RE: Calvin's Geneva. . .

Mark Quayle said:

Let me ask it this way --The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion", unlike, for example, the Vatican, where the Church IS the government. Is the Vatican's government the sort of thing you would prefer?

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You have presented me with an either-or fallacy. I would like government to operate according to scripture and if I had to sprinkle my baby because the Presbyterians were running things I would. Brother, what you fail to see is that the US has established a religion which includes sacrificial offers to their god and worship of self (abortion).

Secularism is a form of religion not the lack of one.

Paulomycin said:

Great. Agreed. So when does the theonomy come into it?

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I'm not sure what the question is.

When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence. Deut. 22:8

The general equity of the Law would make the home owner responsible for his property and it would be his duty to secure the roof area (if used) to prevent people from falling off.

Does that help?

JM said:

You have presented me with an either-or fallacy. I would like government to operate according to scripture and if I had to sprinkle my baby because the Presbyterians were running things I would. Brother, what you fail to see is that the US has established a religion which includes sacrificial offers to their god and worship of self (abortion).

Secularism is a form of religion not the lack of one.

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Haha now it looks like YOU are giving me an either-or fallacy! Yes, I did that on purpose to try to get you to be more forthcoming. But I think I have my answer now. So, thank you.

For what it is worth, and I don't mean this to denigrate you, the Constitution of the US is not anti-God. But present day use (or rather, non-use) of it is. But the framers of the Constitution knew from experience and history that Church-run government does not last, and I know that if some sect were to take over the same way Globalists and Progressives have taken over, the rest of us Christians would be in a bad way.

I'm in favor of the First Amendment, until Christ sets up his government. We can't usher that in.

And don't worry, I am not blind to what is going on here in the US. It's a lot more than just abortion --it is purposed destruction of mankind, in the long run, and certainly the ruin of the US meanwhile, and, of course, destruction by spiritual warfare against God on every front.

Mark Quayle said:

Haha now it looks like YOU are giving me an either-or fallacy! Yes, I did that on purpose to try to get you to be more forthcoming. But I think I have my answer now. So, thank you.

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Choosing between Christ and the (fill in the blank) is a fallacy? I presented you with a Gospel truth while you presented a secular fallacy.

For what it is worth, and I don't mean this to denigrate you, the Constitution of the US is not anti-God.

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The Constitution was written by deists who were smart enough to place in their government model checks and balances. Now, the Supreme Court rules the land and Biden is about to pack it with liberals.

But present day use (or rather, non-use) of it is. But the framers of the Constitution knew from experience and history that Church-run government does not last,

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I am not a utopian dreamer.

and I know that if some sect were to take over the same way Globalists and Progressives have taken over, the rest of us Christians would be in a bad way.

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People are not neutral in their outlook. It really is Christ or chaos, Christ or secularism, Christ or humanism.

It’s all in black and white…and grey!

I'm in favor of the First Amendment, until Christ sets up his government. We can't usher that in.

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This is where we differ.

Dan. 7
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Christ "came to the Ancient of Days," God the Father and was "given dominion and glory and a kingdom." Our Lord has given us very clear instructions to make disciples and restated His authority in the Great Commission, "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matthew 28

And don't worry, I am not blind to what is going on here in the US. It's a lot more than just abortion --it is purposed destruction of mankind, in the long run, and certainly the ruin of the US meanwhile, and, of course, destruction by spiritual warfare against God on every front.

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Well, Canada is further down that road. For a country that use to be called, "The Dominion of Canada" we have slide so very far from God.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: Matthew 13 is a powerful portion of scripture that tells us how the Kingdom comes into existence. It grows slowly like a mustard seed, it must permeate society like leaven does a lump of dough turning it into bread. Please consider how wheat and tares must grow together....

JM said:

Dan. 7
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Christ "came to the Ancient of Days," God the Father and was "given dominion and glory and a kingdom." Our Lord has given us very clear instructions to make disciples and restated His authority in the Great Commission, "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matthew 28

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In what way, do you think, these passages imply "ushering in the Kingdom"?

One thing I like about the 2nd amendment is that it prohibits any religion from 'taking over'. I'm pretty sure there will come a time when most will jump at the opportunity for a religious government and its 'saviour', and it won't be Christ.

JM said:

Choosing between Christ and the (fill in the blank) is a fallacy? I presented you with a Gospel truth while you presented a secular fallacy.

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You presented the notion that a good government cannot be by the United States Constitution. You didn't allow, for 'workable' even. And you imply that a less-than-theocratic Government is still going to work well, as long as it is Christian.

But my line of questions began with the hope of finding out if you meant you are in favor of a government that 'ushers in' Christ's kingdom. The JWs claim they are the ones to do this. Imagine if they were to become the government of a country.

Mark Quayle said:

In what way, do you think, these passages imply "ushering in the Kingdom"?

One thing I like about the 2nd amendment is that it prohibits any religion from 'taking over'. I'm pretty sure there will come a time when most will jump at the opportunity for a religious government and its 'saviour', and it won't be Christ.

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Sorry, missed this.

The Constitution is a good document but the role it was given was that of "saviour" from religion. It is the final authority over all religions including Christianity.

The Kingdom slowly grows over time and Christ's dominion increases over time. see Parable of the Mustard Seed

Mark Quayle said:

You presented the notion that a good government cannot be by the United States Constitution. You didn't allow, for 'workable' even. And you imply that a less-than-theocratic Government is still going to work well, as long as it is Christian.

But my line of questions began with the hope of finding out if you meant you are in favor of a government that 'ushers in' Christ's kingdom. The JWs claim they are the ones to do this. Imagine if they were to become the government of a country.

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It's "workable" but only in the human sense and only for a short time due to the inability of fallen humanity to maintain a government free from corruption. The Constitution is not a "saviour" from religion but a form of humanistic religion to its core. It places human reason above revelation, in so doing it removes the supernatural elements from creation and replaces them with "scientism" for example.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

JM said:

Sorry, missed this.

The Constitution is a good document but the role it was given was that of "saviour" from religion. It is the final authority over all religions including Christianity.

The Kingdom slowly grows over time and Christ's dominion increases over time. see Parable of the Mustard Seed

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The intention of the 1st amendment is not for Government to save from religion. Government is specifically prohibited from doing anything about religion, (except, of course, where a religion may interfere with other laws, concerning such as murder, kidnapping, freedom of speech and so on).

As far as I can tell, Geneva had expelled its Jewish members decades before Calvin. During Calvin's time it expelled Catholics, presumably with his agreement. I'm reasonably sure that attendance a (Reformed) church services was mandatory.

"Christianity and democracy are inevitably enemies."

"Democracy is the great love of the failures and cowards of life."

R.J. Rushdoony