Are you dead to the Law?

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So now, let us consider what our Lord have said :
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. -Matthew 5:17

So our Lord told us NOT TO THINK that He has come to abolish the law of God, that He spoke through Moses but He has come to fulfill them.

In regards to Matthew 5:17:

Well, if I took an apple seed and took out a hammer and smashed it, then the apple seed would be destroyed or abolished altogether. But if I planted an apple seed in the ground with good soil, nutrients, and water, then the apple seed should grow to be fulfilled into it's intended purpose (i.e. to be an apple tree). When we look at an apple seed and an apple tree, they do not appear the same. Yet, the apple tree cannot exist without the apple seed. This is why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Jesus fulfilled the Law by what He did upon the cross, and by bringing in New Covenant teachings that were superior to the Old. While Matthew 5:17 is referring to the Law of Moses, we also read in context in Matthew 5:19 about how Jesus also referred to the “least of these commandments,” too; I believe these commands are in reference to the new teachings He was giving at the Sermon on the Mount, and not the Old Covenant laws. For...

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​


So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy
the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
(Matthew 5:17).​

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
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Threads like this go back and forth between not being under the law but also keeping the law, as in you don't get to live like a heathen when you're a disciple of Christ.

Probably most of those advocating the law don't mean the whole law. They probably don't have the 613 of them memorized. They probably only know the top 10 and maybe a few others.

Probably most of those who say we're not under the law any longer, are not saying we are free to break the top 10 laws and other obvious moral laws that even humanistic law and morality upholds.

The Old Law as a whole or package deal is no longer applicable under the New Covenant. So there is no 10 commandments technically speaking. Yes, 9 out of the 10 commandments still apply today, but there is no 10 as a group anymore. The Sabbath command was not repeated by our Lord Jesus Christ or by His followers, and Sabbath breaking is not listed among the other sins that Jesus, the apostle John, and or the apostle Paul had mentioned. Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Acts of the Apostles 13:39, Colossians 2:14-17 and Romans 14:5 also suggest that the Sabbath is no more, as well.

I remember a guy once in a Bible study I attended at a restaurant, and he yelled out in how we need to keep the 10 commandments and that's it (Note: He seemed kind of angry when he said it, too). I could not help but to hide in my rolling my eyes at that kind of statement. Clearly this man never truly read his Bible closely. It simply showed his own lack of knowledge of what the Scriptures actually say (IMO). Christians are not under the Old Law. But that does not mean Christians are lawless. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His apostles in the pages of the New Testament. It is a serious error to think that we are under the 613 Laws of Moses. On the opposite side of the spectrum, it is just as grave of an error for those believers who think they can abide in serious sin (on some level) and still be saved. Believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Yes, that even includes me. For even the apostle Paul thought he could be disqualified or a cast away (See: 1 Corinthians 9:27).
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You are the first Christian I ran into who believes in keeping all of the Old Law (Which I doubt anyone today keeps). All I can say that such a profession is crazy and it goes against what the apostle Paul preached in many places. It even goes against what we read in the book of Acts, as well. For what do you make of Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and Acts of the Apostles 13:39?

No one ever could keep "all of the Old Law".
 
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No one ever could keep "all of the Old Law".

Is this why the keeping of the Old Law is proposed?
Because it is impossible?
Why bother to defend the Old Law if nobody is able to keep it?
It makes no sense.
I believe we can keep God's laws but these are the commands in the New Testament that come from Jesus and His apostles.

I mean, do you not know that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world according to Titus 2:11-12? Do you not know that 2 Corinthians 7:1 says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God? Such passages do not make sense in light of your belief.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Is this why the keeping of the Old Law is proposed?
Because it is impossible?
Why bother to defend the Old Law if nobody is able to keep it?
It makes no sense.

You did not read what I wrote.
 
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You did not read what I wrote.

Which post # or post #'s are you talking about?
Are you not capable of bringing up a quick few points here in what you feel I am ignoring in what you said?
 
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@Yeshua HaDerekh

Besides, what you said has nothing to do with the verses I put forth to you before.
Your recent statement that nobody can keep God's laws is not consistent with Scripture.

For example: How do you interpret Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 13:14 and Titus 2:11-12?
 
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Butterball1

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There were laws given prior to Sinai. Do you think God one day just thought them up and gave them at Sinai? What laws are you saying are the NT laws? Are Yeshua's laws different than the Father's? A house divided can not stand. What is your definition of a Judaizer?

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf
I scanned thru the above link which contains many laws found within the NT.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 Judaizers were those Jews who were trying to bind OT laws upon Gentile converts, trying to make Gentiles live as Jews according to Jewish laws...therefore I call them Judaizers..." .....why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:14) They even tried to influence Peter (Galatians 2:11-13) whereby Paul had to stand Peter to the face. Paul called the Galatians foolish for listening to these Judaizers, (Galatians 3:1-2). Below is a link of Paul having to deal with Judaizers in Jerusalem, Galatia, Colossae and Corinth....
The "Judaizers" | Early History | A Study of Denominations
 
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SANTOSO

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In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his past experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. So if you hold to the popular sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24, you have a contradiction in your Bible.
Dear BH,
Neither I intend to debate with you nor to offend you; My intention is to speak to you the truth in love.

When apostle Paul shared what He said in the book of Roman; in that book there is no indication that he recounted his past experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. I understand that you quoted me from other book in the scripture. Yes, I have considered what you quoted me but there is no mention what he said in Roman 7:14-25 as he recounted his experiences as a Pharisee in the book of Roman. When he recount his experience as a Pharisee, he mentioned that in that book.

What I have written in my first reply,
I was inferring what the OP has shared on Roman 7:4

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. -Romans 7:4

So what apostle Paul was referring that we as brothers in Christ have also died to THE LAW OF SIN through the body of Christ.

Didn’t our Lord die on the cross to pay our sins ? Yes, He did.

When I quoted and explained Roman 7:14-25.

I intend to elaborate that our Lord did not die on the cross to the law that God spoke through Moses, which some consider as OT law.

But He died to THE LAW OF SIN but He lives to THE LAW OF GOD.

As we heard:
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all,
but the life he lives he lives to God. -Romans 6:10
 
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SANTOSO

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Yes, the topic of conversation in Romans 7 is the Old Law, but this is Paul speaking from his perspective as a Pharisee (When he did not know Jesus Christ). The clue to understanding that we are not under the Old Law is found in many passages.

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
Dear BH,
I am glad that you shared what I have not understand or perceived before. I do consider again what you have said. Don’t misunderstand me ! I don’t intend to offend you ! But I just shared with you what I understand and perceive. That we may together grow as we speak the truth in love.

This is what I consider :

But as it is,
Christ has obtained a MINISTRY that is as much more excellent than THE OLD

as the covenant he MEDITATES is better
, since it is ENACTED on better promises. -Hebrews 8:6

When you mentioned about circumcision on
Genesis 17:14 !
Don’t you have to MINISTER to a person to be circumcised?
That is why our Lord have a obtained a MINISTRY that is as much more excellent than THE OLD; this is what we have heard:

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, -Colossians 2:11

When you mentioned about Sabbath on Numbers 15:32-36 !

Likewise, we heard:
And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. -Mark 2:27

So what MINISTRY that is as much more excellent than THE OLD; this is what we heard:

And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. -Matthew 12:7

I understand you ask me to consider the law is changed; when you quoted:

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. -Hebrews 7:12

If you read what is previously said in Hebrews 7:11, it would be clear what law is changed ! This is what we have heard:

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), WHAT FURTHER NEED would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11

So the law that is changed from the order of Levitical priesthood to the order of Melchizedek.

Now Jesus Christ our Lord is also our High priest according to the law of the order of Melchizedek.

So the law that God spoke through IS CHANGED FROM the order of Levitical priesthood to the order of Melchizedek priesthood.

So our Lord Jesus Christ do not abolish the Law that God has spoken through Moses but our Lord CHANGES THE LAW from the order of Levitical priesthood to the order of Melchizedek. Why ? Perfection cannot be attained under the order of Levitical priesthood.

This is what we have heard:

For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. -Hebrews 2:10
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Which post # or post #'s are you talking about?
Are you not capable of bringing up a quick few points here in what you feel I am ignoring in what you said?

63
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf
I scanned thru the above link which contains many laws found within the NT.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 Judaizers were those Jews who were trying to bind OT laws upon Gentile converts, trying to make Gentiles live as Jews according to Jewish laws...therefore I call them Judaizers..." .....why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:14) They even tried to influence Peter (Galatians 2:11-13) whereby Paul had to stand Peter to the face. Paul called the Galatians foolish for listening to these Judaizers, (Galatians 3:1-2). Below is a link of Paul having to deal with Judaizers in Jerusalem, Galatia, Colossae and Corinth....
The "Judaizers" | Early History | A Study of Denominations

Peter and Paul were both Jews. Acts 15 applied the Noahide laws for Ger Toshav. If you wanted to go further, Moses was taught every Sabbath. Paul was calling Peter a hypocrite for not eating with gentiles. Judaizers were those that taught law was for salvation.
 
