represented as the crowning attribute of the divine nature. Its manifestation is declared to be the grand end of the whole scheme of redemption. . . . He [God] raises men from spiritual death, "and makes them sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace." (Eph. 2:6, 7.) Therefore it is often asserted that salvation is of grace. The gospel is a system of grace. All its blessings are gratuitously bestowed; all is so ordered that in every step of the progress of redemption and in its consummation, the grace, or undeserved love of God, is conspicuously displayed. Nothing is given or promised on the ground of merit. Everything is an undeserved favour. That salvation was provided at all, is a matter of grace and not of debt.—-Systematic Theology (1871), vol. 2, p. 654.

With this, Adventists are in complete agreement.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 15, 2021

IV. The Fruitage of This Divine Grace

Many and varied are the manifestations of the grace of God. Our heavenly Father is called "the God of all grace" (1 Peter 5:10). We may do "despite unto the Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29). "We have redemption . . . according to the riches of his grace" (Eph. 1:7).

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We are to preach "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24) and "the word of his grace" (Acts 14:3). We are also "chosen by grace" (Rom. 11:5, R.S.V.).

Everything we enjoy in Christian experience comes to us because of this matchless grace of God. We were "called . . . by his grace" (Gal. 1:15). We have "believed" through His grace (Acts 18:27). We were "justified by his grace" (Titus 3:7). Paul could say, "I am what I am" because of "the grace of God" (1 Cor. 15:10). We too are saved by His grace (Eph. 2:5, 8).

The grace of God gives us a unique and secure standing before God. We are to "continue in the grace of God" (Acts 13:43) and to "grow in the grace . . . of our Lord" (2 Peter 3:18, R.S.V.). As we do this, we shall "stand" in the grace of God (Rom. 5:2).

So it is the grace of Christ alone that can save the soul; this alone can lift the fallen from the depths of degradation and sin. Ellen G. White's witness on this point is both clear and unvarying:

Divine grace is the great element of saving power; without it all human effort is unavailing.—Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students (1882), p. 538.

Christ delights to take apparently hopeless material, those whom Satan has debased and through whom he has worked, and make them the subjects of His grace.—Testimonies for the Church (1882), vol. 6, p. 308.

Further, she writes that it is also the grace of God that keeps us from falling, and enables us to remain steadfast and true to the divine calling.

There is only one power that can either make us steadfast or keep us so,—the grace of God, in truth. He who confides in aught else is already tottering, ready to fall.—Ibid. (1902), vol. 7, p. 189.

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Again, it is the grace of God, manifested in the lives of the children of God, that is the greatest argument as to the truth and power of the Christian faith.

By power of His grace manifested in the transformation of character the world is to be convinced that God has sent His Son as its Redeemer.—The Ministry of Healing (1905), p. 470.

And when at last the redeemed surround the throne of God, it will be by the wonderful grace of God.

If during this life they are loyal to God, they will at last "see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads." Revelation 22:4. And what is the happiness of heaven but to see God? What greater joy could come to the sinner saved by the grace of Christ than to look upon the face of God, and know Him as Father?—Ibid., p. 421.

V. The Relationship of Grace and Works

Salvation is not now, and never has been, by law or works; salvation is only by the grace of Christ. Moreover, there never was a time in the plan of God when salvation was by human works or effort. Nothing men can do, or have done, can in any way merit salvation.

While works are not a means of salvation, good works are the inevitable result of salvation. However, these good works are possible only for the child of God whose life is inwrought by the Spirit of God. It is to such believers that John writes when he bids them keep the commandments of God (1 John 3:22-24; 5:2, 3). This relationship and sequence is imperative, but is often misunderstood or reversed.

Even in the days of old, men were not justified by works; they were justified by faith. Thus the prophet Habakkuk wrote: "The just shall live by his faith" (Hab. 2:4; compare Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:8, 11; Phil. 3:9; Heb. 10:38). God calls upon man to be righteous; but

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man is naturally unrighteous. If he is to be prepared for the kingdom of God, he must be made righteous. This is something man cannot do in and of himself. He is unclean and unrighteous. The more he works, and the greater his effort, the more he reveals the unrighteousness of his own heart. Therefore if man is ever to become righteous, it must be by a power entirely outside himself—it must be by the power of God.

There is really no actual valid conflict between grace and the law—the Ten Commandments; each serves its special purpose in the plan of God. Grace, as such, is not opposed to the law, which is God's standard of righteousness; neither is the law opposed to grace. Each has its specific functions, and neither trespasses on the function of the other.

