How to read Revelation with a post 70AD authorship view

Nova2216 · Apr 8, 2021

Davy said:
Sorry, no time for games.

i give a scripture and ask a bible question and you call it "games"!!!

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Thank You Sir.

DragonFox91 · Apr 8, 2021

It seems strange to me, if Revelation is indeed authored by John the Apostle, why it was accepted so late.

I've never really done much study on Revelation myself. In church / church groups, it's usually taught 'we just know Jesus is coming back someday & will reign eternally' & that's about it. Of course, I've read it several times, especially the ending chapters.

Davy · Apr 10, 2021

DragonFox91 said:
It seems strange to me, if Revelation is indeed authored by John the Apostle, why it was accepted so late.

I've never really done much study on Revelation myself. In church / church groups, it's usually taught 'we just know Jesus is coming back someday & will reign eternally' & that's about it. Of course, I've read it several times, especially the ending chapters.

Most likely the cause is because of its style is so different than the rest of the New Testament Books. Revelation is actually written closer to the style of the Old Testament prophets.

The reality though is that The Lord's Book of Revelation reveals events directly linked to many Books in the whole Bible, including Genesis.

Nova2216 · Apr 11, 2021

Tree of Life said:
I think John was writing Revelation in the 90s. You're right, Revelation is not primarily about the pending destruction of Jerusalem as many preterists maintain. So what is it about? I am convinced that Revelation is best understood as being an apocalyptic look at the entire church age. It's about the time between Jesus' establishing the church at his first coming and Jesus' return. Revelation sketches broad patterns that we can expect to experience as the church militant. Revelation is divided into seven sections which each describe the church age from a different angle, each culminating in the return of Jesus. Jesus returns in the book of Revelation seven times! Final judgment is described in seven different ways.

Re 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What does this mean?

2000 years later?

John was going through "the tribulation" and was also "in the kingdom".

Re 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,

Note (Col. 1:13)

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Tree of Life · Apr 12, 2021

Nova2216 said:
Re 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What does this mean?

2000 years later?

Yes. And in John's own time. And in every period between. The entire church age. The time between Jesus' first and second coming is the time of tribulation.

Nova2216 · Apr 13, 2021

Tree of Life said:
Yes. And in John's own time. And in every period between. The entire church age. The time between Jesus' first and second coming is the time of tribulation.

The words "must shortly come to pass" mean until the end of time?

I and John seem to disagree (Rev.1:1)

Tree of Life · Apr 13, 2021

Nova2216 said:
The words "must shortly come to pass" mean until the end of time?

I and John seem to disagree (Rev.1:1)

Well. John describes Jesus returning to judge and to usher in a new heavens and new earth. This is part of what "must shortly come to pass". So, yes. Unless you believe that this has already happened, it must be talking about a longer period of time than John's lifetime or even what we've seen of church history so far.

Nova2216 · Apr 13, 2021

Tree of Life said:
Well. John describes Jesus returning to judge and to usher in a new heavens and new earth. This is part of what "must shortly come to pass". So, yes. Unless you believe that this has already happened, it must be talking about a longer period of time than John's lifetime or even what we've seen of church history so far.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;

When Christ comes again, then cometh the end.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

When Christ comes the earth will be burned up (dissolved).

Tree of Life · Apr 13, 2021

Nova2216 said:
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;

When Christ comes again, then cometh the end.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

When Christ comes the earth will be burned up (dissolved).

Exactly.

Nova2216 · Apr 15, 2021

Tree of Life said:
Exactly.

But do you agree this will also happen upon the return of Chirst?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

When Christ comes the earth will be burned up (dissolved).

Tree of Life · Apr 15, 2021

Nova2216 said:
But do you agree this will also happen upon the return of Chirst?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

When Christ comes the earth will be burned up (dissolved).

I agree with what Peter is saying, yes.

GreekOrthodox · Apr 15, 2021

DragonFox91 said:
It seems strange to me, if Revelation is indeed authored by John the Apostle, why it was accepted so late.

I've never really done much study on Revelation myself. In church / church groups, it's usually taught 'we just know Jesus is coming back someday & will reign eternally' & that's about it. Of course, I've read it several times, especially the ending chapters.

The Eastern churches were reluctant to accept it because a number of heretical groups latched on to it. So by the time we accepted it as canonical, we already had our liturgical readings set up. As a result, it is the only NT book not read publicly in the Eastern Orthodox church except in the church on Patmos.

