Use of Johnson & Johnson COVID Vaccine is Paused

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tropical Wilds

Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
Oct 2, 2009
4,760
3,103
New England
✟192,560.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Covid: UK may approve one-dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine suspended by US FDA over blood clot fears | Daily Mail Online

The six women who developed clots – representing a rate of around one in a million – were aged between 18 and 48; one of them died and another is in hospital, the New York Times reports.

Thrombosis seems to be a common side effect with these COVID vaccines. The stated rate may only be one in a million, but I expect that will turn out to be under-reported.

And the vaccine is reportedly not even close to 100% effective at stopping infection. So by extension, recipients can probably still transmit the virus to others.

Clinical trials suggest the vaccine offers 100 per cent protection from severe Covid leading to hospitalisation or death, and around 66 per cent protection from mild infection.

So what exactly is the benefit to healthy young people, with no underlying health issues, who have a negligible risk of being hospitalised or dying of COVID? Why do these people need protecting from a 'mild infection'. Why not just let their God-given immune system do its job, and stop interfering?

Because your “mild infection” passed on to somebody else may be their deadly infection.

Your “it’s a mild infection for me” theory only works if we think of you as the center of the universe and only care about your prognosis as opposed to the overall health of the populace. The fact that you’re doing and feeling great is a small consolation to the 563,000 who died and the family and friends who miss them.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Who is going to argue that this is scary?
I assume you mean "who is going to argue that this is not scary"?

Well, I will. The odds (so far) of getting the blood clot are 1 in 1,000,000.

You are more likely to drown in your bathtub (1 in 840,000).

Do I really need to show that your risk of dying from Covid (if you do not take the vaccine) are much higher?
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It has been over a year and social distancing and mask wearing has worked fine for me up until now.
This is selection bias - it is like the survivor of a plane crash in which some people have died arguing that it is safe to being in crashing planes.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,892.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Here’s an idea. If you want to get vaccinated, do so. If you don’t, don't. Then we can all live our lives as we see fit.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think the problems with the vaccines are being covered up, and it is much bigger than this 6 people being reported.
What evidence do you have to offer? Do you believe that side effects are being covered up for other vaccines like polio, measles, hepatitis, and the flu?
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Here’s an idea. If you want to get vaccinated, do so. If you don’t, don't. Then we can all live our lives as we see fit.
You are trying to pass this off as a "let's all act in accordance with the dictates of our own conscience and not 'interfere' with each other's choices" thing.

Well how about this, which is based on the same idea: "let each decide whether he wants to drink and drive or not; then we can all live our lives as we see fit"
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,892.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
You are trying to pass this off as a "let's all act in accordance with the dictates of our own conscience and not 'interfere' with each other's choices" thing.

Well how about this, which is based on the same idea: "let each decide whether he wants to drink and drive or not; then we can all live our lives as we see fit"
If I drink and drive, it’s dangerous because my ability to drive is impaired. If I don’t get the vaccine...well, nothing is impaired.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are trying to pass this off as a "let's all act in accordance with the dictates of our own conscience and not 'interfere' with each other's choices" thing.

Well how about this, which is based on the same idea: "let each decide whether he wants to drink and drive or not; then we can all live our lives as we see fit"

False equivalency. There is no intoxication factor in abstaining from a vaccine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hammster
Upvote 0

jgarden

Senior Veteran
Jan 1, 2004
10,695
3,181
✟106,405.00
Faith
Methodist
We still don't know the longer term affects either. No way am going to be pressured into getting one.
Given that the new variants of COVID-19 appear to be more lethal and target younger age groups than the original strain, there are no guarantees that any of the vaccines will be without side-effects!

Life is a series of decisions based on"trade-offs" - choosing not to be vaccinated shifts that responsibility for attaining "herd immunity" onto others, so that you can reap the benefits!
 
Upvote 0

JustSomeBloke

Unacceptable Fringe Minority
Supporter
Sep 10, 2018
1,507
1,580
My Home
✟177,126.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is difficult to believe you are serious.

How is it not patently obvious that your argument is false? The fact that some people who get vaccinated will get infected does not - and this is smash-my-head-on-my-keyboard-obvious - mean that there is not a benefit to getting the vaccine.

Again, it is beyond obvious that those who are spared from infection by the vaccine will not be infecting others!