One thing is certain, man cannot be saved by any effort of his own. We profoundly believe that no works of the law, no deeds of the law, no effort however commendable, and no good works—whether they be many or few, sacrificial or not—can in any way justify the sinner (Titus 3:5; Rom. 3:20). Salvation is wholly of grace; it is the gift of God (Rom. 4:4, 5; Eph. 2:8).

Man in the beginning was made upright (Eccl. 7: 29). There was no taint of sin in him when he came forth from the hand of his Creator. He was made in the image of God, and his character was in harmony with the principles of God's holy law. But man sinned. Now, in and through the gospel, it is the purpose of God to restore in man that lost image of God. He was originally sinless; now he is sinful. But when the gospel of the grace of God does its work in his heart, he will be clothed with the robe of the righteousness of

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Christ. That righteousness is imputed to him in justification. It is imparted to him in sanctification. And through Christ, and Christ alone, it will be his, and his forever, in glorification.

But there are two dangers against which the children of God need to guard. This too has been forcefully stated by Ellen G. White:

There are two errors against which the children of God—particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace—especially need to guard. The first . . . is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new covenant promise is fulfilled: "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience—the service and allegiance of love—is the true sign of discipleship.—Steps to Christ (1892), pp. 64, 65.

The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden,—harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good.—Christ's Object Lessons (1900), p. 391.

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Ray C. Stedman has impressively set forth the relation of grace and law, and some common misconceptions, in the September, 1953, Our Hope, as follows:

If the question, "Is law opposed to grace?" were put to a representative group of evangelical believers today, the answer would be, in many instances, an emphatic "Yes." Even such a selected group as students of conservative Bible institutes and seminaries would probably give a strong affirmative to such a question. And they would be wrong! Despite their wide-eyed amazement at such a statement as this the fact remains that, biblically and theologically, they are dead wrong.

It is easy to understand why otherwise well-taught Christians are confused on this matter. No theological drum is more soundly thumped today than that of law vs. grace. No issue is more clearly drawn than that which separates the camp of the legalists from the adherents of grace. And this, of course, is pre-eminently right. What is commonly overlooked and little understood in this present day conflict between law and grace is that the issue is not between these two principles, as such, but between the abuse of the law, on the one hand and grace on the other.

To put the matter another way, it is only when the law is made a means of salvation or of restraint of sin that it comes into conflict with the principles of grace. In every other respect the two are complementary and not conflicting. But the law was never designed to save. In its essential principle it is not, and cannot ever be, opposed to grace, for the two operate in distinctly separate fields and for widely divergent purposes. The law is designed to reveal sin; grace is designed to save from sin. No conflict can possibly exist between these two.

The difference does not lie in the commandments of law versus the commandment-free life of grace, for the fact is that grace has its commandments too! Those who always associate the word "command" with the word "law" have failed to read the Bible accurately. After all, a command is but the expression of a desire on the part of one who has authority. If Christ is Lord of our lives, then He has authority in our lives and His requests become commands to all who love Him. These are the commandments of grace. The difference between them and the commandments of law lies in the motive. Why does one obey the law? For fear! Why does one obey a command of grace? For love!

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There lies the difference. The command may be the same in either case; the motive alone differs. What made the law so irritating was the sense of constraint it engendered. We were being asked to do what we really did not want to do. The same command, in the relationship of grace, elicits a prompt and willing obedience from us because we love the One who asks it of us. The sense of constraint is utterly gone.

What happened, then, when grace superseded law? Did the desire of God for men, as expressed in the law, change? No; it was even intensified and made to be inward rather than merely outward. What, then, changed? The motive of men's hearts! Once we strove in vain to obey a just law, lashed on by our fears of wrath to come. Now, as believers in Christ, we stand before God in the perfect righteousness of Christ and, because we love Him who first loved us, we seek to please Him—something we find great pleasure ourselves in doing—and thus, unconsciously, fulfill the law. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, judged sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:3, 4). The last clause is descriptive of what grace makes us do. (Italics supplied.)