Ligurian · Apr 21, 2021

HTacianas said:
Start at the beginning of the book:

Rev 1:19 “Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this..."

The writer is told to write "the things which you have seen", and "the things which are", and then "the things which will take place after this". Sort through it. What things had the writer seen, i.e., the things that had already passed? What was occurring at the time? What things were to come later?

It isn't a case of either/or, it is all of it together.

IMHO, the letters to the churches tell us what was happening even as John was writing. Smyrna is probably the first church of the persecution, and Philadelphia will be the last one before the Great Tribulation. I used to believe like a lotta people around me, that these churches were indicative of all the centuries. But I see them as a weeding-out process done by Jesus... with warning upon warning... some paid attention, some didn't. Thyatira split into Sardis and Philadelphia.

Ligurian · Apr 21, 2021

Davy said:
Looks to me like you're still viewing Revelation through a certain lens created by men.

The confusion many have in study of Revelation is with trying to make its events fit in the order they are written. Lord Jesus actually gave us the key to the order in His Olivet discourse. He gave seven main Signs in His Olivet discourse which are the Seals of Revelation 6. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials in Revelation are actually about those same 7 Signs in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The signs shown on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial reveal the day of His coming. But what most interpret instead is that all the Seals happen first, then all the Trumpets happen next, and then all the Vials all happen last.

Agreed. I don't believe that Revelation is strictly linear. Like all prophecy, it flashes forward and then flashes back to the whys for the things about to happen. Most people miss the trumpet's three woes, and think the dragon has already been kicked out. But Daniel's war in Heaven matches Revelation 12... and Heavenly Sion is still waiting to be acknowledged as the woman clothed with the sun.

Esaias 66:7 Before she that travailed brought forth, before the travail-pain came on, she escaped it and brought forth a male. 8 Who has heard such a thing? and who has seen after this manner? Has the earth travailed in one day? or has even a nation been born at once, that Sion has travailed, and brought forth her children? 9 But I have raised this expectation, yet thou hast not remembered Me, saith the Lord: behold, have not I made the bearing and barren woman? saith thy God.LXX

Ligurian · Apr 21, 2021

Nova2216 said:
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

When does 2Pet3 happen in the Revelation timeline? Chapter 16 shows Jesus warning them to keep their faith/robes... then comes Armageddon/fall of Babylon. Chapter 19 says Jesus calls the birds to the feast... tosses two beasts into the lake of fire and kills the remnant... the feast for crows... then the thousand years... and the white throne judgment... then new heavens and new earth.

Nova2216 · Apr 21, 2021

Ligurian said:
When does 2Pet3 happen in the Revelation timeline? Chapter 16 shows Jesus warning them to keep their faith/robes... then comes Armageddon/fall of Babylon. Chapter 19 says Jesus calls the birds to the feast... tosses two beasts into the lake of fire and kills the remnant... the feast for crows... then the thousand years... and the white throne judgment... then new heavens and new earth.

The Apostles desired to know the time of the end of the world.

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I am sure that includes John.

I do know this.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end,

2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,

When God "dissolves" something I am sure nothing is left.

Ligurian · Apr 21, 2021

Nova2216 said:
The Apostles desired to know the time of the end of the world.

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I am sure that includes John.

Chronology is everything. Mat.24 was written before Jesus came back from Heaven, Revelation was written after... and so was Mat.28.

Mat.28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, [that] shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

So... where do your verses fit into Revelation?

Davy · May 2, 2021

Nova2216 said:
The words "must shortly come to pass" mean until the end of time?

I and John seem to disagree (Rev.1:1)

Anyone can slice & dice that verse like you're doing, isolating it from the rest of God's Word. I could do that with your own words, pull out a specific phrase and apply a totally different meaning to it. What that is about is disregarding context.

Davy · May 2, 2021

Nova2216 said:
i give a scripture and ask a bible question and you call it "games"!!!

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Thank You Sir.

You never answered my question.

Davy · May 2, 2021

Nova2216 said:
Re 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What does this mean?

2000 years later?

John was going through "the tribulation" and was also "in the kingdom".

Re 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,

Note (Col. 1:13)

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

More slice & dice for the illiterate.

How to read Revelation with a post 70AD authorship view

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Hide The Pain

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Hide The Pain

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Hide The Pain

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Hide The Pain

Psalti Chrysostom

Cro-Magnon

Cro-Magnon

Cro-Magnon

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Cro-Magnon

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads