Church or cult, or what?

Warwick Shaw · Apr 14, 2021

Hello everyone!

I'm a current member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) , but I am going through some serious struggles with church membership right now.

To start off, I'm typing this on an "open phone" - brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it. It blocks any website deemed unsafe, including other Christian websites!

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.

I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned. Video games are banned. Open phones and computers are banned. Going to theaters is banned. Attending a concert is banned. Going to a different church is banned. If I miss a church meeting (there are 9 per week) my commitment to the church is questioned.

The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".

The "Man of God", as our leader is called, is above questioning. If he says something, it's true. For example, "a person who smokes doesn't have the spirit" and "people with beards have something to hide". I wish I was making those up! If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).

Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened. If you leave or are withdrawn from, it is said that you will likely end up in hell, as the brethren believe that if you are born into the PBCC, God meant for you to be there and if you leave you are questioning God's will.

My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.

Sorry for the rather long post. Would seriously appreciate some help and prayer . Thanks so much.

Gentle Lamb · Apr 14, 2021

This is not normal, not in the slightest. You are in a cult, go with your gut feeling and pray for wisdom and most importantly, get out!!! Run while you can. No human being is above questioning. When you read the gospels you will see how many questions Jesus answered. He made Himself lowly, humble, meek, and answered even seemingly obvious questions. A human being who says they are above questioning is nothing but a person full of pride, using it to keep people under control.

public hermit · Apr 14, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one.

Yeah, no that's not normal. My suggestlon would be to run, and don't look back. Your gut is telling right, I think.

Having said that, how entrenched are you? Do you have support outside the PBCC? Will breaking away cause hardship? Sorry, if I'm assuming too much, but it sounds very cultish. Are you prepared for whatever leaving entails? Godspeed, whatever the case.

Sketcher · Apr 14, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
Hello everyone!

I'm a current member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) , but I am going through some serious struggles with church membership right now.

To start off, I'm typing this on an "open phone" - brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it. It blocks any website deemed unsafe, including other Christian websites!

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.

I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned. Video games are banned. Open phones and computers are banned. Going to theaters is banned. Attending a concert is banned. Going to a different church is banned. If I miss a church meeting (there are 9 per week) my commitment to the church is questioned.

The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".

The "Man of God", as our leader is called, is above questioning. If he says something, it's true. For example, "a person who smokes doesn't have the spirit" and "people with beards have something to hide". I wish I was making those up! If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).

Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened. If you leave or are withdrawn from, it is said that you will likely end up in hell, as the brethren believe that if you are born into the PBCC, God meant for you to be there and if you leave you are questioning God's will.

My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.

Sorry for the rather long post. Would seriously appreciate some help and prayer . Thanks so much.

That is neither normal nor acceptable. Jesus dined with sinners repeatedly. There is no Biblical ban on going to theaters or concerts or visiting a different Christian church.

You should be very careful when it comes to openly challenging your leader - such people are master manipulators, often have their scripted arguments, and have spent their time in leadership shaping the minds of their congregation such that they can't argue with those scripted arguments. And failing that, there's going to be either physical or social retribution because they will have built that into the belief system of the group.

If you ask me, this is a cult. Get out, but be ready to sacrifice all of those relationships you have with the people there. Find a Bible-believing, Bible-practicing church in the area to go to instead. Now, I recognize that you might not be able to tell a good one from a bad one given your situation, but I also don't know enough about the churches in your area to recommend a specific one to you.

Plan your escape. It will be hard both during and after. Maybe some of us here can help, maybe not.

Carl Emerson · Apr 14, 2021

I have friends that came out - this is a very unhealthy controlling environment - Jesus called us to freedom not bondage.

On coming out, their joy returned as they repented of allowing the demands of man to silence the loving voice of Jesus within.

He has called you to a better life and purpose...

Der Alte · Apr 14, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
Hello everyone!
I'm a current member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) , but I am going through some serious struggles with church membership right now.
To start off, I'm typing this on an "open phone" - brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it. It blocks any website deemed unsafe, including other Christian websites!
Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.
I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned. Video games are banned. Open phones and computers are banned. Going to theaters is banned. Attending a concert is banned. Going to a different church is banned. If I miss a church meeting (there are 9 per week) my commitment to the church is questioned.
The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".
The "Man of God", as our leader is called, is above questioning. If he says something, it's true. For example, "a person who smokes doesn't have the spirit" and "people with beards have something to hide". I wish I was making those up! If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).
Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened. If you leave or are withdrawn from, it is said that you will likely end up in hell, as the brethren believe that if you are born into the PBCC, God meant for you to be there and if you leave you are questioning God's will.
My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.
Sorry for the rather long post. Would seriously appreciate some help and prayer . Thanks so much.