This statement of Adventist position may well close with the admonition from Ellen G. White to our church:

Christ is pleading for the church in the heavenly courts above, pleading for those for whom He paid the redemption price of His own lifeblood. Centuries, ages, can never diminish the efficacy of this atoning sacrifice. The message of the gospel of His grace was to be given to the church in clear and distinct lines, that the world should no longer say that Seventh-day Adventists talk the law, the law, but do not teach or believe Christ.—Testimonies to Ministers, p. 92

A Christian poet has well said: I would not work my soul to save, For that my Lord hath done;
But I would work like any slave For the love of God's dear Son.

HIM · Apr 16, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Questions for you Daniel.

1. What do you think my post you are quoting from is saying and are you agreeing with my post you are quoting from or what is it in my post that you are quoting from that you disagree with and why? (scripture please).

2. Did you even read what you linked from those websites and documents?

........

The Relationship of Grace to Law and Works

QUESTION 14
It is generally understood that Adventists teach that salvation is by the grace of God—but plus the works of the law. What is the actual Adventist concept of the relation of grace to law and to human works? Is not the emphasis of Mrs. White on the necessity of works and obedience, rather than on the abounding saving grace of God?

135

There has been regrettable misunderstanding as to our teaching on grace, law, and works, and their inter-relationships. According to Seventh-day Adventist belief, there is, and can be, no salvation through the law, or by human works of the law, but only through the saving grace of God. This principle, to us, is basic. This transcendent provision of the grace of God is emphasized both in the Old and the New Testament, although the truth of God's wondrous grace reaches its fullest unfolding, and most complete manifestation, in the New Testament times and record.

I. Grace Pre-eminent in the New Testament

The word "grace" (Greek, charis), occurs some 150 times in the New Testament. Paul made more use of this significant term than did any other New Testament

136

writer, there being some 100 occurrences in his epistles. His close associate, Luke, used the word about 25 times in Luke and Acts, these two men thereby accounting for about five sixths of all the New Testament occurrences. "Grace" was by no means a new word invented by the apostles; the term was widely used in a variety of associated meanings in the LXX and in classical and later Greek literature. However, the New Testament often seems to attach a special significance to "grace" that is not found fully expressed elsewhere.

In the New Testament, grace is set forth as a distinctively divine quality. New Testament writers speak of "the grace of our God" (Jude 4); "the grace of Christ" (Gal. 1:6); and "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal. 6:18). Expressions like these constitute the opening and closing salutations in the letters of the apostles. They are found at the beginning of Peter's two letters, as well as in the fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul. They also appear at the close of these letters of spiritual counsel and encouragement.

This divine grace is further described by a remarkably wide range of adjectives and adverbs. It is called the "true grace of God" (1 Peter 5:12); abounding, or "abundant," grace (2 Cor. 4:15); the "manifold grace of God" (1 Peter 4:19); the "sufficient" grace of God (2 Cor. 12:9); the "exceeding grace of God" (2 Cor. 9:14). There is also the expression "grace for grace" (John 1:16); and reference to Christ Jesus our Lord as being "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14; compare verse 17). It is also the "free gift" of God (Rom. 5:15, 18).

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II. Bible Definition or Description of Grace

The distinctive meaning attached to the term "grace" in the New Testament, and especially in the writings of Paul, is that of the abundant, saving love of God toward sinners as revealed in Jesus Christ. Obviously, since all men have sinned and are destitute of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23), such favor and loving-kindness on God's part are wholly undeserved and unmerited by sinful man. Men have lived in hatred and rebellion against God (Rom. 1:21, 31, 32), have perverted His truth (verses 18, 25), have preferred to worship beasts and reptiles (verse 23), have defiled His image in their own bodies (verses 24-27), have blasphemed His name (Rom. 2:24), and have even despised God for His patience and forbearance (verse 4). Finally, they murdered His Son, sent to save them (Acts 7:52). Yet God has continued to regard man with love and kindness, that the revelation of His goodness may lead men to repentance (Rom. 2:4).

This is the grace of God in its peculiar New Testament sense. It is God's unlimited, all-inclusive, transforming love toward sinful men and women; and the good news of this grace, as revealed in Jesus Christ, is "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16). It is not merely God's mercy and willingness to forgive, but it is an active, energizing, transforming power to save. Thus it may fill a person (John 1:14), it may be given (Rom. 12:3, 6), it is all-sufficient (2 Cor. 12:9; compare Rom. 5:20), it reigns (Rom. 5:21), it teaches (Titus 2:11, 12), it establishes the heart (Heb. 13:9). In some instances "grace" seems almost to be equivalent

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to "gospel" (Col. 1:6) and to the working of God generally (Acts 11:23; 1 Peter 5:12). Ellen G. White wrote:

Divine grace is the great element of saving power.—Gospel Workers, p. 70.