And even if the vaccine does not prevent infection at all, the argument for getting the vaccine can be understood by a 7 year old: the vaccine reduces the risk of severe disease and death (apart from whether it has an effect on transmission).
Receiving the vaccine is only a benefit if the likelihood of dying from COVID is greater than the likelihood of dying from or suffering adverse effects from the vaccine. Not everyone is at the same risk of death from a COVID infection, so it follows that the decision on whether to accept the vaccine can only be taken on an individual basis. For the vast majority of seven year olds, the vaccine is a greater risk than a COVID infection.

So? They paused AstroZeneca too for a while. Now it appears that the benefit of the vaccination vastly outweighs the risk except for a cohort of very young women.

Specific issues with specific vaccines aside, there is no credible argument against getting vaccinated (except for very rare exceptions)
Last time I checked, no fewer than 18 countries had suspended use of the Astra Zeneca vaccine. And today I learned that one country (Denmark) has permanently banned the Astra Zenaca vaccine. It's hard to see how that supports your view that the vaccine is safe for most people.

If you are not simply guessing and have solid, defensible reasons for believing that, on balance, the focus on Covid has made things worse overall, then, please, present it.
Many diseases and conditions that cause death are progressive. To put it another way, they do not kill over a period of days or weeks, but slowly spread or become more severe until death is the only outcome. In the UK, it is already known that cancer diagnosis has radically dropped due to the focus on COVID, so it's not unreasonable to expect that over the next few years cancer deaths may increase. There is also the poverty and mental health issues caused by lockdown and associated loss of jobs, both of which would ultimately be expected to shorten lives.

Again, you need to actually defend this rather shocking assertion. Let me concede that the focus on Covid likely has reduced quality of care in other areas.

You guys always deploy the same strategy - you focus on one aspect of what is really a very complex problem. Sure, young cancer sufferers almost certainly are getting worse care than if we did nothing about Covid.

But what if we actually did nothing starting last March. I am told that the more transmissions there are, the more variants there will be. And, as we are seeing right now, some of these variants are more transmissible and more dangerous. So if we let Covid run rampant, who knows what an awful situation we might be in now.
I am not advocating 'letting COVID run rampant', so that's a straw man argument. Vaccination should be a personal choice, and those who are elderly or vulnerable for medical reasons would be well advised to take it. For everyone else, vaccination is probably more risky than letting their own immune system deal with it.

....and there we have it, the smoking gun.

Jesus healed the sick! You are effectively saying "that's nice, but that is not an example I choose to follow".
That's not what I'm saying at all. But I've already addressed misunderstandings elsewhere.

Interesting framing. And, of course, misleading.

Do you think a grocery store or an airline is being unreasonable to deny service to people who insist on shouting at the top of their lungs while in the grocery store, or on the plane?

I suggest that it is entirely reasonable for service providers to deny service to those who refuse to comply with "public interest" regulations, when it is easy for people to abide by such regulations.

Is is "coercion" if I am required to not scream at the top of my lungs on an airplane?
Another strawman argument. I'm not saying that people should be able to shout at others.

Who said they were a conspiracy theory? Post number, please.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but some COVID threads have been locked, and at least one has been totally erased.

Your claim is not plausible. If it really were the case that there was a real debate about the wisdom of getting vaccinated, it would be in the news.

But it's not - there is near unanimity that all adults should get vaccinated.
There is only 'near unanimity that all adults should get vaccinated' amongst the experts that are allowed to have a platform. Many highly qualified experts disagree with COVID management strategies, but they do not benefit from the same platform and prominence. The fact that you think that there is unanimity shows that you are unaware that you have been manipulated by the government and MSM propaganda, who deliberately only present one side, and don't allow any kind of meaningful debate.

I assume you mean "who is going to argue that this is not scary"?

Well, I will. The odds (so far) of getting the blood clot are 1 in 1,000,000.

You are more likely to drown in your bathtub (1 in 840,000).

Do I really need to show that your risk of dying from Covid (if you do not take the vaccine) are much higher?
The one in a million risk is almost certainly statistically fraudulent. I've already explained it elsewhere.

If you really want to understand what is going on, there is plenty of information out there, but it takes effort to find it and understand it, which explains why so many people have been duped by government and MSM propaganda. Oh, almost forgot, you need an open mind and critical analysis skills too.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JustSomeBloke

Unacceptable Fringe Minority
Supporter
Sep 10, 2018
1,507
1,580
My Home
✟177,126.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
  • Like
Reactions: IntriKate
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'm afraid that you are the one who is spreading Fake News.

