Justification: What are the misunderstandings between Catholics and Protestants?

HosannaHM

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Hello everyone!

I listened to someone recently (of the Catholic persuasion) explaining what was wrong with the protestant explanation of justification by faith alone. He mixed up regeneration with sanctification, and it was very confusing to say the least. He came to the conclusion that Protestants contradict themselves on the topic, but his presentation was misrepresenting Protestantism! As a Protestant, I don't want to misrepresent Catholics. Straw-manning each other won't do any good.

I want to keep this conversation as friendly as possible. Here are a couple questions to get started:

1. Do all Catholic priests agree with the anathema (regarding salvation by faith alone) statement put out by the Vatican in their catechism?

2. Most Protestants see works as evidence of an active faith. Basically, if you are in Christ you will have good works (Ephesians 2:10) Do all Catholics believe their works add to their salvation.

Feel free to answer or add any thoughts pertaining to the subject matter. Go!
 

Landon Caeli

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I don't think it makes one bit of difference if salvation is by either works or faith or both... They're too intertwined, IMO, and I see it as splitting hairs.

...BTW, if anyone can show where the CCC says salvation by faith alone is anathema, I would appreciate it.
 
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NomNomPizza

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Hello everyone!

I listened to someone recently (of the Catholic persuasion) explaining what was wrong with the protestant explanation of justification by faith alone. He mixed up regeneration with sanctification, and it was very confusing to say the least. He came to the conclusion that Protestants contradict themselves on the topic, but his presentation was misrepresenting Protestantism! As a Protestant, I don't want to misrepresent Catholics. Straw-manning each other won't do any good.

I want to keep this conversation as friendly as possible. Here are a couple questions to get started:

1. Do all Catholic priests agree with the anathema (regarding salvation by faith alone) statement put out by the Vatican in their catechism?

2. Most Protestants see works as evidence of an active faith. Basically, if you are in Christ you will have good works (Ephesians 2:10) Do all Catholics believe their works add to their salvation.

Feel free to answer or add any thoughts pertaining to the subject matter. Go!

I believe if Catholic does not agree with the catehism statement of Anathema he/she is automatically excommunicated from the church and has Anathema put on them aswell.


Quote
If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Basically if Catholic priest goes for your statement he loses , if he goes against it he loses too cuz he gets excommunicated from his Church and gets put on by the Church Anathema on him making him unable to be saved.
 
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PloverWing

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I've heard Catholics and Protestants use the vocabulary around salvation differently, which can be confusing when we try to talk to each other. Protestants tend to use the word "justification" to mean the beginning step of having our sins forgiven through the work of Christ, while (if I understand correctly) Catholic theologians more often use the word "justification" to mean the broader process of becoming Christlike, encompassing also what a Protestant would call "sanctification". To the extent that that's the case, we're not disagreeing, just using words differently.

Catholics and Protestants alike agree that, as Christians, we have forgiveness through the work of Christ, we receive saving grace from God, and we should, over time, come more and more to live in the way that Jesus taught.

If we ask the question "What is the absolute minimum that I can do and still escape Hell?", then we might hear different answers from Catholics and Protestants. But I don't think that's the healthiest question to be asking.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I believe if Catholic does not agree with the catehism statement of Anathema he/she is automatically excommunicated from the church and has Anathema put on them aswell.


Quote
If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Basically if Catholic priest goes for your statement he loses , if he goes against it he loses too cuz he gets excommunicated from his Church and gets put on by the Church Anathema on him making him unable to be saved.

I don't think the Catechism says that.
 
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All Glory To God

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I know Protestant Justification has typically been defined as Christs imputed righteousness to the believer. Granting them forgiveness of sins and the right of entrance to the kingdom of God.

As far as Rome is concerned, I would think they would say people need to ''cooperate with Gods Grace'' and therefore Christs effort by itself is insufficient without the works of the believer.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Hello everyone!

I listened to someone recently (of the Catholic persuasion) explaining what was wrong with the protestant explanation of justification by faith alone. He mixed up regeneration with sanctification, and it was very confusing to say the least. He came to the conclusion that Protestants contradict themselves on the topic, but his presentation was misrepresenting Protestantism! As a Protestant, I don't want to misrepresent Catholics. Straw-manning each other won't do any good.
As you may know, Catholics and Protestants typically use the same theological words but mean different things. Sanctification is one of those words.
I want to keep this conversation as friendly as possible. Here are a couple questions to get started:

1. Do all Catholic priests agree with the anathema (regarding salvation by faith alone) statement put out by the Vatican in their catechism?
Do all Catholic priests agree about anything?

Specifically, what paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church are you referring to?
2. Most Protestants see works as evidence of an active faith. Basically, if you are in Christ you will have good works (Ephesians 2:10) Do all Catholics believe their works add to their salvation.
Have you by chance read the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification? It might help to answer some of your questions. https://www.lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/2020/documents/joint_declaration_2019_en.pdf
 
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HosannaHM

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I know Protestant Justification has typically been defined as Christs imputed righteousness to the believer. Granting them forgiveness of sins and the right of entrance to the kingdom of God.