@Sketcher @Carl Emerson
I agree with both Sketcher and Carl Emerson
How can a Christian carry out the great commission Matthew 28:19-20 if they can't have normal relationships with non PBCC people.

timothyu · Apr 14, 2021

Not normal. God sets us free, not puts us in shackles. Our relationship with Him is personal, not through a mediary. If they are incapable of teaching you to be in the world but not of it, then they resort to threats. Just remember. Those who are put in a box soon grow to see the outside as the enemy. One of the oldest ploys for mind control.
BTW this method of operation is the same one used by those home marketing businesses that work on wealth through hierarchy. They teach you can't soar with eagles if you fly with turkeys. You are also beholden to those above you in the organisation as an encouragement for you to sucker in others to be below you and cater to you. It is just a simple matter of control... unless you like that sort of thing.

As an afterthought.. this much resembles people who lock themselves away in monasteries and the like which of course is fine. Only difference is this is more profitable to the institution.

OldWiseGuy · Apr 14, 2021

Dittos. Run and don't look back. Remember Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles.

Soyeong · Apr 14, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
Hello everyone!

I'm a current member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) , but I am going through some serious struggles with church membership right now.

To start off, I'm typing this on an "open phone" - brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it. It blocks any website deemed unsafe, including other Christian websites!

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.

I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned. Video games are banned. Open phones and computers are banned. Going to theaters is banned. Attending a concert is banned. Going to a different church is banned. If I miss a church meeting (there are 9 per week) my commitment to the church is questioned.

The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".

The "Man of God", as our leader is called, is above questioning. If he says something, it's true. For example, "a person who smokes doesn't have the spirit" and "people with beards have something to hide". I wish I was making those up! If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).

Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened. If you leave or are withdrawn from, it is said that you will likely end up in hell, as the brethren believe that if you are born into the PBCC, God meant for you to be there and if you leave you are questioning God's will.

My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.

Sorry for the rather long post. Would seriously appreciate some help and prayer . Thanks so much.

That is in no way normal or acceptable. Isolationism is a big indicator that you've likely joined a cult.

Pavel Mosko · Apr 14, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.

It's not normal. It almost sounds like a Biblically based form of Scientology, the Moonies etc. So I second the motion on running, escaping etc.

Bobber · Apr 15, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
Hello everyone!
I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned.

No employment at a non-brethren business? Well that's wonderful they could provide jobs for thousands of people who might get saved today! Of course good paying jobs that one can raise a family on! Don't think so. So that should tell you about that. So tell us the great list of careers they're offering. Maybe we should all join in? You do know right I'm using humor to make a point?

The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".

That type of thinking isn't unique as that's pretty much the standard line among many. I don't even mind people thinking such but if they want me to accept it they better be good at satisfying my inquiries I make from much study. If they don't I don't take seriously much of what they'd say.

If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).

Well you know what they say. It's better to quit a job rather than being fired. At least by quitting they can't say they fired (excommunicated) you. If you leave do so on your terms not theirs.

Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened.

So what you're saying is these people are sick in the mind. Keep this in mind if you leave this group, and if it's as bad as you say I'd be gone, but if you see such one on your travels be jovial, loving and kind and say with a smile, "Hey So-and-so how you doing!" Scripture says to comfort the feeble minded if you're given the opportunity.

When I say feeble minded I don't say that as a malicious put down. In the spiritual world that's sadly what they'd be. Remember they need what you've got.....the love of God and liberty and they don't need your hate. In their quite hours maybe when they're all alone they're minds may ponder over things and want the life you've got. A life that's willing and wanting to love everybody. A light in the darkness Jesus said we could be.

coffee4u · Apr 15, 2021

I knew as soon as you said
"brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it"
You are in a cult. Normal churches have no input into how you live your life.
How you live is between you and God, not between you and other people.

You need to get out, right away.

Psalm 27 · Apr 15, 2021

Gentle Lamb said:
He made Himself lowly, humble, meek, and answered even seemingly obvious questions.

No HE didn’t. This is a common misconception about The Lord. He often upbraided people, especially His disciples, for their lack of faith.

Would the Pharisees have described Him as meek? They plotted to kill Him for making Himself equal with God!