Not at all. It's a proposal document only and the article makes clear that no decisions have been taken.

What does it say anyway? Quote:

"That looks both at these questions around international travel, but is also looking at the question of whether, in order to be able to care for people professionally, then you ought to have protected yourself so that you can't infect others.

"This is something that happens already. For instance, doctors have to have the hepatitis B vaccine, and it's clearly something that has important moral questions on both sides."

What's unreasonable about that? In any event, no one would be forced to take it because no one is forced to be a care worker.
 
Upvote 0

JustSomeBloke

Unacceptable Fringe Minority
Supporter
Sep 10, 2018
1,507
1,580
My Home
✟177,126.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not at all. It's a proposal document only and the article makes clear that no decisions have been taken.
You are in denial. The UK government is pushing very hard for this. Only a large back bench rebellion and every Labour MP voting against it can stop it.

And here is another incidence:
Hospital trust reportedly plans to make Covid-19 jab mandatory for staff - A letter from Chelsea and Westminster Hospital Foundation Trust allegedly says it ‘will be making Covid vaccination mandatory for all our employees’.

Possibly a court might rule that it is illegal to make vaccination a condition of employment, but I'd rather we don't even get to the point that court cases have to be brought against employers or the UK government.

What does it say anyway? Quote:

"That looks both at these questions around international travel, but is also looking at the question of whether, in order to be able to care for people professionally, then you ought to have protected yourself so that you can't infect others.

"This is something that happens already. For instance, doctors have to have the hepatitis B vaccine, and it's clearly something that has important moral questions on both sides."
1. I think Hep. B vaccines are probably to protect the clinicians, rather than the patients, as clinicians are sometimes exposed to patient's body fluids.
2. COVID vaccines are an experimental treatment without full approval, whereas Hep. B vaccines are an established treatment with full approval.

What's unreasonable about that? In any event, no one would be forced to take it because no one is forced to be a care worker.
So if you don't want to be injected with an experimental treatment, you have to throw away all your job-specific training, experience, and career development plans. That doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.

Do you know what the Nuremberg Code is, and what it is intended to prevent? The very first line states:
  1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.
How is it voluntary if you lose your job and career if you refuse to consent?

Do you understand the concepts of 'thin end of the wedge', and 'divide and rule'? Carers may be the first to be targeted for mandatory vaccination, but they will surely not be the last.

You don't seem to be very well informed about any of this. All you are doing is parroting government sound bites, without thinking about any of it, or being aware of the ethical arguments against mandatory vaccination.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You are in denial.

I strenuously deny that.

And here is another incidence

Let's deal with this point first before jumping to another one like a restless mountain goat.

Possibly a court might rule that it is illegal to make vaccination a condition of employment,

Possibly, but then again, possibly not.

COVID vaccines are an experimental treatment without full approval, whereas Hep. B vaccines are an established treatment with full approval.

The trials were accelerated because we were in a pandemic situation. Would it have been better to have waited the typical several years before the vaccines were approved? Regarding the UK, the MHRA has approved the AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. What further approval is required?

Do you know what the Nuremberg Code is...?

Yes. It's a code first developed, I think, in Nuremberg.

Do you understand the concepts of 'thin end of the wedge', and 'divide and rule'? Carers may be the first to be targeted for mandatory vaccination, but they will surely not be the last.

Speculation, not fact.

You don't seem to be very well informed about any of this. All you are doing is parroting government sound bites, without thinking about any of it, or being aware of the ethical arguments against mandatory vaccination.

But there is no mandatory vaccination, not even for parrots.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It beggars credulity to imagine they are all right. Scientific inquiry IS incredulity!
What?

My point is the rather obvious one that it is exceedingly unlikely that 99% + of all experts would be wrong.

You are simply denying this obvious truth - how, exactly, does it make sense for you to assert that it beggars credulity to think that this overwhelming majority of experts are right?

If qualified experts agree it is dangerous to smoke, does it "beggar credulity" to think they are right?
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I am suspicious of all these mRNA vaccines. All of the vaccine currently used for Covid are based on new mRNA technology. Somehow, although rarely, blood clots and deaths are associated with them.
Incorrect - it is the other way around. The vaccines that are associated with blood clots are not mRNA:

Both Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca use the same vaccine technology, which differs from the mRNA vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.