As far as Rome is concerned, I would think they would say people need to ''cooperate with Gods Grace'' and therefore Christs effort by itself is insufficient without the works of the believer.
Well put. This may actually be the biggest point of contention.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hello everyone!

I listened to someone recently (of the Catholic persuasion) explaining what was wrong with the protestant explanation of justification by faith alone. He mixed up regeneration with sanctification, and it was very confusing to say the least. He came to the conclusion that Protestants contradict themselves on the topic, but his presentation was misrepresenting Protestantism! As a Protestant, I don't want to misrepresent Catholics. Straw-manning each other won't do any good.

I want to keep this conversation as friendly as possible. Here are a couple questions to get started:

1. Do all Catholic priests agree with the anathema (regarding salvation by faith alone) statement put out by the Vatican in their catechism?

2. Most Protestants see works as evidence of an active faith. Basically, if you are in Christ you will have good works (Ephesians 2:10) Do all Catholics believe their works add to their salvation.

Feel free to answer or add any thoughts pertaining to the subject matter. Go!

I’m curious, what are your thoughts on faith without love? Many people say we are saved by faith alone but what about faith without love. Paul mentions this problem in 1 Corinthians 13.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Hey Landon, I think Nomnom quoted that from the Council of Trent. Have there been any changes for Rome regarding the topic sense then?

That's not the CCC... He's tricking us.
 
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HosannaHM

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As you may know, Catholics and Protestants typically use the same theological words but mean different things. Sanctification is one of those words.

Do all Catholic priests agree about anything?

Specifically, what paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church are you referring to?

Have you by chance read the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification? It might help to answer some of your questions. https://www.lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/2020/documents/joint_declaration_2019_en.pdf
I'm not certain if it is in the catechism (could be an honest misrepresentation :) ) but I know it was in the Council of Trent and Vatican II.
I have not read that- I will check it out!
 
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Soyeong

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Hello everyone!

I listened to someone recently (of the Catholic persuasion) explaining what was wrong with the protestant explanation of justification by faith alone. He mixed up regeneration with sanctification, and it was very confusing to say the least. He came to the conclusion that Protestants contradict themselves on the topic, but his presentation was misrepresenting Protestantism! As a Protestant, I don't want to misrepresent Catholics. Straw-manning each other won't do any good.

I want to keep this conversation as friendly as possible. Here are a couple questions to get started:

1. Do all Catholic priests agree with the anathema (regarding salvation by faith alone) statement put out by the Vatican in their catechism?

2. Most Protestants see works as evidence of an active faith. Basically, if you are in Christ you will have good works (Ephesians 2:10) Do all Catholics believe their works add to their salvation.

Feel free to answer or add any thoughts pertaining to the subject matter. Go!

The issue is that we can obey God's law for purposes other than trying to earn our salvation, especially because God's law was never commanded as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against that should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring obedience to God's law for some other reason, such as faith. In Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith will be justified and will obey it by the same faith, which is why Paul could say in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified while denying in Romans 4:4-5 that our justification is something that can be earned as a wage. Luther said that we are justified by faith alone, which is true insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn any part of our justification, but he also said that faith is never alone, which is true insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience, which is essentially what Paul was saying in Romans 3:28-31, where we are justified by faith apart from works of the insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn any part of our salvation, however, Paul did not want us to conclude that our faith therefore abolishes our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law. Getting to obey God's law through faith is itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation, not something that we need that in order to become saved or because we have been saved.
 
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HosannaHM

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I’m curious, what are your thoughts on faith without love? I many people say we are saved by faith alone but what about faith without love. Paul mentions this problem in 1 Corinthians 13.
Hello, my thoughts are you can't have faith devoid of love. When Protestants speak of "justification by faith alone", they mean that the work of justification is carried out in what Christ accomplished on the cross for the believers.
As far as salvation is concerned, we believe it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. That's where the terminology can appear confusing, because alone doesn't mean devoid of other things, but rather that we are saved(justified) by faith in Christ. Love was the reason Christ endured the very wrath of God.
So Christ's work (It is finished) is imputed to believers, and then the works believers do are evidence of an active faith.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm not certain if it is in the catechism (could be an honest misrepresentation :) ) but I know it was in the Council of Trent and Vatican II.
I'm just asking because this kind of stuff is often treated as very polemical and is often misquoted. So I wanted to know where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church it was found. NomNomPizza quoted something from the Council of Trent, sisxth session, ninth canon, but I'm not sure that's what you were referring to.
I have not read that- I will check it out!
And while you are at it, have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church or just parts others have quoted as some sort of 'gotcha' quotes? If you haven't read it, you can pick up a copy at most any bookstore.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I'm not certain if it is in the catechism (could be an honest misrepresentation :) ) but I know it was in the Council of Trent and Vatican II.
I have not read that- I will check it out!

I don't think it was in Vat. II either.
 
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