Christ gave His life to make it possible for man to be restored to the image of God. It is the power of His grace that draws men together in obedience to the truth.—Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 249.

The "grace of God" has been fittingly called the "love of God"; that is, love, not so much in a general sense as in a specific sense; not so much love merely as love, but love directionally. Grace is the love of God flowing—flowing not upward or outward, but downward. It is that wonderful divine mercy and undeserved favor that flows from the great loving heart of God. And specifically, it is His love that flows downward from heaven to undeserving sinners here on earth. While deserving nothing but the wrath of God, we become, through this marvelous grace, the recipients of this love, this grace, which we do not in the least merit.

III. Ellen G. White on the Sovereignty of Grace

As to the apparently misunderstood teachings of Ellen G. White on the relationship of grace, law, and works, please note the following expression, written in 1905. Her writings are in pronounced harmony with Scripture, as well as sound historical theology.

Grace is an attribute of God exercised toward undeserving human beings. We did not seek for it, but it was sent in search of us. God rejoices to bestow His grace upon us, not because we are worthy, but because we are so utterly unworthy. Our only claim to His mercy is our great need.—The Ministry of Healing, p 161.

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More than that, the same writer adds that everything we enjoy, in the matchless blessings of salvation comes to us through the grace of God. Thus:

We owe everything to grace, free grace, sovereign grace. Grace in the covenant ordained our adoption. Grace in the Saviour effected our redemption, our regeneration, and our adoption to heirship with Christ.—Testimonies for the Church (1882), vol. 6, 268.

Recognized theological classics have stated these same truths in this way. Charles Hodge, formerly professor of systematic theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, declares:

The word [charis, "grace"] . . . means a favourable disposition, or kind feeling; and especially love as exercised toward the inferior, dependent, or unworthy. This is represented as the crowning attribute of the divine nature. Its manifestation is declared to be the grand end of the whole scheme of redemption. . . . He [God] raises men from spiritual death, "and makes them sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace." (Eph. 2:6, 7.) Therefore it is often asserted that salvation is of grace. The gospel is a system of grace. All its blessings are gratuitously bestowed; all is so ordered that in every step of the progress of redemption and in its consummation, the grace, or undeserved love of God, is conspicuously displayed. Nothing is given or promised on the ground of merit. Everything is an undeserved favour. That salvation was provided at all, is a matter of grace and not of debt.—-Systematic Theology (1871), vol. 2, p. 654.

With this, Adventists are in complete agreement.

Thanks for taking the time to gather and post this LGW. Happy Sabbath.

boughtwithaprice · Apr 16, 2021

BobRyan said:
Jesus never said He was building His church on Peter.

We find in 1 Cor 10:4 that the "Rock is Christ" -
We find in 1 Cor 3: 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

In Matt 16 Christ said to Peter "get thee behind me Satan" because Peter was on the path of making a serious mistake -- that he later turned away from.

Matt 16 Jesus said to Peter "you are Peter / petros (pebble)) - but on this PETRA (Rock - foundation stone) I will build my church"

Christ is telling us that Matt 16 "on this Petra I will build my church " and "that Petra (rock) is Jesus" 1Cor 10:4 – “No OTHER Petra (foundation) can anyone lay” 1Cor 3:11 -- according to the apostolic and explicit teaching in 1cor 10:4. Jesus is not a co-founder, or co-foundation upon which the church is built - he is the Petra – the foundation.

Matt 7
24“therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock (Petra).

25“and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock (Petra - bedrock)

I wanted to let you know Bob that it has been a pleasure speaking with you in this thread. Your replies have been honest thorough and without malice. I get the sense that you really want to follow all the commandments of God.
I am intrigued by the SDA, although I disagree with some of its conclusions. I wonder if you would be willing to continue our conversation here. The thread is about the Sabbath itself, but I don’t think it’s completely off topic to discuss the differences with the Catholic Church, which from reading The Great Controversy, would be SDAs opponent.

first to discuss the argument of Peter as the rock on which Christ founded the church. The Petra/Petros argument has been largely debunked. The differences in the words have to do with the gender of the object and not the contrast of Boulder vs pebble. Latin, Greek and Italian are languages that place gender on nouns. Petra is a feminine noun, Peter is a man, so the Petra had to be masculinized with the -os instead of the -a. If the Bible meant to call Peter the little rock, it would have used lithos which is the word for small stone. Also Christ gave him some very powerful responsibilities. He said I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven. This authority was not given to the other disciples or all believers but directly to Peter. The reason would be clear, heaven is a kingdom, not a democracy.