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In regards to Matthew 5:17:

Well, if I took an apple seed and took out a hammer and smashed it, then the apple seed would be destroyed or abolished altogether. But if I planted an apple seed in the ground with good soil, nutrients, and water, then the apple seed should grow to be fulfilled into it's intended purpose (i.e. to be an apple tree). When we look at an apple seed and an apple tree, they do not appear the same. Yet, the apple tree cannot exist without the apple seed. This is why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Jesus fulfilled the Law by what He did upon the cross, and by bringing in New Covenant teachings that were superior to the Old. While Matthew 5:17 is referring to the Law of Moses, we also read in context in Matthew 5:19 about how Jesus also referred to the “least of these commandments,” too; I believe these commands are in reference to the new teachings He was giving at the Sermon on the Mount, and not the Old Covenant laws. For...

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​


So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy
the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
(Matthew 5:17).​

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
Dear BH,
This is what has been said to us :
We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, -Hebrews 6:19
where Jesus has gone
as a forerunner on our behalf, having become
A HIGH PRIEST FOREVER
AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.
-Hebrews 6:20

What does this mean that we have;
This is what we have heard:

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law),
WHAT FURTHER NEED would there have been for ANOTHER PRIEST to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11
For when there is A CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is NECESSARILY A CHANGE IN THE LAW as well. -Hebrews 7:12

So since there is a change in priesthood
from the order of Aaron to to the order of Melchizedek,
NECESSARILY there is a change in the law; where in the Old Testament, for under Levitical priesthood the people received the law to now where in the New Testament, for under grace — we God’s people received the law of God through Christ.

Dear BH,
What you consider as the old way or the new way; this is what I consider as OLD MINISTRY AND NEW MINISTRY, for we heard this:

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. -Hebrews 8:6

Yes, I do consider what you have quoted Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25 as THE OLD MINISTRY, and what you quoted on
Matthew 5:39 as the NEW MINISTRY of Christ, that is ENACTED on better promises.

Likewise, you have quoted Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21) — OLD MINISTRY, and Matthew 5:34-37 as the NEW MINISTRY of Christ — on how we minister ourselves before others, that is following the instructions that our Lord has given.

Also, you have quoted Psalms 143:12, Joshua 6:17, Joshua 6:21, Deuteronomy 22:20-22 —that OLD MINISTRY, and John 8:7 as the NEW MINISTRY of Christ— what our Lord have changed ; he mediates all on better promises.
 
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Except I never said that. YOU are saying I said that. Read what I write...not what YOU want what I wrote to say...

Post #63. You said, I quote: “No one ever could keep "all of the Old Law".”

This kind of statement leads me to believe that we can sin and still be saved on some level. Why? Because by what you said so far, you think that we under the Old Law, and yet nobody can keep the Old Law. Obviously you think Christians are saved, and so this means that a Christian can break God's laws and still be saved. This is the conclusion I am given. If it is not what you are saying, then please tell me how I misunderstood you.
 
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Dear BH,
I am glad that you shared what I have not understand or perceived before. I do consider again what you have said. Don’t misunderstand me ! I don’t intend to offend you ! But I just shared with you what I understand and perceive. That we may together grow as we speak the truth in love.

This is what I consider :

But as it is,
Christ has obtained a MINISTRY that is as much more excellent than THE OLD

as the covenant he MEDITATES is better
, since it is ENACTED on better promises. -Hebrews 8:6

When you mentioned about circumcision on
Genesis 17:14 !
Don’t you have to MINISTER to a person to be circumcised?
That is why our Lord have a obtained a MINISTRY that is as much more excellent than THE OLD; this is what we have heard:

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, -Colossians 2:11

When you mentioned about Sabbath on Numbers 15:32-36 !

Likewise, we heard:
And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. -Mark 2:27

So what MINISTRY that is as much more excellent than THE OLD; this is what we heard:

And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. -Matthew 12:7

I understand you ask me to consider the law is changed; when you quoted:

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. -Hebrews 7:12

If you read what is previously said in Hebrews 7:11, it would be clear what law is changed ! This is what we have heard:

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), WHAT FURTHER NEED would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11

So the law that is changed from the order of Levitical priesthood to the order of Melchizedek.

Now Jesus Christ our Lord is also our High priest according to the law of the order of Melchizedek.

So the law that God spoke through IS CHANGED FROM the order of Levitical priesthood to the order of Melchizedek priesthood.

So our Lord Jesus Christ do not abolish the Law that God has spoken through Moses but our Lord CHANGES THE LAW from the order of Levitical priesthood to the order of Melchizedek. Why ? Perfection cannot be attained under the order of Levitical priesthood.