The only advice I can give, is to read all four gospels again. Keep coming back to them. Don’t ‘dip’ into favourite verses, or follow a ‘word for the day’.

Leet · Apr 15, 2021

Very cultish. It sounds like the Exclusive Brethren church we have in Australia.

Psalm 27 · Apr 15, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
Hello everyone!

I'm a current member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) , but I am going through some serious struggles with church membership right now.

To start off, I'm typing this on an "open phone" - brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it. It blocks any website deemed unsafe, including other Christian websites!

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.

I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned. Video games are banned. Open phones and computers are banned. Going to theaters is banned. Attending a concert is banned. Going to a different church is banned. If I miss a church meeting (there are 9 per week) my commitment to the church is questioned.

The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".

The "Man of God", as our leader is called, is above questioning. If he says something, it's true. For example, "a person who smokes doesn't have the spirit" and "people with beards have something to hide". I wish I was making those up! If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).

Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened. If you leave or are withdrawn from, it is said that you will likely end up in hell, as the brethren believe that if you are born into the PBCC, God meant for you to be there and if you leave you are questioning God's will.

My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.

Sorry for the rather long post. Would seriously appreciate some help and prayer . Thanks so much.

The Lord Jesus didn’t/doesn’t ‘force’ Himself on His creation.

Excommunication is a control tactic, often used to bring people back into compliance.

family can only do that, if we allow them to.

He who The Son sets free, will be free indeed.
Jesus sets captives free...

Praying for you-numbers 6:24-26

I used to belong to a church, which I had doubts about. I recently visited the church, and I watched the children, too scared to look up, let alone speak. That’s just not right.
Ps. I want to be rid of my phone

timothyu · Apr 15, 2021

Leet said:
Very cultish. It sounds like the Exclusive Brethren church we have in Australia.

I thought this Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is Australian.

honey badger · Apr 15, 2021

all temples/churches are congregated by stone throwers ....

Ceallaigh · Apr 15, 2021

When I put "Plymouth Brethren Christian Church" into Google, it automatically added the word "cult".

I hate to use the "Google is your friend" line. But seriously, it's so easy to investigate something you're unsure of via the internet, to see what others have to say about it, to see what kind of reputation it has, before getting involved with it.

Gentle Lamb · Apr 15, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
No HE didn’t. This is a common misconception about The Lord. He often upbraided people, especially His disciples, for their lack of faith.

Would the Pharisees have described Him as meek? They plotted to kill Him for making Himself equal with God!

The only advice I can give, is to read all four gospels again. Keep coming back to them. Don’t ‘dip’ into favourite verses, or follow a ‘word for the day’.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Yes, He did.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 15, 2021

Warwick Shaw said:
Hello everyone!

I'm a current member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) , but I am going through some serious struggles with church membership right now.

To start off, I'm typing this on an "open phone" - brethren speak for a phone that doesn't have the church-mandated internet protection software on it. It blocks any website deemed unsafe, including other Christian websites!

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.

I'm not allowed to eat or drink with anyone not in the PBCC, and 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is quoted to support this. Employment at non-brethren businesses is banned. Video games are banned. Open phones and computers are banned. Going to theaters is banned. Attending a concert is banned. Going to a different church is banned. If I miss a church meeting (there are 9 per week) my commitment to the church is questioned.

The brethren attitude towards Christians outside is that they are saved, but they don't have the light that the brethren have, which has been brought to us by the "men of God".

The "Man of God", as our leader is called, is above questioning. If he says something, it's true. For example, "a person who smokes doesn't have the spirit" and "people with beards have something to hide". I wish I was making those up! If I questioned those, I would likely be "shut up" (a brethren version of quarantine, essentially) or withdrawn from (excommunicated).

Being withdrawn from means that everyone in the PBCC with not talk to you; emails and phone calls will go unanswered; parcels and letters will be returned unopened. If you leave or are withdrawn from, it is said that you will likely end up in hell, as the brethren believe that if you are born into the PBCC, God meant for you to be there and if you leave you are questioning God's will.

My basic question is, is this normal and acceptable ? I have a serious gut feel about the whole situation and it isn't a good one. Half of me thinks the whole thing is a sham and the other half wants to think that the brethren are right and that I should stop questioning it.

Sorry for the rather long post. Would seriously appreciate some help and prayer . Thanks so much.

Welcome. I am sorry to hear you are involved in this cult. Time to get out before it becomes very difficult. I will pray for you. Be blessed.

Church or cult, or what?

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