I understand you disagree. What was the church in the first three centuries before Constantine? Are we able to identify the Sabbath keeping believers?

HIM · Apr 16, 2021

Danthemailman said:
So according to your interpretation of these passages of scripture, we are still under the law? In regards to your argument above, see this article - Matthew 5:17-18

No according to Jesus we are to let our light shine before men that they see our good works that our Father be glorified. In respect to this He said that, "Until Heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled." Therefore he said in respect to the law, he mentioned, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven". And then in respect to that he says, "For I say unto you". That means as in verse 18 that what follows is directly related to what is about to be said. The use of the word "for" dictates this as does the word "that". So in respect to being called least in the Kingdom of Heaven for breaking one of these least commandments, and teaching men so, except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So what does it mean to be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven?

It means We shall in no case enter therein if we shall break one of these least (smallest) commandment and teach men so.

By the way, If there are commandments that are considered least, small in the mind and heart of God that means there are greater ones also.

Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

For all the law and the prophets hang, depend on these two. Matthew 22:37-40

Incidentally how can we be under that which now has become part of us through Christ?

For God has said His Law is in our hearts and in our minds, His Word in our hearts and mouths that is the word of faith in which we preach.

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

LoveGodsWord · Apr 16, 2021

Hi Dan, perhaps I can help with this one. So let's provide the background to your response here first. @imge posted the following...

imge said: ↑ I know these scriptures want to be ignored but Jesus said: Mathew 19:6 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Jesus was quoting from the Ten.

So @imge made the post above from the words of Jesus who was answering the question of the rich young ruler who was asking Jesus in Matthew 19:6 saying What must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus answered Him by saying why do you call me good there is no one good but God but if you will enter into eternal life we must keep the commandments of God then Jesus quoted each of the commandments from the 10 commandments of our duty of love to our fellow man. So let's go through your response section by section.

Danthemailman said:
So you are saying here that Jesus is teaching keeping that the 10 commandments is the way for the rich young ruler to be saved? That's the plan of salvation? Is that what the apostle Peter and the apostle Paul stated as well in Acts 10:43 and Acts 16:31? How do you define "keep" the commandments? Perfectly obey all 10 commandments from the old covenant of law? Have you perfectly obeyed all 10 commandments? Is that the standard by which you believe man will be saved?

Your questions to @imge show a lack of understanding of the old covenant Torah so let's touch a little on this first. Just like the new covenant God's 10 commandments are the standard for righteousness and Christian living (Psalms 119:172) and to break anyone of them (including the Sabbath) was sin in the old covenant just as they are in the new covenant *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and James 2:10-11.

In the old covenant unlike the new covenant when God's people sinned in order to seek out God's forgiveness for their sins, they had to seek out a Levite Priest and offer animal sacrifices for their sins in the earthly Sanctuary (Leviticus 1:3-17; 4:2-3; 20; 5:1-5; 16; 6:8-13) that was made after the pattern of the heavenly *Hebrews 8:1-6. All of the above laws for remission of sins were of course a part of the Mosiac book of the old covenant according to the scriptures and a part of the old covenant *Exodus 24:7 that are now fulfilled in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) to who they pointed to. Gods people in both the old covenant and the new covenant are saved in exactly the same way and that is through faith (Hebrews 11:1-40), although the process for forgiveness between the two covenants were different Gods' grace had always been received by God's people through faith as they believe and follow His Word (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So the difference here between the two covenant is that in the old covenant through the laws for remission of sins Gods' people looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah in Jesus as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10 while we look backwards in faith to Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world. We of course are in the new covenant now and not the old covenant. Jesus is now our true High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man and is our true sacrifice for sin offered by God on our behalf to all those who believe and follow His Word and accept Gods' son given by grace and received through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So what Jesus is stating here in Matthew 19:16-19 is that disobedience to God's law is not a demonstration of faith it is evidence of someone that does not have faith. Why? Because if God asks us to do something and we do not do it then we are not believing what God says which is why Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Paul says the same thing as Jesus in Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Genuine faith in demonstrated according to Paul in obedience to Gods' law in Romans 3:31 and Romans 13:8-10 which is agreeing with James in James 2:17-20; 26.

So although our salvation is a gift of God through His grace and there is nothing we can do to earn it Gods' grace is given to us so that we can be obedient to the faith among all nations *Romans 1:5. Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated in the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments therefore does not demonstrate genuine faith as it shows a lack of faith according to the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Apr 16, 2021

Danthemailman said:
The best way to interpret the meaning of John's writings is to compare them with the other writings of John. The Greek word for "commandments" in Rev. 14:12 is entole which means "an order, command, charge, precept, injunction."20 The same word is used repeatedly in the writings of John to refer to the instructions of Christ. John uses an entirely different Greek word in his writings when he refers to the Ten Commandments: nomas. For example:

Did not Moses give you the law {nomos}, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law {nomos}? Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19; Jesus is referring to the 6th commandment "Thou shalt not kill"--Ex. 20:13)

According to John, the number one commandment {entolae} of Jesus to the Apostles was not Sabbath-worship, but for them to love one another:

A new commandment {entolae} I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34) This is my commandment {entolae}, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

Notice how John refers to the "commandments" of God in his letter:

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments {entolas}. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments {entolas}; and His commandments {entolae} are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)

Earlier in the same letter John tells us exactly what the "commandments" of God are:

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His [God's] commandments {entolas} and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His [God's] commandment {entolae}, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He [God] commanded {entolaen} us. The one who keeps His [God's] commandments {entolas} abides in Him,... (1 John 3:21-24)

I respectfully disagree here Dan but let me explain why from the scriptures.

Revelation 14:12 says Here is the patience of the Saints here are those who keep he commandments (entole) of God and the faith of Jesus.

I believe it is a mistake on your part here Dan to think that entole has no application to God’s 10 commandments. The Greek meaning of ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) means a commandment or precept; injuction of an authoritative prescription

APPLICATION OF ENTOLE TO GOD’S 10 COMMANDMENTS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Now according to your post above you say the Greek word used in 1 John 3:23 is entole and because it's a different word to nomos then it does not mean God's law (10 Commandments) because the Greek word entole is used the scripture means Jesus command to love and you apply this to Revelation 14:12 as well. Let’s see if this idea is correct that entole can only be applied to Gods command to love or not according to the application of entole in the new testament scriptures.

Matthew 22 [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS

Jesus is actually quoting from the old Testament scriptures from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 here. Jesus is saying here that God’s law and Love cannot be separated in Matthew 22:36-40 as love is expressed through obedience to God’s law.

Now let's look at other scriptures in the new Testament Greek that use the same word entole.

Matthew 15.3-6 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment (entole) of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother (application God's 10 Commandments): . . But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, he shall be free, honors not his father or his mother. Thus have ye made the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) of God of none effect by your tradition.

Application of entole here is to God’s fifth commandment Exodus 20:12 of the 10 Commandments to Honor your father and mother.

Matthew 19.17-19 And he said unto him if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) He said unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Note once again to God's 10 commandments entole is being applied

Mark 7.9-10 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Romans 7:7-13 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet 8, But sin, taking occasion by the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785), worked out in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9, For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) came, sin revived, and I died. 10, And the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785), which was ordained to life, I found to be to death. 11, For sin, taking occasion by the commandment (entole), deceived me, and by it slew me. 12, Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) holy, and just, and good. 13, Was then that which is good made death to me? May it not be! But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) might become exceedingly sinful.

Note once again the application of entole in Romans 7 is to God's 10 commandments.

Romans 13:9 For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there is any other commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785), it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Note once again the application of entole in Romans 7 is to God's 10 commandments.

Ephesians 6:2 Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) with promise

Note once again the application of entole is to God's 10 commandments.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people.

2 Peter 2: 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) delivered to them.

Before Jesus.......

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

John 11:57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) , that, if any man knew where he were, he should show it, that they might take him.

………………

Here is one I saved last just for you

Luke 23:56. . . rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785)

…………

CONCLUSION: The Greek word application to commandment ἐντολή (entolḗ | G1785) depends on the context and subject matter to which it is applied. There are many examples as shown above where the Greek words use of entole is applied directly to God’s 10 commandments so to say Revelation 14:12 is not talking about Gods’ 10 commandments is simply unbiblical.

.........

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27). Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9). There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Hope this is helpful.

An Adventist view of the Sabbath Commandment - and why it is applicable to all mankind

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