This is what we have heard:

For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. -Hebrews 2:10

Well, I am not in disagreement that the priesthood order has changed, and I am not in disagreement that we are under a better covenant. I am also not in disagreement that the OT saint could not be perfect in the same way that the NT saint can. But what I would like to emphasize here is that while there is a change of the priesthood, there is also a change of the Law, too (Hebrews 7:12). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The New Testament is filled with many commands (of which a small handful are actually called commands). If you break these commands, you need to confess and forsake them in order to continue to have mercy (or salvation). Salvation is not a walk in the park. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
 
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Dear BH,
This is what has been said to us :
We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, -Hebrews 6:19
where Jesus has gone
as a forerunner on our behalf, having become
A HIGH PRIEST FOREVER
AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.
-Hebrews 6:20

What does this mean that we have;
This is what we have heard:

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law),
WHAT FURTHER NEED would there have been for ANOTHER PRIEST to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? -Hebrews 7:11
For when there is A CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is NECESSARILY A CHANGE IN THE LAW as well. -Hebrews 7:12

So since there is a change in priesthood
from the order of Aaron to to the order of Melchizedek,
NECESSARILY there is a change in the law; where in the Old Testament, for under Levitical priesthood the people received the law to now where in the New Testament, for under grace — we God’s people received the law of God through Christ.

Dear BH,
What you consider as the old way or the new way; this is what I consider as OLD MINISTRY AND NEW MINISTRY, for we heard this:

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. -Hebrews 8:6

Yes, I do consider what you have quoted Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25 as THE OLD MINISTRY, and what you quoted on
Matthew 5:39 as the NEW MINISTRY of Christ, that is ENACTED on better promises.

Likewise, you have quoted Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21) — OLD MINISTRY, and Matthew 5:34-37 as the NEW MINISTRY of Christ — on how we minister ourselves before others, that is following the instructions that our Lord has given.

Also, you have quoted Psalms 143:12, Joshua 6:17, Joshua 6:21, Deuteronomy 22:20-22 —that OLD MINISTRY, and John 8:7 as the NEW MINISTRY of Christ— what our Lord have changed ; he mediates all on better promises.

How is the New Covenant better than the Old Covenant?
Well, there is no capital punishment instituted by God's people if you were to break certain laws by God. There are no more offering of animal sacrifices offered year after year to a priest for the same past sins. There are not a ton of rituals anymore. So yeah. Things are definitely better in the New Covenant by far.

However, that does not mean that all we have to do is believe in Jesus for salvation and we are good to go to Heaven. Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus as one's Savior, and a belief in the gospel, but it then manifests itself with the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11). The work of faith is a part of the faith. Think of faith like two sides of a coin. One side being a trust or faith in God's grace when a believer first comes to the Lord, and the other side of the coin is living holy by God's power (Which is a manifestation of faith, i.e. the work of faith). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). For Paul says there are vain deceivers who deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). So works of faith are required because they are a part of the faith that continues to access the saving grace of God. In fact, faith comes by hearing the Word of God (the Bible) (Romans 10:17). This would not be hearing only the parts of the Bible that we want to hear that makes salvation sound easy.
 
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Post #63. You said, I quote: “No one ever could keep "all of the Old Law".”

This kind of statement leads me to believe that we can sin and still be saved on some level. Why? Because by what you said so far, you think that we under the Old Law, and yet nobody can keep the Old Law. Obviously you think Christians are saved, and so this means that a Christian can break God's laws and still be saved. This is the conclusion I am given. If it is not what you are saying, then please tell me how I misunderstood you.

You ask because you do not understand Torah. If you did you would not say the things you do. The key is "All". Name one person who kept ALL of the Law. That is what YOU said..."All of the Old Law"
 
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You ask because you do not understand Torah. If you did you would not say the things you do. The key is "All". Name one person who kept ALL of the Law. That is what YOU said..."All of the Old Law"

As for your saying that I do not know Torah:

Well, the Law is only good if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). I know a little, but I am not an expert. For my field of study is not the Torah because you cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). Gentile Christians are told that they do not have to keep the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). We are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law (the Law of Moses), you have fallen from grace. So then what purpose or point is there in knowing the Law if it is useless or not beneficial to a believer?​

As for your claim that believers did not keep the Old Law:

Well, my Bible says that Zacharias, and Elisabeth walked in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.

5 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5-6).​

Note: This was during the time of the Old Covenant before Christ was crucified and began the New Covenant. Anyways, my guess is that you simply cannot read and believe this passage above. You have to alter it to fit what you personally believe.
 
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I know a little, but I am not an expert.

As for your claim that believers did not keep the Old Law:

Well, my Bible says that Zacharias, and Elisabeth walked in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.

5 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5-6).​

Note: This was during the time of the Old Covenant before Christ was crucified and began the New Covenant. Anyways, my guess is that you simply cannot read and believe this passage above. You have to alter it to fit what you personally believe.


I agree that you know little regarding Torah. You have shown it. I have not altered anything. I agree with what it says. Yes they did walk in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly....but they did not keep "ALL of the Old Law" as you have said. No one can. Do you understand why?
 
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